Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

http://rapgenius.com/albums/Abominablehoman/Baby-s-first-meditation-retreat

by iball • 13 years ago

77 56 13 years ago

rdl• 13 years ago

I have always been suspicious of those new age/meditation/etc. resorts.

This really shows off the ability to use the Rap Genius platform to annotate writing; I wish there were something like Goedel Escher Bach Genius.

bornhuetter2• 13 years ago

There is nothing new age about Goenka meditation courses, and it's definitely not a resort. It's 10 days of hard work, but it's well worth it. It's also purely donation basis (you donate at the end, and it's optional), which I think really helps.

gverri3• 13 years ago

Lol. You haven't even read the link.

Vipassana meditation is not a resort. You can't even speak with other people. It's just a 10 day, hardcore meditation training.

Plz, don't be a moron. At least look at the facts: http://scholar.google.com.br/scholar?hl=pt-BR&q=meditation&b...

peregrine• 13 years ago

The last section on cultish teachings seems like a deal breaker for me. I've read this a couple times and I just want to go to this place, and meditate in a safe place.

I don't really want to be preached to.

iball4• 13 years ago

(OP here) I feel you, but did you read the caveat to all the criticisms? http://news.rapgenius.com/1620770

On balance, it's pretty chill. Even the people who totally buy in and devote huge portions of their life to this organization are mostly just really into meditation (as opposed to, say, devotion to the organization or the man behind it). Though some of tactics are kind of strong-arm-y, the emphasis is always on getting you to practice a very simple, effective form of meditation

benjamincburns4• 13 years ago

Have you found a version of this that isn't at all preachy or "strong-arm-y?"

I feel like a huge benefit to meditation is that it allows people to arrive at their own conclusions. But what I worry about is that the "guidance" you'd receive in situations like this is more guidance to a set of predetermined ideals or conclusions, rather than guidance into how best to find your own. It's incredibly hard to do anything so deeply introspective without bumping up against existential issues. I feel like having someone guide you through this process requires a ridiculous amount of trust in how they value your individualism.

As an anecdote, my wife just competed her 200 hour yoga teacher certification which included a two day retreat to an ashram. Like you said about being told that the chanting is not rite or ritual, they constantly said that yoga isn't spiritual or religious. But in surveying the whole of yoga there are definitely parts of it that are at least "mystical" if not religious. For some of it you can just say "they're not being literal, this is metaphorical" but other parts, such as the chakras, are hard to see through that lens [Edit: as another lesser-known example, see mudras, hand [1] or otherwise]. And then even where there isn't any mysticism there is plenty of "holistic" discipline or rigor being taught.

When I went to her graduation ceremony one of the fellow students told me that the biggest thing that she got out of the training was the knowledge that when we die, our energy lives on. While this is literally true, she clearly meant it in a very spiritual sense.

As a complete outsider it's hard not to see this in a religious light. To the issue of trust in those who are guiding your introspective thoughts, I see this situation as a huge barrier.

1: http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explana...

kemiller4• 13 years ago

Thanks for posting this. It's nice to know someone had such a similar ride. Makes me wonder if we all were experiencing something similar. I'm considering doing it again, and this reminded me.

bornhuetter2• 13 years ago

It's really not so bad. I've done 3 Goenka courses and I have no religious affiliation (neither before nor after). He does say some things that are definitely coming from a Hindu mindset/bias, but 99% of the course is just about meditation plain and simple.

kemiller4• 13 years ago

I'm with you there. OP's experience is startlingly similar to mine. I hated the chanting, the obvious eastern cultural bias (an overzealous assistant told me not to point my feet at the TV while GoenkaHeadroom was talking), the vague conservative morality, the claims to nonsectarianness while still referencing reincarnation, etc. But the technique really works, and the gestalt of their teaching method does work, and I was, also, literally a different person than when I went in.

I'll say this for the chanting: by the time it starts up at about minute 55, it is the sweetest sound you can possibly imagine.

hosh9• 13 years ago

- There are good reasons for the feet thing, but ultimately ... someone who has great equinmaity won't be bothered much by your feet pointing at him, or not pointing at him, your zealous worship, your respect, your lack of respect, or your disrespect. So someone who gets upset over that, well, if the teacher remains equanimous, that means the one who is thrashing is the student.

