Not Constructive, a place for the discussions not allowed on Stack Overflow

http://www.notconstructive.com

by andrewstuart • 13 years ago

176 196 13 years ago

notconstructive.com

arms• 13 years ago

Interesting idea, and even better name.

worldsayshi• 13 years ago

I feel like Discourse (http://www.discourse.org/) would have been a good fit for a site like this.

lnanek23• 13 years ago

Isn't the from the same creator? You can imagine the same bad moderation practices that squelch useful discussion will be baked in an encouraged.

ajanuary• 13 years ago

SO is a community, Discourse is a platform.

petercooper• 13 years ago

Haha, I've joked with a few people there needs to be a 'CrapOverflow' as a sort of cesspit of programming 'debate' so it's good to see someone following through. (Funnily enough, I just checked and Stack Exchange owns crapoverflow.com :-))

andrewstuart9• 13 years ago

Hopefully it's not a cesspit, rather a good place to ask questions such as "which language is best for building applications such as...etc" or "which is the best of the current crop of JavaScript MVC frameworks in late 2012" or other stuff that isn't strictly technical questions with well defined technical answers.

ircmaxell• 13 years ago

Interesting choice of questions.

Neither of which have an answer. Unless you want to discuss the fine details of the problem. In which case I'll hire your site to do the architecture for free next time I have a major project.

Questions like that aren't unanswerable. They are however unanswerable without knowing a lot about your specific case (requirements, skills, staff, infrastructure, etc). So they tend not to be QA because they either get surface treatment (leading people to make bad decisions on partial information) or they lead to abuse (people taking advantage of it).

mbesto2• 13 years ago

Honest question - do you genuinely believe someone (or a group of people) without 100% understanding of your project will be able to definitively tell you what language/framework is best for building your application? These types of subjects have been debated to death with the general conclusion ending up with "use the tool you are most comfortable with".

lubos• 13 years ago

What's the point submitting project that hasn't launched?

Not to mention there is http://programmers.stackexchange.com which is exactly "a place for the discussions not allowed on Stack Overflow" so really, what's the point?

ciex• 13 years ago

Testing the waters, getting valuable feedback, starting a conversation. What's the point of working on such a project if nobody is interested?

andrewstuart9• 13 years ago

So true. I have launched many projects to the sound of chirping crickets. There's a great deal to be said for building the momentum in advance of opening the doors.

TeMPOraL• 13 years ago

What's the point submitting project that hasn't launched?

I agree; it would be nicer if they finished at least an MVP before launching.

Not to mention there is http://programmers.stackexchange.com (...)

AFAIR it also has some track record of killing interesting and valuable discussions, so actually I think this product is a great idea.

lawl• 13 years ago

If it were we'd see "moved to programmers.stackexchange.com" instead of "closed as not constructive".

eksith6• 13 years ago

  > Not to mention there is http://programmers.stackexchange.com which is exactly "a place for the discussions not allowed on Stack Overflow" so really, what's the point?

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/201263/when-s...

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/202220/moving...

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/163004/what-i...

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/49806/reasons...

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/2815/what-wou...

JasonPunyon• 13 years ago

This was the original ill-fated purpose of programmers. from a few years ago. It's changed since.

antonwinter3• 13 years ago

what made it change?

ascendantlogic• 13 years ago

Seems like they're following lean principles. I have no problem with them seeing what the interest is before they start coding. Seems smart to me.

mbesto2• 13 years ago

Not Constructive is the place for open, subjective, opinionated, extended discussion about software development.

So...Quora?

andrewstuart9• 13 years ago

Quora is much broader in its scope and also has usage restrictions that make it basically useless.

Lapsa3• 13 years ago

It's doing great at increasing smug.

eksith6• 13 years ago

Quora is a walled garden (behind FB) which I sincerely hope this won't end up as.

Lapsa3• 13 years ago

And you must be "at least 13 years old". Unchecked that bullshit just to see what would happen and I got a notice, that I won't be able to retry till tomorrow. Impressive.

DanBC• 13 years ago

This is a great idea. I think. There's not much to go on from the minimal page.

Please would you consider changing the font colour for the email registration box? The text was very pale, and so it was very low contrast.

May I ask how moderation is going to be handled? Is there going to be some form of user voting?

What will you do with obvious trolls? Some people like engaging with trolls, and that can be harmful to the site.

