Der Spiegel says US bugged EU offices in Washington

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/der-spiegel-says-us-bugged-eu-offices-in-washington/

by sk2code • 13 years ago

202 65 13 years ago

e3pi2• 13 years ago

"... The information appears in secret documents obtained by whistleblower Edward Snowden that

====> SPIEGEL has in part seen. <====

A "top secret" 2010 document describes how the secret service attacked the EU's diplomatic representation in Washington."

...

"... For weeks now, new details about Prism and other surveillance programs have been emerging that had been compiled by whistleblower Snowden."

Am I correct inferring there are Snowden leaked docs passing about beyond distributors The Guardian and the Washington Post?

For example, suppose Wikileaks have the entire 'Snowden stack' and its worker bees' 'discovery' pass up to a dispatcher deciding: if, who -receives it? This has been going on for the past ~month?

This is the first evidence I've encountered. Anything else?

nieve• 13 years ago

Snowden has been releasing documents steadily & feeding stories to other outlets(1) and has stated he has quite a few more stashed with people who will decrypt and distribute the full set immediately if anything happens to him. Given that what we've seen has been cherry-picked from what appears to be a much larger collection and he's stated he has more, the odds are pretty high. He's probably passing some to Wikileaks, but I'd be surprised if they have the full dump.

(1) The South China Morning Post out of Hong Kong broke the PacNet story: http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266875/exclusive...

jlgreco2• 13 years ago

You can use asterisks for emphasis.

weinzierl• 13 years ago

Coauthor of the Spiegel article is Laura Poitras. If I remember the story correctly she was the first person contacted by Snowden regarding the leaked documents (even before Greenwald).

She is probably the link between Snowden and Spiegel.

antocv3• 13 years ago

Poor woman.

Lets make a list of all the journalists that are a link between Wikileaks/Manning/Snowden and a journal, then we can look back 5, 10 years from now to see in what accident they each died.

e3pi2• 13 years ago

Excellent field work Ludwig, again HN's Munchen's desk amply demonstrates operatives in the field return the best and most decisive intel.

By the way, I encountered last night Walter Ruttmann's 1927 fascinating hour long classic silent film celebrating Weimar Berlin: The few autos, centric of trains, many horses, trams, new to me architecture long ago gone, men in hats, intense machinists in factories, and foundries' men at work:

http://archive.org/details/BerlinSymphonyofaGreatCity

You familiar with this?

My favorite Paul Graham essay you forensically dissected with your profiling tools, wc: 362, is `The Roots of Lisp'. I do the most rudimentary lisp, but this Conway introduction shared with me PG's enthusiasm and excitement focusing on lisp's eval, which I've wondered about forever and still do.

mpyne• 13 years ago

xorgar831• 13 years ago

A spy organization caught spying, shocking.

tokenizer3• 13 years ago

so the EU is the US's enemy? I mean, I always figured spying was a form of warfare.

The definition is: "An agent employed by a state to obtain secret information, especially of a military nature, concerning its potential or actual enemies."

As far as I'm concerned, people should be more concerned about this, unless they feel like they agree with their governments actions as valid, thus confirming they do in fact believe the EU is a potential enemy.

If that's the case, I feel the EU should take some drastic measures against the US.

carbocation2• 13 years ago

France spies on Germany. Should Germany take "drastic" measures against France?

gonehome• 13 years ago

There are friendly nations, but no friendly intelligence services.

tkahn63• 13 years ago

EU nations spy on the US. That's not up for debate. It is a fact.

That's how the world works.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/30/world/us-expanding-its-eff...

fauigerzigerk4• 13 years ago

Apparently Israel is spying on the US as well. I get the impression that everyone is spying on everyone else all the time. What concerns me most about spies spying on spies and politicians is the cost to tax payers everywhere.

This thing doesn't bother me in the same way as when they're spying on me, because I care about my privacy and safety but as an EU citizen I don't care much if the US finds out something about EU negotiation tactics or whatever they're after.

That it's not between enemies is exactly why it doesn't matter much. It's just an expensive playground for a self-important security aparatus.

brown9-2• 13 years ago

I mean, I always figured spying was a form of warfare.

Here is the problem - you are starting from a bad assumption.

mtgx• 13 years ago

Spy agencies were supposed to spy on the "bad guys", not on every single citizen of all the other countries - and then send back the data to those local governments.

hackinthebochs4• 13 years ago

Intelligence agencies are in the business of intelligence; enemy or friend is not a relevant distinction. Why is it a surprise that intelligence agencies would spy on "friends"? Why are people so damn naive?

Vivtek2• 13 years ago

So if the Air Force starts bombing Germany, you'll say "A military caught killing people, shocking"? How is this intended to sound like a contribution to discussion?

n09n2• 13 years ago

If we were at war with Germany and yet people were shocked that it took place, that would be an appropriate response to remind everyone of reality. I don't know what you think the EU has done that prevents it from being an acceptable target for American espionage.

coldtea4• 13 years ago

Yes, let's apply it to something else:

"A rapist caught raping women, shocking".