- The overzealous assistant has his own thing going on, and so do you. That's actually an AWESOME interaction to have. How do you feel about it? Where is coming from your body? Good fodder for vipassana.

- The Trappist monks has the same practiced with a different set of cultural bias. Something to investigate.

- You can look up Daniel Ingram's book, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. It's a little advanced, but the coolest thing about his book is that the framework he talks about is flexible enough that you can see the underlying practice regardless of cultural biases.

  - When you reach a tipping point of realization, you find yourself not at all bothered by these cultural biases or little difference. The essential practice is still the same.

  - The conservative morality and reincarnation falls out of the insights people have doing these practices. Ingram has a great teaching, that morality is putting the realization you received on the cushion in every day life. It might manifest as conservative, it might not. The important thing is that *you* are living the realizations you received through your practice. The labels, conservative or otherwise, eventually fall away.

  - Likewise, it is quite all right for you not to believe in reincarnation. You do this long enough, you start finding things about incarnation cycles. Until you've had those experiences, that one is a tough one to swallow for most people. And why should they accept it when they have not directly realized it?

santu11• 13 years ago

Hey, I have done the course multiple times. It is not cultish at all.

Even though some rules like not pointing the feet, segregation etc. look very rigid. But they make perfect sense as you understand the concept behind it all.

The rules are made so that there is as little disturbance as possible to your meditation practice. In an ideal meditation retreat of this kind, a person stays alone and meditates alone. So some rigid rules are made to help create such a condition.

The best thing what I liked was I did not have to believe in anything to start with. You benefit a lot if you practice the meditation and forget about understanding every piece of information.

Alex39173• 13 years ago

"The last section on cultish teachings seems like a deal breaker for me."

I've done the same program at the same location, and it's really not cultish at all. Essentially you're not allowed to do anything that would distract you (or others) from meditating, and that's it. (E.g. you're not allowed to talk with others or eat junk food, as with most similar programs.) The teachings obviously come from a certain sect of buddhism, but that's why you're there. Yes, Goenka does make some counterintuitive claims about the underlying nature of the universe, but the basis for those claims are phenomenological experiences that people have had while meditating; they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it.

There are certainly a few aspects that are less than ideal, e.g. there isn't really any way to get medical advice if you need it apart from just quitting the program. But other than that it's hard to complain. It's free, the food is amazing, the quality of instruction is very high, the people are great, etc.

benjamincburns4• 13 years ago

they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it

I ask this very non-rhetorically - do you believe that this is a totally natural convergence of thought, or is it possible that this is the progression of thought that this particular set of guidance will lead you toward?

gohrt• 13 years ago

you're not allowed to talk with others
the people are great

hosh9• 13 years ago

Those are more likely your own projections and hangups. It's ok though. For example, there is no "safe" place to meditate, though some places are more stimulating and dynamic than others.

There's enough literature out there that you can give vipassana a try on your own. It may be harder to be honest about yourself, but you don't have to meditate in a group or at a retreat.

billyshih• 13 years ago

I did this 10 day retreat and it turned my life around for the better. I wasn't having any life shattering problems, but was just uncomfortable with my life, e.g. confused about career and whether I should stay with my girlfriend.

I did not feel that it was cultish or strong-arm-y at all. Yes, they have rules, but most of them really do help with meditation or they are just cultural rules, which is fine. If I go to church, even though I don't believe it, I'm ok with dressing decently, sitting where I'm supposed to and not yelling in the middle of it. They even tell you that you don't have to chant if you don't want to (I never did.)

Keep in mind that this is all volunteer run, so your experience will vary based on who is managing the course as well as the location of the course. So your experience with a strict course manager/teacher will be different with someone more chill.

I pointed my feet at the TV all the time and no one ever gave me crap about it.

At the end of the day you get 10 days of meditation teaching, lodging and food for free. If you get nothing out of Vipassana, at least you got to learn how to be away from everything for 10 days.