How are you going to handle the 'hot button' topics that attract inflammatory responses?

andrewstuart9• 13 years ago

We're hoping people might choose to become moderators. We really don't want a nasty negative trollfest. The idea is not to allow open ended mud slinging matches. Rather to allow discussion about topics that aren't strict questions with one valid answer. Free flowing discussion about software technology and software development.

jerrya2• 13 years ago

What can I say? Like many people, I believe, I find the questions that have been closed, usually as "Not Constructive" to be the most helpful.

I don't understand Stack Overflow, but the weird negativity over there certainly keeps me from asking or answering questions there or at most of the stack exchange sites.

eksith6• 13 years ago

When the vibe turns to over-moderation I.E. strict enforcement to the point human beings are forced to act as functions with predictable output, it's tedious, Not Constructive (ironically) and overall unpleasant to even browse let alone ask questions.

ksrm• 13 years ago

reddit's AskScience[1] also suffered this fate.

[1] http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience

FooBarWidget• 13 years ago

Worse, when a moderator closes a topic, it stays closed, even when they're wrong. I recently asked a question, but moderators misunderstood my question so they closed it as offtopic. I explained my question in more detail, and it should have been apparently that it is clearly on-topic, but they didn't do anything about it.

jerrya2• 13 years ago

It's a very frustrating site. I take the time to carefully write up a question, and many things can happen to that.

  * it doesn't get answered
  * it gets closed pretty quickly (and usually in an offputting insulting manner)
  * it gets changed(!) and a question I didn't ask gets answered

I suspect there's a lot of frustrated wikipedians taking it out on Stack Exchange.

gortok3• 13 years ago

I see this happening in a few comments, so I'll address it here (Full disclosure: I'm a (diamond) moderator on Stack Overflow).

Whether your question is closed by a diamond moderator, or by the community, it can be re-opened with five community votes (or another moderator stepping in an re-opening it, which happens).

If your question is deleted by the community, it can be undeleted by the community. The only time a question cannot be undeleted by the community is when it's deleted by a moderator.

There's a difference between moderators, and community moderation. I see people using the word 'moderator' when they mean that five members of the community closed their question, and this isn't really correct (it makes it seem like a band of 12 people runs Stack Overflow, which is the furthest thing from the truth).

In your particular case, if you improve your question to address why it was closed, it will automatically be placed into the review queue to be re-opened. If five members of the community agree, it will be re-opened. If it still doesn't get re-opened, you can always open a meta question about it ( http://meta.stackoverflow.com ).

I wanted to address this because it's incorrect to say, "When a moderator closes a topic, it stays closed." That's just not the case.

If you link me to the question, I'll be happy to take a look at it and re-open it if it should be re-opened.

tudborg• 13 years ago

I actually like the strict style of Stack Overflow.

And i find the "Not Constructive" to be exactly that.

Yes, it can be annoying when a question is closed and you really wanted to discuss it, but the rules are quite clear on what is and is not classified as "Not Constructive", and the discussion should just move to some of the discussion threads instead.

And i don't know what you interpret as negativity? I have never seen unfair or non-objective use of moderator functions?

maggit• 13 years ago

I spend a lot of time on that site, and like you I generally think the strict criteria are a net positive.

However, I'd just like to add that I've seen lots of abusive language and misuse of powers to close/put on hold. Flagging of unnecessarily negative/harsh language is not in general followed up, which basically means that it is encouraged.

bane2• 13 years ago

Agreed, whenever I happen across a closed question, I always sit there and scratch my head "but that's a great question!". I think it's a similar phenomenon to the over deletionist problem on Wikipedia.

There's certainly questions on SO that should be moderated away, and WP articles that should be deleted. But there's so many of both kinds that are obviously genuinely good one has to wonder at the motivations of the people closing them.

maaaats5• 13 years ago

whenever I happen across a closed question, I always sit there and scratch my head "but that's a great question!"

So you're saying that every question ever closed that you have seen, should not have been closed? Then I think SO's moderators and users are not the problem.

peteretep• 13 years ago

That's confirmation bias - you "happen across" them when they're linked to from here

zacharypinter• 13 years ago

A while back I started noting the times I came across a stack overflow link that I was interested in and then sad to see closed.