Because an organisation doing what it was created for, totally justifies that thing, right?

n09n2• 13 years ago

Not the same thing. A "rapist" generally isn't someone whose job is to rape people all day. If he were, the newsworthy aspect would be that such a position exists, not that the person in that position has raped someone. But we all understand that espionage exists as a normal part of relations beteween nation-states, and the NSA and CIA exist solely to do it.

nslocum• 13 years ago

"Trust, but verify"

It would be foolish for a country to blindly trust bureaucrats from other nations, even allies. That's why it's common for friendly nations to do extensive spying on each other. Any government who didn't at least try to do so would be doing a disservice to its people.

PavlovsCat2• 13 years ago

It would be foolish for a country to blindly trust bureaucrats from other nations

I don't trust random people either. That doesn't make me spy on them, since I couldn't care less what they talk among themselves, it's none of my business. Also, the second I start spying, I also would need to spy on even more, to see if they're on to me spying on them. Yay, there goes the whole afternoon!

It's just redefining everyone to be a potential enemy, because the objective is total control. Amongst individuals it's obvious only psychos or people with something (real fucking ugly) to hide would do that, to anyone but said psychos.

Why would nations be different? Because we're in them? Why is it so hard to accept that a lot of what we consider normal actually is insane, doesn't achieve the claimed objectives, and prohibits a whole range of actually worthwhile ones?

coldtea4• 13 years ago

I don't trust random people either. That doesn't make me spy on them, since I couldn't care less what they talk among themselves, it's none of my business.

You maybe. But when there are multi-trillion dollar trade agreements in order, and the top dog (US) wants to push a weak bureacratic constellation of nations (EU) in it's favor, then the thing changes.

It's even worse to any trade agreement with lesser nations (think Mexico, Latin America, Africa, etc).

Why is it so hard to accept that a lot of what we consider normal actually is insane, doesn't achieve the claimed objectives, and prohibits a whole range of actually worthwhile ones?

Well, if the objectives are "get the upper hand on the negotiations" (including "bribe/blackmail individuals involved in them to rule in our favor", then it very much achieves them.

chmike• 13 years ago

Spying for your personnal enlightment is one thing. Using that information and interferring to bent the course of things in your own interrest is anotherr. There is no clear line between the two and it is easily crossed. So assuming it's only a matter of spying is in my opinon a little bit naïve.

That's also the reason why spying people is something to worry. Who controls what is done with the inormation ? How could one defend against abuse of a state? This will be like drones killing civilians ! No one cares. Until it's your turn, and no body will care.

Vivtek2• 13 years ago

So you're cool with China finding out American stealth bomber plans, right? That's just their fiduciary duty, so to speak?

You're OK with Russia having a video bug in the Oval Office? Israel tapping the phones of everybody in Congress? Japan listening in on board meetings of the Fortune 500?

antocv3• 13 years ago

All of those are not just real possibilities, but you should be surprised if that isnt the case. Israel has access to NSA data.

USSR bugged the US embassy in Moscow for decades, using a laser.

A few years back, EU found the Parliament building was bugged, surprisingly the buggs where not installed after construction, but during, by US, somehow the construction guys were involved. The entire building was surveilled at all times. If you google it will appear, but if my memory serves this is from earlier than 2010.

dinkumthinkum3• 13 years ago

I'm not sure what your sarcasm proposes. So is your plan to mark this day as the day that all nations become friendly to each other or something? It sort of is what it is and nations have to do what they have to do. Personally, I think equating the US with brutal regimes like those of China and Russia are a bit silly, but ok.

oellegaard• 13 years ago

I honestly think the EU should make it clear that our friendship with the US cannot be uphold with serious breaches such as this one.

Its your good friend spying on your and your wife having sex, not because he needs to, but because he wants to know everything. With countries or persons, you can only be true friends if you trust that you are told what you need to know, you shouldn't have to acquire information yourself.

_k• 13 years ago

Meanwhile the EU thinks it's a good idea to negotiate a new EU - US trade agreement. And it's a good idea, but not when one side is spying on the other. They should place it on hold.

antocv3• 13 years ago

EU is also spying on US, it just hasnt turned into a scandal yet.

Its not out of malice or intent to hurt the other party, its just pure power, information is power. Who knows most at the negotiating table wins.

dinkumthinkum3• 13 years ago

This is just misplaced indignation. As long as there have been countries, even friendly nations have conducted espionage against each other. Give me a break.

epo• 13 years ago

The US isn't 'friends' with anyone, except in the Facebook sense of "I've heard of you".

Der Spiegel says US bugged EU offices in Washington

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