I got that and much more from the experience.

hosh9• 13 years ago

I got a kick out of the Criticisms section. It looks like he's got a lot of stuff to work out but overall, a great experience.

shiven• 13 years ago

As always, the HN crowd gravitates towards the negative (strong-arm-y, cultish etc.) instead of looking at the entire package and focusing on putative benefits. Just because you don't like the wrapper don't mean the candy ain't tasty (or nutritious or enjoyable)! Pffft! HN, get a grip. Hack your mind, don't give in before you even try! I know, skeptic is the new smart, but that shouldn't be an excuse to summarily discount an idea/concept/practice.

blueprint5• 13 years ago

What is the practice of meditation taught there, and what result in a human life do they have if they practice the meditation?

vidarh5• 13 years ago

Vipassana. The "western" name of the meditation practice is generally given as insight or mindfulness meditation.

In terms of benefits, consider meditation a tool to understand your mind and to be better able to understand your drives and motivations, and to learn how to focus your attention on various aspects of yourself. What "result" you get from that depends very much on you and your motivations and desires, but what I feel I get from it is a stronger appreciation of the world around me, better concentration, and better impulse control.

A particular a-ha moment for me was how I feel I started noticing when I started rationalizing to myself why I should buy comfort food. It was a distinct feeling of "looking in" and getting to catch my mind in action concocting excuses for why I should give in and buy that chocolate that doesn't fit with my diet, early enough to make it easier to stop them. In other words it feels like it makes it easier to exercise willpower.

Note there's a lot of opinion and feelings here. There is actual scientific data on vipassana style meditation, but I'm a sceptic, and I know full well that some or all of the benefits I believe I see from it could be placebo, or unrelated to the meditation (perhaps it's just because I get more rest), and I certainly haven't measures them. But frankly, I'm also of the opinion that it doesn't matter all that much - if it's a placebo, it's a damn good one, that makes me feel good.

Try it for yourself and see. It is not a big investment in time.

A good and mostly secular introduction free of "woo" is Mindfulness in Plain English. It is available for free in non-DRM'd digital versions here: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html or you can buy the paper version of Amazon.

It is notable for very popular amongst non-buddhists, including skeptics/atheists for it's lack of religious content. There are some scattered references to buddhism, but they are mostly providing context and explanation of the background of vipassana, and to me at least, as a lifelong hardline atheist, were not particularly obnoxious.

The Urban Dharma site also have a lot of other introductory resources - I'd particularly recommend the "Introduction to Meditation" audio series by Gil Fronsdal.

happimess• 13 years ago

better concentration, and better impulse control.

I have not done a 10 day sit as described in TFA, but I've had a passably regular Vipassana-style meditation practice for a few years now, and concentration and impulse control have been two major benefits in my life.

One thing that comes with impulse control, but I find valuable enough to merit mentioning on its own, is that I am now much better at letting go of thoughts. I used to have difficulty with intrusive thoughts--fantasies of violence or humiliation that would play on loop in my mind. Now, they appear, drift once through my mind, and are gone. This also applies to getting songs stuck in my head.

For context, I grew up in the Christian church, identify as atheist, and have only a mild intellectual interest in the spiritual trappings of the tradition from which meditation comes to me.

blueprint5• 13 years ago

In terms of benefits, consider meditation a tool to understand your mind and to be better able to understand your drives and motivations, and to learn how to focus your attention on various aspects of yourself. What "result" you get from that depends very much on you and your motivations and desires, but what I feel I get from it is a stronger appreciation of the world around me, better concentration, and better impulse control.

You said that it's a tool which can accomplish better understanding. Did you become to understand your mind and what causes you have? You say you have concentration but I'd like to confirm what you can see with your concentration.

In the world, an answer is determined by a question. Like in math, 1 + 1 is a problem that makes the result 2 according to a fixed formula. If someone finds 1 or 3 from the question then it's either their mistake in calculation or the causes (numbers in question) were misreported.

jeena• 13 years ago

I did the 10 days too and even though it was a great exercise it didn't really change anything in my life. I assume it is because I have always been a calm person.

igmor• 13 years ago

Is there a way to get similar introduction to meditation without spending 10 days on it in a wild and listening to all that chanting? Some kind of good old western rational approach to it.

fernly• 13 years ago

Find a local Buddhist meditation group. They'll have at least weekly "sittings", often more frequently. Just recently this searchable list of north american sanghas went up:

http://buddhistinsightnetwork.org/sanghas

If you are in the SF Bay Area, the Insight Meditation Center in Redwood City is the home for Gil Fronsdahl, cited above.

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/

Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

Related Stories