Here's the list:

https://pinboard.in/u:zpinter/t:stackoverflow/

runn1ng• 13 years ago

And exactly because of this perceived negativity, SO recently changed their close criteria - right now, "Not Constructive" is not even an option in "close" voting.

antonwinter3• 13 years ago

definitely a step in the right direction. it can seem heavy handed when a question is closed. giving clear reasons and rules why is good thing

jaredmcateer• 13 years ago

"Primarily Opinion Based" is the new "Not Constructive"

gortok3• 13 years ago

While the reason was changed ("Not Constructive" isn't very descriptive and not easy to understand), the criteria for closing based on "Not Constructive" stayed around, we just split it into two close reasons that both have narrow-er focus:

1. Too broad - There are either too many possible answers, or good answers would be too long for this format. Please add details to narrow the answer set or to isolate an issue that can be answered in a few paragraphs.

2. primarily opinion-based - Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise.

These two close reasons capture the essence of what "Not Constructive" was meant to be, and are both much clearer to boot.

(Disclosure: I'm a diamond moderator on Stack Overflow: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/users/16587/george-stocker )

Lapsa3• 13 years ago

it used to be way better some time ago, when it just launched. people posted fun questions, played code golf, etc.

I stopped seeding after politcorrectness nazis were chasing me because of swear word I used (shouldn't be too much to ask for - Microsoft has done much worse to me). now I'm just a leech there.

canadiancreed• 13 years ago

People still play code golf. It's just now on it's own site.

http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/

ig1• 13 years ago

The problem with community startups is that the community drives the direction of the startup as much as the company.

Companies can either choose to let the community go in whichever direction they want or they can step in and shepherd the community in the direction they want the business to go in.

Apple does this when pick the kind of apps they'll allow in their store, Stack does this with the kind of questions they allow and Etsy does this with the kind of items they allow to be sold.

Allowing the community to follow a natural path isn't without risk, especially as it's often the people at the edge of the community who end up driving the overall community.

For example look at how having at how adoption of Loopt in the gay pickup community affected it's ability to grow as a more general purpose social network or more recently the impact the Indian population is having on Quora.

funnyshit101• 13 years ago

Get ready for heavy traffic. I have a search filter on SO for thread with a handy amount of votes that have been closed, mods are crazy on that site.

ronaldx5• 13 years ago

The problem is that the ideal place to host these discussions is... Stack Overflow.

Their policy on open questions is dead wrong.

brazzy2• 13 years ago

No, it's not. They have a clear purpose: they want the site to be useful. The definitive go-to site for programmers that have a question they need answered in a way that solves their problem.

Lengthy discussions can be interesting, but they don't solve problems. They're not useful. Therefore, Stack Overflow is not the right place for them.

Actually they even have a place for discussions: a chat feature that can be linked to from any question.

Karunamon• 13 years ago

Lengthy discussions can be interesting, but they don't solve problems.

The problem is that SE's criterion for a "lengthy discussion" is so moronically short that valuable and constructive questions are getting killed off. I echo the sentiment elsewhere in this thread that I have many a time had a question answered in a thread marked as "not constructive".

It's downright wrong and insulting.

jjindev2• 13 years ago

Their philosophy is that some people are better suited to judge usefulness than others. They apparently believe that a one-developer, one-vote system would not judge such questions "correctly."

rantanplan4• 13 years ago

"They have a clear purpose: they want the site to be useful"

Hmmm, you might want to re-think that one. I can't see how 200,000 questions(and answers) about how to do a for-loop in python(or insert here your fav language) is considered useful.

Don't try to sell me the "report as duplicate" functionality. It is rarely(compared to the content) used. And the reason is simple, look at the people who answer these questions! Some have a reputation in the hundred thousands. Rep farming at work!

SO is a great tool, but I think it's prime time is well behind us. Right now it has become a substitute for Google, by Javascript(mostly) kiddies, that somehow can't find the time to google their trivial questions - let alone read the documentation.

IMO unless they begin to "punish" such behavior, the quality of SO will continue to decline and people like me will begin to distance themselves even more, from this excellent(at some point) site.

EDIT: typo

ronaldx5• 13 years ago

Lengthy discussions can be interesting, but they don't solve problems. They're not useful.

Eh? Discussions between experts is exactly how difficult problems are typically solved, in reality.

smegel4• 13 years ago

Ha! Useful seems to be their main criteria for closing questions.

eksith6• 13 years ago

I have a favorite screw driver. On occasion, I use the back of it as a hammer and it works quite well in that capacity on some jobs.

