Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-snowden-bolivia-idUSBRE9611AT20130703

by airnomad • 13 years ago

167 75 13 years ago

jgrahamc2• 13 years ago

FlightRadar24 has the recorded track of his flight, FAB1, here: http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2013-07-02/16:35/FAB1

The odd thing about the claim that Snowden was aboard is that FAB1 took off from Vnukovo but Snowden is apparently in Sheremetyevo.

Here's a picture of plane turning round over Austria and then descending and landing in Vienna: http://i.imgur.com/cuUQkWV.jpg

UPDATE: News reports say that FAB1 is leaving VIE shortly and it is now appearing on FlightRadar24's live view.

kriro• 13 years ago

I was not even aware that site exists. Pretty fascinating stuff, thx for posting.

I'm surprised Poland let him pass if Snowden was really supposed to be on board. US-Polish relations are generally pretty good.

Russia->South America without clashing with the US seems like an interesting problem. If Italy,France,Spain,Portugal is blocked you pretty much have to take a giant detour, go through Africa or try flying out east of Russia (which immediately puts you close to the US). Probably have to go on a very southeast route right away...which basically means he might have been better off going Hong Kong->Ecuador if he could have negotiated that option sooner

viraptor• 13 years ago

US-Polish relations are generally pretty good.

Are they that good? I got an impression they were pretty good while Poland was still promised things like joining the visa waiver program. Now I think many people are quite annoyed at the outcome / delaying for years. The whole project of rocket interception sites is also bringing up some interesting questions lately.

grey-area2• 13 years ago

It's just taken off again, according to that site:

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001

alan_cx3• 13 years ago

I know humor doesn't work so well here, but FAB1? Seriously? International rescue?

No?

I'll get my coat.

jgrahamc2• 13 years ago

Yes, I had the same thought. The Bolivian Air Force is Fuerza Aérea Boliviana, hence FAB.

buro9• 13 years ago

Now we know what will happen to Snowden if he is granted asylum by a country that can only be reached by flight.

The flight permits will be rescinded, the plane forced to land and subjected to a search, and if Snowden is present I suspect he will be arrested and extradited to the USA on the basis that the asylum is invalid on the grounds that it was not granted in the destination country.

Russia really is his best chance.

Edit: Which makes me wonder, did Bolivia help spread this rumour (on behalf of Ecuador or Venezuela) to test what would happen

Irishsteve• 13 years ago

I think searching a government / diplomatic plane isn't allowed.

acqq2• 13 years ago

Tell that to Spain:

"9.27am BST Morales said he refused a request by the Spanish authorities to inspect his plane in Vienna and has not been granted permission to use Spanish airspace, according to Reuters."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...

acqq2• 13 years ago

re: "did Bolivia help spread this rumour"

No sane state president would risk his own flight safety "to test what would happen."

They president, the delegation and the crew now unnecessarily spent the whole night at the airport for chrissake!

anentropic2• 13 years ago

yeah but a 3rd party might spread the rumour to test the waters, eg Russia

iwwr• 13 years ago

Could he take a more circuitous route, through Russian territory up to the Far East and then across the Pacific to some friendly South American country?

zokier3• 13 years ago

the plane forced to land

Forced how? I doubt anybody would be willing to shoot a civilian plane down to get Snowden, especially if the plane in question was also carrying a president or other high ranking people. So the pilot could relatively safely ignore any demands to land.

marvin2• 13 years ago

They still have to refuel...

Create• 13 years ago

aircraft maintenance, Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (incident response observation)

mzs• 13 years ago

"Officials in Russia, which has made clear it wants Snowden to leave, say an embassy car would be considered foreign territory if a country picked him up."

From Reuters:

http://www.voanews.com/content/snowden-aslym-options-dwindle...

There are embassies for Ecuador, Venezuela, and Iceland in Moscow.

EDIT: Oh and Bolivia too.

ChuckMcM• 13 years ago

I would not put it past anyone in this circus (which the US is making) taunting the US by letting such a rumor slip in order to see what is what.

If that is true, and this was the American response, then is suggests we (the Americans) are more frazzled than we should be at this point. Whom ever is heading up the recovery effort in DC is making poor decisions at this point.

osivertsson2• 13 years ago

Guardian is doing pretty good live reporting on this fascinating story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...

runn1ng• 13 years ago

It's funny how this story goes international.

From Hong Kong/Peking to Moskow, to Austria/France, to Venezuela.

mtgx4• 13 years ago

It's good that just like with the Wikileaks scandal, it exposes which countries are vassals to US.

kkkaaa• 13 years ago

imagine the chinese would force Obama to land in Bolivia because they think he is carrying Ai Weiwei.

cskau• 13 years ago

The Extradition Treaties states that one of the many things you can be extradited for is "unlawful imprisonment". Realizing that, I figure the world community at large could request to have say Bush and/or Obama extradited for the things going on in Guantanamo.

Of course they might object that these fellows enjoy diplomatic immunity and that it's completely ludicrous. But if this incident has shown us anything I believe it's that US & Friends really don't care much about such minor details.

camus• 13 years ago

That tells a lot about all these European countries that are just puppets of the US government,especially France where I come from... Maybe we should stop the hypocrisy and let Washington govern us directly, we could save a lot of money this way.

petercooper• 13 years ago

This was actually briefly discussed between the UK and US in the 70s: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-...

mtgx4• 13 years ago

That's funny, going from wanting to be the US' "51st state" to not even wanting to be a full EU member, which I think makes a lot more sense (to be one).

Shivetya• 13 years ago

Not so much puppets but they certainly don't want to encourage anyone within their intelligence apparatus to follow in Snowden's footsteps.

I really wish some country would have stepped up and taken him in. While I do not fully support his actions we are far to close to the results of what a one world government would be like. No place to run, no place to hide

megablast• 13 years ago

I think it is more "don't throw stones if you live in a glass house" reason.

nsns• 13 years ago

Did the US just facilitate Snowden's asylum? They seem to be locked in eternal overreach.

phyalow• 13 years ago

Yeah tell that to Kim Dotcom. The US seemingly have no respect for sovereignty or foreign process.

vidarh3• 13 years ago

In both cases they seem to be overplaying their hand. Dotcom has a very real chance of getting off largely because the way it was handled have included such blatant disregard for the law. E.g. without the revelations of illegal spying, and the massive overkill of the way his arrest was handled, it might have been a lot easier to gentle "suggest" things to a judge and make the whole thing go away. Instead they've ensured that it's really hard for the judges involved to not treat this seriously.

Same with Snowden - creating a diplomatic incident that now has pretty much every Latin American leader screaming bloody murder and have officials describing it as virtually a kidnapping, and complaining about colonialism, means European countries and others will quickly start seeing that there's a very high potential price to pay for bending to US demands in this, in a case where they likely have little sympathy to the US position in the first place given that pretty much all of them have faced revelations of US spying targeting them. If the US keeps pushing like that, they might just find that someone will snap and decide to tell them to go to hell.

It'll be interesting to see if they manage the balancing act of pushing just hard enough to keep everyone in line without pushing anyone too far.

omegant2• 13 years ago

They don't seem to be handling this very intelligently, more like a bully than anything else. It would be much easier to let Snowden get to a country in southamerica and then after some weeks press under the table to get him arrested. Now doing all this pressing all they get is Snowden in China or Russia's arms.

mattvot• 13 years ago

If you assume the goal of all this is to deter future leaks, I'd say they are doing a pretty good job. Snowden has so much uncertainty and risk in the next few weeks that I bet borderline whistle-blowers are rethinking their plan.

Arresting him quietly without the media gets them Snowden, but not the deterrent.

mtgx4• 13 years ago

A funny comment I picked up from Reddit:

"Bolivia should cut all cocaine exports to the US, and push Colombia to do the same, within a week you would see all US politicians panicking and killing each others trying to check first into rehab"

tptacek• 13 years ago

That's funny because, what, all US politicians use cocaine?

eliasmacpherson• 13 years ago

Table B.7 Cocaine Use in Past Year, by Age Group and State: Percentages, Annual Averages Based on 2006 and 2007 NSDUHs District of Columbia 5.10 [1]

DC out in front by more than a nose, historically too. Probably not just politicians at the trough though.

[1] http://oas.samhsa.gov/2k7state/AppB.htm#TabB-1

RivieraKid3• 13 years ago

I wonder what would happen if the plane simply refused to leave Spain's or France's air space and continued on their flight.

mossplix• 13 years ago

miltary escort

RivieraKid3• 13 years ago

elaborate please

RivieraKid3• 13 years ago

Reason for two downvotes?

shell0x• 13 years ago

It's sad to see that France and Portugal go this way. No one should support the government of the United Shit of America, especially when you know they are spying on you.

tcoppi• 13 years ago

AP is now reporting that France didn't block the plane: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NSA_SURVEILLANCE?S...

wslh• 13 years ago

Spreading a rumour like this is a good way to assess yourself about friends and enemies waiting for the real "implementation".

tome2• 13 years ago

Is it usual to ask planes carrying criminal suspects to be forced to land?

haakon• 13 years ago

Nothing is "usual" about the Snowden situation, anyway.

tome2• 13 years ago

I'm trying to gauge whether this is a genuinely strange situation by the standards of international policing.

muyuu2• 13 years ago

It was not forced to land directly, they were denied entry to airspace and they had to land to refuel, unable to reroute within their fuel limits.

stfu2• 13 years ago

Question: Wouldn't it be super easy to check a private plane for how many passengers are on board? Just watching the passengers board with a thermographic camera should do the trick.

ig1• 13 years ago

It would probably be an illegal search in violation of diplomatic immunity.

(airports aren't allowed to scan diplomatic pouches)

stfu2• 13 years ago

I'm sure there is some obscure aviation security policy that makes this a maintenance requirement...

ImprovedSilence• 13 years ago

Why are there no news reporters just "traveling" the same airport as Snowden, Reporting on the situation and taking new pics. I can't be that easy to hide in an airport, and it can't be that hard to wander around an international airport for awhile when waiting for a long layover... something about the reason we haven't had any of that kind of reporting smells pretty fishy to me... also, how many CIA agents do you think have "traveled" through that airport in the past few days, keeping tabs on things...?

Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

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