The lengthy discussions have not only been interesting, they've often given me a swath of new ideas and approaches to a problem I haven't previously considered. Human brains don't function in binary and often move to ternary or quaternary switching or more to yield to a better result.

SO's conformity has a hopelessly awkward enforcement that is both unnatural for human beings and, is ultimately, Not Constructive. That's not my opinion; as the commenters on this thread have repeatedly shown, it's empirically observed fact.

Programming (hell, technology in generally) should be humane as they (should) ultimately serve humans and is advanced by humans. I refuse to not act like one.

willvarfar2• 13 years ago

Judging by the points by time by rank in the front page, I 'd say this has some flags. Which would be a shame, as that kind of censure is exactly what the site is against.

Every time there is any criticism of SO here, however constructive, the flaggers come out in force :(

richardwhiuk• 13 years ago

I suspect the flags are more likely because the title implies that there will be a discussion site, as opposed to just a launch page.

andrewstuart9• 13 years ago

Can you explain what "points by time by rank in the front page" means please?

willvarfar2• 13 years ago

This post right now has 130pts after 3 hours. And its way below 3 hour stories with 50pts on the front page.

jjindev2• 13 years ago

Who among us has not googled a problem, found the top hit at Stack Overflow, got our solution, and noticed also that the question was closed as not-something?

IMHO the whole thing can be handled by upvotes (as HN demonstrates, you don't even need downvotes)

finnw• 13 years ago

Can you give some examples?

My experience has been slightly different. I have often found stackoverflow questions (closed as NC or NaRQ) from google searches and thought "This is interesting, but I would be embarrassed if my boss saw me reading it."

lucb1e• 13 years ago

I was thinking about building this just yesterdaynight!

Coincidentally a community I used to really like is being flooded by noobs and trolls in the past few months, that was the actual trigger. I was thinking of creating a community that was more like a combination of Stackoverflow, Hackernews, and a few older members of that other community.

Anyway, it's funny how often things I thought of appear right the next day. I'm sure it's just coincidence or some other illusion, but it happens pretty regularly.

andrewstuart9• 13 years ago

Hey there, Andrew here, I'm the OP.

I want to be clear that I have the greatest respect for Stack Overflow. I think there has been nothing ever that has increased programmer productivity more than Stack Overflow. (quoting wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet) Fred Brooks said that "there is no single development, in either technology or management technique, which by itself promises even one order of magnitude [tenfold] improvement within a decade in productivity, in reliability, in simplicity." But Stack Overflow hadn't been born at that time. No language, operating system or compiler could ever have more impact on developer productivity than an effective global Q&A site for programmers - that's what Stack Overflow is and it is damn fine.

It's just that Stack Overflow would be diluted and weakened by allowing open ended discussion on software technology and development. People go to SO with questions for which they want a specific answer.

Not Constructive is intended to facilitate the valuable discussions about software that don't fit into that strict Q&A format. Not Constructive is for broader questions, and welcomes subjective opinion. It's not in conflict with SO, it's a complement to SO.

Please do sign up at http://signup.notconstructive.com if you're interested in hearing when we launch.

laurent123456• 13 years ago

It seems it's directly related to Stack Overflow but I wonder how both will be "connected"? Are you going to go to closed questions on SO and post a link to your website? Directly contacting authors of closed questions might also prove difficult since many users don't display their email address. Overall, I don't quite understand how it's going to work out. If there's no connection to SO (beside the questions being imported from there) then it's like any other forum.

antonwinter3• 13 years ago

if nc gets enough traction, the SO moderators may be able to provide an nc link when they close questions.

andrewstuart9• 13 years ago

There will be no direct connection with SO. Not Constructive is just a place to come to ask open ended questions about software development, where opinions and subjective answers are considered relevant and valid.

We won't be importing questions from SO.

jarofgreen• 13 years ago

Can I ask how the site will work? I guess from other comments you've made here and the fact you haven't just grabbed an open source package and launched already that you have some specific plan on how this community will be structured?

andrewstuart9• 13 years ago

We'll wait till launch for details.

gortok3• 13 years ago

I'm glad to see there are people making an effort to have a place for water-cooler chat and extended discussion. I hope this works out, just as I hope Slant.co ( http://slant.co ) works out. Thanks for taking the time to launch something like this, and good luck in your endeavors.

arh68• 13 years ago

No language, operating system or compiler could ever have more impact on developer productivity than an effective global Q&A site for programmers

Well that's just opinion. The text editor seems pretty important to me. Syntax coloring? Makefile?

Besides, how could one describe SO in a way that wouldn't include other sites just like it (Experts Exchange, etc)?

hermanschaaf• 13 years ago

No one here has mentioned Slant? I think it solves a similar problem quite well http://www.slant.co/

bijanv• 13 years ago

I was about to post the same thing. I think Slant is exactly the platform we're talking about here and it's already good to go!

bjourne• 13 years ago

+1! Slant.co works great because many "not constructive" questions are on the format "which alternative among $x is best for $y?" However, the site seem to be lacking in polish. For example, it doesn't remember your login and the procedure for updating and commenting on viewpoints is convoluted. Plus, there is no timestamps anywhere so it's hard to see what is going on on the site. Stackoverflow is much better from a usability perspective.

neya2• 13 years ago

I don't know who you are. But if you are the creator of this site, you have my respect from the bottom of my heart.

Stackoverflow was wonderful when it was started the way it was. The moderated content was extremely useful. But later, they decided to screw everything up by doing some stupid things like assigning too much power to moderators.

I always used to assume SO was more like the real world democracy; if something isn't right, you could fix it yourself being an ordinary citizen. However, on SO, that's not the case anymore. There is a moderator on top of the users who decides what's right and what's wrong. And he goes into a 'rage mode ON' by flagging genuinely useful questions as 'inappropriate' or 'not suitable for SO', as he pleases.

How can you challenge his decision? God knows. I've searched round the site to report moderators. Good luck with reporting some rogue moderator. I like the fact that you can flag something offensive easily, but I don't like the fact that it's not as easy for the reverse.

Forget the moderators. Let's say you want to ask something about security with sessions in PHP. Good luck finding answers on SO. Your question will be migrated to some weird subdomain.stakcoverflow.com for which you need a separate account to maintain and collect your badges from scratch, again.

That's why I knew there would be a day when someone would start something like this. Nonconstructive nails it for me. And hopefully for other disappointed SO fans too.

Thanks for creating this.

maaaats5• 13 years ago

If you don't like that a question was closed, flag to reopen (if you have over 2k rep I believe). If you don't understand why a questions was closed or feel a moderator is abusing powers, create a post on Meta and it will be dealt with. Then the voice of the users will overrule the moderator decision. Not that complicated, really..

I can't say I recognize the situations pictured in your rant.

albertzeyer• 13 years ago

Have you tried to do this?

Reopening usually never happens. Discussions in the comment section is totally useless and wasted time.

Discussions on Meta also just repeat that your question is not for SO.

wodow2• 13 years ago

Posting to Meta isn't obvious to anyone unfamiliar with SO/StackExchange.

speeder• 13 years ago

Actually, SO IS like a real world democracy.

Real world democracy frequently end like this... it is a natural evolution of sorts of democracy, and this is known since democracy exists (there are greek texts about the theme)

T-hawk• 13 years ago

Yes, and excellently stated. In any organization, power will be captured by those who are most interested in capturing power. Wikipedia and Stack Overflow are no exceptions.

pacifika• 13 years ago

The community becomes to big to be moderated like that. I've seen this happen back in the day for BBSes and the same happens still.

rmrfrmrf3• 13 years ago

I apologize in advance for sounding like an elitist prick, but in my mind, community-driven sites like StackOverflow, Reddit, Wikipedia, are prone to the noise of do-nothing armchair experts (especially in this economy with the unemployment rate) who have nothing better to do than stir philosophical debates over nothing.

As a person with a job who actually needs answers rather than reading through pages upon pages of discourse that goes absolutely nowhere, I appreciate StackOverflow's approach to moderation. StackOverflow is a place for specific questions and specific answers, not subjective nonsense questions like "how secure are sessions in PHP?" that, on this "Not Constructive" website, I imagine will be flooded with answers ranging from "PHP SUXXX LOL GO PYTHON" to "In my opinion, sessions are inherently broken blah blah blah". While the moderators may be able to mitigate these issues a little bit, the problem isn't so much with the answers as the question itself, which has no "correct" answer.

So, while I can see why people with a lot of free time might want to go to NotConstructive as a diversion, I foresee this site as little more than an informational black hole of back-and-forth BS.

eitland2• 13 years ago

I often find very much useful information in closed questions on stackoverflow.

What annoys me is karma-farming questions.

mkr-hn2• 13 years ago

I imagine something like the Ask* subreddits (with smart, but firm moderation) for programming would be good: http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience

Moderation is strictest at the root, and you can collapse all the trees with a link near the comment form. However, the discussion is the best part. It's where smart people share their knowledge, and other smart people add on to what was said or offer different takes. But you can stick to the root for the Stack Overflow style straight answers.

nostraspamus2• 13 years ago

Before assuming it's just going to be things like "PHP SUXXX LOL GO PYTHON" check out some of the questions that have been closed. Here's one I came across this morning on open source face recognition libraries:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/953714/face-recognition-l...

The original question was asked in June of 2009. It was marked as "protected" in June of 2010. Then it was closed as off topic in April 2013.

While it may be true that the question itself is not framed particularly well, the answers are really useful, including one from November, 2011 that was posted more than two years after the original question.

If the original question was considered off topic in 2013, then it was presumably also off topic in 2009 when it was originally asked. If it had been marked that way at that time, some very useful answers would never have appeared.

mgav4• 13 years ago

rmrfrmrf, You may have written the greatest comment intro of all time: "I apologize in advance for sounding like an elitist prick..."

neya2• 13 years ago

My frustration isn't fueled by sitting by an armchair and imagining about a philosophical problem that doesn't exist yet. I am talking about a REAL issue of Stackoverflow. While my php sessions example was average indeed, I would point you out some specific hurdles faced myself while using the site.

For example, while securing cookies for authentication (language independent, but try JAVA for this example), you could use two routes - Either Encrypt then HMAC it or, use something that combines this both by default (like AES-GCM). Now, if you search on this particular subject on SO, you would find genuine questions messed up and half of them migrated to crypto.stackexchange.com and the rest to security.stackexchange.com. And this is the crux of my parent comment.

Sorry if I appeared to be sitting on an armchair thinking about what debates I could stir while in reality I'm just like any other developer out there trying to find something useful from the site, hoping to make it better.

And yes, your apology for being an elitist prick is accepted.

Quarrelsome8• 13 years ago

My major disappointment with SO is how we lost the desire to be helpful and ended up with the desire to be "correct".

There are many questions that I would find helpful that get instantly closed because they are "not constructive". I'd like to hear my peers opinions on the respective merits of the latest javascript frameworks but that's "not constructive" so it gets shut down. I like to help people so I occasionally decipher weird English and try to work out what they need.... too often my submission of my reply is then blocked because the question has been closed. I dislike their rules about posting to jsfiddle (you must post enough code in SO for the question to stand alone). I dislike the cliquey and "current" aspect of meta. if you're late to the party then you've missed the discussion and we've already decided.

coldtea• 13 years ago

I apologize in advance for sounding like an elitist prick, but in my mind, community-driven sites like StackOverflow, Reddit, Wikipedia, are prone to the noise of do-nothing armchair experts (especially in this economy with the unemployment rate) who have nothing better to do than stir philosophical debates over nothing.

One man's "philosophical debate over nothing" is another man's passion.

And one man's "productivity" is another man's who gives a fuck.

cruise029• 13 years ago

Most of what you say here is just nonsense.

1. In the vast majority of cases, if you see something not right on Stack Overflow you can fix it yourself. Anyone at all, regardless of reputation, can suggest an edit to any post.

2. You can challenge moderator decisions on Meta Stack Overflow, which is linked at the top of every single page on the site. (Or, if you have enough reputation, you can just vote counter to most moderator decisions directly on the site. It is democratic.)

3. There are over 1,600 questions about security with sessions in PHP on Stack Overflow. http://stackoverflow.com/search?q=[php]+security+sessions+is...

viraptor5• 13 years ago

I have top disagree on point 2. One a question is deleted by a moderator you can only bring it up in meta. You can't vote to undelete anymore (maybe other moderators can?). For anyone who has powers gained through the points, mod's deletion is final.

And that's sometimes very annoying since those deletions require only one person. No voting, no double checking. Delete-happy mods can definitely abuse it.

kristianc• 13 years ago

3. There are over 1,600 questions about security with sessions in PHP on Stack Overflow. http://stackoverflow.com/search?q=[php]+security+sessions+is....

Yep, and the top search result (with the most upvotes) is locked. QED.

Quarrelsome8• 13 years ago

Good luck with 2).

There is a thing called tyranny by majority and most of the people who post on meta are mods and have a very specific frame of mind.

pmelendez4• 13 years ago

"2. You can challenge moderator decisions on Meta Stack Overflow, which is linked at the top of every single page on the site. (Or, if you have enough reputation, you can just vote counter to most moderator decisions directly on the site. It is democratic.)"

I had done that before, but it is not helpful nor democratic. For example I posted about a question I answered and that was closed as not a real question. Even when the issue was addressed, and it was accepted that the reason of closure didn't really apply to this case, it was reopened for a few minutes and then closed again for the same (invalid) reason.

At the end you can challenge whatever you want but the moderators that closed it on the beginning can close it again as many times as they want. They actually said that SO is not interested on generating new content since they already have a lot, so they will be really picky about what they consider a "good" question

ysbi• 13 years ago

There's so much nonsense in these few lines, I don't even know where to start disputing it...

For one, you can certainly fix things on SO. (I hváve a third or a fifth of the power necessary to kill or resurrect and question.)

Further, moderators do not flag. That's utterly wrong. Moderators react to flags – and they mostly do nothing more.

And the place to challenge them is rather easy to find: it's on httP://meta.stackoverflow.com. Now, I am not saying that all your problems would be solved when you post there (nor even indeed that I would agree with you that they are problems), but if you've been around for as long as you seem to imply and you still haven't found meta, then I will have to presume that there must be something wrong – on your end.

Also, there already is a place to make all those discussions, and you can even do them in realtime. It's the SO chat, and it's been there for years, with a link to it from every single page. (Note: Chatrooms are generally more relaxed than SO proper, but that doesn't mean they'll all be what you want them to be. Many of the older ones have acquired quite their own culture, and if you happen to burst through the door and trample over that, you might find yourself among a group of people who resent you having come in.)

Finally, there is not close-reason "not constructive" anymore. It's gone.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am the first to admit that some things are in dire need of improvement on SO, and it has turned me off enough that I likely haven't even given a dozen answers last year. But any critique should still be well-founded, or it will be ill-received.

fusiongyro• 13 years ago

I disliked S.O. for a long time, but the more I use it the better I like it. "The prisoner falls in love with his chains" as Dijkstra said. I only recently ran into the rogue moderator problem, in the Prolog section. If you don't know Prolog you really won't be able to tell whether there's enough information there or not. It's a real issue, and the appeal process is long and unpleasant.

tome• 13 years ago

I recently submitted a question to unix.stackexchange, and the next day (after it had been answered) a moderator came along and "improved" the layout of my question. Objectively the result was no worse than my original, and perhaps it was indeed better, but I can't help feeling like my private space was violated by that.

mgav4• 13 years ago

Tome, I've had the same thing happen, but I chalk it up to simply the way the site works, which I knew upfront. Occasionally, however, the "help" in refining my question isn't that helpful...

matsemann• 13 years ago

Your questions and answers aren't really "yours" on SE. That's the way it works. A bit unusual, but nothing wrong per se. Like Wikipedia, but that you still get credit for what you started.

sysop073• 13 years ago

I see this complaint an awful lot considering Stack Exchange literally tells you to go somewhere else if you feel that way: http://unix.stackexchange.com/help/editing

mgav4• 13 years ago

Another option is BOTHSIDER.COM (http://bothsider.com).

Tweet-sized opinions on both sides of any issue, including "not constructive" Stack issues.

We are up and running right now!

Disclosure: I'm a Bothsider Founder/CEO

mgav4• 13 years ago

I do generally like Stack's focus because I know exactly what I'll find when I get there: super-smart and helpful users (even if I do sometimes have questions beyond its scope).

edtechdev• 13 years ago

Great idea. Imagine seeing this on HackerNews posts, or reddit, etc., even popular posts that got plenty of upvotes and had substantial discussions going on:

"As it currently stands, this question is not a good fit for our Q&A format. We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or expertise, but this question will likely solicit debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion. If you feel that this question can be improved and possibly reopened, visit the help center for guidance. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question."

peteri• 13 years ago

Good about time. The number of times where I have a what technologies should I use do thing X kind of question and there isn't anywhere good to ask.

Might be worth looking at OSQA as platform.

wodow2• 13 years ago

Background from 2011: "Why does Stack Overflow sometimes seem so eager to close “off-topic” that happen to be VERY relevant to the programming community?"

http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/188405/why-does-stac...

j7mbo• 13 years ago

It's funny, "Not Constructive" doesn't exist any more as a reason for closing.

mataug• 13 years ago

I assumed this was what quora was for. But let's see how this matches up? If this just a clone then probably its going to have a hard time.

ionforce• 13 years ago

Quora is bad at/does not specialize in answers involving code/math.

jusben1369• 13 years ago

Small nitpick but you don't need the coma after "trolling" and you have the conjunctive "or" after that.

lnanek23• 13 years ago

Link is just a crappy sign up page, but I agree with the vast majority of comments here that some really great questions that would have been useful to me have been closed. So good to see some competition coming up!

As an experienced Android developer, for example, most of the questions I see that aren't closed are simple things answered by the docs. The things I see that are closed are things I actually myself have trouble with, like which monetization solution to go with.

smegel4• 13 years ago

Thankyou.

I detest stack exchange sites with a peculiar passion (I'm usually pretty relaxed about most things). Seeing incredibly useful and important questions closed for this very reason, and others mutilated by "gods" who have the right to alter questions as they see fit fills me with rage. I only end up on SO as a result of a google search, and I haven't bothered contributing for years.

Even worse is superuser ~ a couple of down voted questions and comments and you get banned for life, with no recourse. I don't know what kind of Nazis run that shop.

My 2c * avoid badges/karma/superpowers. It just creates an ego cult that is responsible for much of the problem. Wikipedia has this problem with elitist editors who think consensus amongst themselves trumps wikipedia's own rules. * Have a system of encouragement to improve poorly worded or duplicate questions. But any changes/closes/holds must be approved by the question owner. * Maybe think of a different name for the launch site. I'm not sure its possible to "reclaim" a word with so many bad memories attached.

recursive3• 13 years ago

Stack Overflow blog entry on why they stopped using "Not Constructive" http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2013/06/the-war-of-the-closes/

smegel4• 13 years ago

Oh dear good watching all the pro SO shills leap out in defence of their kingdom is making my eyes bleed. Please, please go back home.

cruise029• 13 years ago

Yes, everyone who disagrees with you should just go away. HN is not a place for two-sided discussion!

You would make a great Stack Overflow moderator.

smegel4• 13 years ago

Nice strawman...let me guess you vote left?

joeframbach• 13 years ago

Might as well 301 to news.ycombinator.com

krmmalik• 13 years ago

Well I signed up immediately. In the last 4 weeks alone, every single one of my posts on any of the stackexchange sites have been marked as "not helpful" , "not constructive" etc.

I ask a simple question regards a web app, and i thought it was a genuine and innocent enough question and it got closed. The watchman culture is a little too rampant now.

I'm glad this service exists and to learn that i'm not the only person affected by it.

Looking forward to the final product.

emddudley2• 13 years ago

ITT: wah, wah, StackOverflow doesn't work the way I want it to. I'm right and the mods are wrong.

If you don't like StackOverflow, go somewhere else. SO is successful because it has rules and boundaries. "Everything goes" just does not work well in online communities.

eksith6• 13 years ago

Isn't this is project an effort to make that somewhere else.

emddudley2• 13 years ago

Sure is, but there's not a whole lot you can say about a sign up page. Let me know once the project has launched... then we can have a discussion on how this site actually works (or doesn't, as the case may be).

My bet is that the site won't form a community and take off unless they put in some rules and boundaries. Then the complaining will start, and we'll come full circle.

murftown• 13 years ago

I have experienced that many of the questions I am most interested in are closed as "Not Constructive", seemingly to fulfill some artistic vision of the moderators and how they would like to "architect" the community. Very frustrating.

I also had a situation where I found a bug in some Python code on an accepted SO answer, submitted an edit, and had my fix repeatedly rejected by moderators. I tracked down one of the moderators' email and asked him about it, found out that he does not know Python and that he rejected my edit because it was already an accepted answer so why should I edit it? ...? In the end, after I persuaded him that my fix was helpful by getting other developers to testify that the existing code was broken and the fix fixed it...he posted my edit as his own and took credit for it.

_random_• 13 years ago

...or you could've started a new community here:

http://area51.stackexchange.com.

- wouldn't waste our time looking at yet another sign-up dummy page.

Not Constructive, a place for the discussions not allowed on Stack Overflow

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