The Economics of the American Prison System

http://www.smartasset.com/blog/news/the-economics-of-the-american-prison-system/

by mcarvin • 13 years ago

82 77 13 years ago

smartasset.com

btilly• 13 years ago

I don't care how interesting the article is. I do not want to deal with the spammy popups.

philipcamilleri• 13 years ago

Sorry about that. We've disabled that right now...

bokchoi• 13 years ago

I still see it

burkemw3• 13 years ago

I just got the popup twice...

VLM• 13 years ago

The prison industrial complex comes up once in awhile on HN. Its hard to think of a startup topic. Mostly because prisons (including private ones) have been around so long.

Maybe a startup designed solely to imprison IP violators, or solely to hold patent violators or people who break private website terms of service or something like that.

Maybe a robot guard (or guard tower) to be teleoperated from cheap labor in India, or not operated at all, just pattern match and shoot people who look like they are violating the rules.

Something like the MOOC "movement" but dedicated to selling to private prison administrators for their prisoners?

Implementing something like "a scanner darkly" is going to happen anyway, startup or not.

Maybe a more advanced higher tech house arrest ankle bracelet system?

listd• 13 years ago

:-) True! (interesting fact about ankle bracelets for house arrests: they were inspired by Spider-Man comics)

jivatmanx• 13 years ago

Primarily a side effect of the war on drugs.

fnordfnordfnord14• 13 years ago

I was a prison guard in Texas for a few years (TDCJ, not private). AMA

pilom• 13 years ago

1. What percentage of the inmates in your prison were there for drug related crimes? 2. What is your opinion on the "war on drugs" and the increased size of the inmate population that it creates?

fnordfnordfnord14• 13 years ago

1. That information is available to officers only when the situation requires it. I did have access to inmates' "travel cards" which detail their crimes and other information because I routinely transported inmates to other units; usually to medical or psychiatric facilities. I did not have the ability or occasion to compile statistics, but my best guess is that a lot of them were convicted of drug crimes. My best guess though is really no better than any random person's because there were so many prison units in TDCJ, and the populations of those units were classified partly based on their crimes. Most of the people I transported were violent offenders.

2. A huge and expensive tragedy of justice and of economic policy. Imprisoning people for non-violent drug charges takes what are often productively employed people out of the work force and turns them into a unit of negative productivity, taking with them, probably another additional person by the time you account for all of the officers and support staff needed for running a huge prison infrastructure. People imprisoned even for drug charges rarely re-enter the workforce, at least not at any reasonable level. After release, they are stigmatized and often victimized again through various ex-con hire subsidy programs.

tseabrooks• 13 years ago

What can you tell us about the quality of life for prisoners in TDCJ?

Where is the line between giving prisoners something to do vs giving them to much?

Are we working on ways to keep prisons from being "Criminal University"?

fnordfnordfnord14• 13 years ago

What can you tell us about the quality of life for prisoners in TDCJ?

Awful, No air conditioning, terrible food, not enough to do, terrible medical care, exactly what you would expect in Texas, only worse.

Where is the line between giving prisoners something to do vs giving them to much?

Idle hands and so forth. Prison officials have very little with which to manage inmates' behavior. Anything that can stave off the intense boredom of incarceration would probably help in the management of prisons. Unfortunately for everyone, the Wyndham School System program (education for inmates) was recently cancelled in Texas to cut expenses. I expect that will just make it even more difficult for future ex-convicts to succeed in any meaningful way after release, increasing recidivism.

Are we working on ways to keep prisons from being "Criminal University"?

I'm not sure what you mean, but we sure do seem to produce a lot of inmates in this country.

Zikes2• 13 years ago

What level of security (minimum, maximum, etc.) was the prison?

fnordfnordfnord14• 13 years ago

I worked at three different units Beto I, Estelle, and Ferguson. All were maximum security. Beto and Ferguson primarily housed violent offenders aged 18-30. What fun! I probably visited a dozen other units in the system during my employment there.

scilro• 13 years ago

Meanwhile, the DEA is teaming up with the CCA.

fnordfnordfnord14• 13 years ago

Not too far from the truth. Here a couple of judges busted taking bribes for filling private prisons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10747919

http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/luzerne-s-other-disgraced-j...

Also this: http://www.texasprisonbidness.org/

wtvanhest5• 13 years ago

This article has a lot of numbers but it doesn't seem to answer 2 questions which are far more important:

1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc.

2) More importantly, regardless of whether they are private or public prisons, how do we get less people to be living in them? What are our other options?

Last time on HN I asked this and the answer was, "support NORML". I then went and tried to find other organizations looking to make sweeping changes. I was not successful.

The problem with NORML is their image. No serious person in business can support an organization that uses a POT leaf as their symbol and seems to be primarily an organization for hippies to sit around and talk about the government. I realize that their image may not be their reality, but I can't write a company matched check to them without people wondering "what I'm smoking".

So... The question I am asking is, what can I do about one of the largest human rights atrocities ever committed by the United States, my country? Its obvious that at the very least we can move a lot of people to different types of facilities. We can probably do a lot more than that, possibly reversing 45 years of discriminatory drug laws and possibly taking increased societal risks to reduce the amount of years the average American spends in prison.

I'm somewhat distraught that this problem exists but I haven't come up with a solution yet.

Anyone out there have any ideas on who I can support or what can be done?

[ADDED] The Norml image problem is probably bad on the west coast, but is a deal breaker on the east coast.

pstuart4• 13 years ago

And what benefit do we get from locking up any drug user? Legal or not? Are we helping the user or society like this?

Hippies? Really? The entire Drug War is a failure and should be offensive to anybody who treasures civil liberties. If you passively accept the status quo then YOU are the problem, because this madness only continues because of sanctimonious people like YOU.

wtvanhest5• 13 years ago

The drug war is offensive and I am clearly stating that I no longer want to passively accept the status quo. I am also stating that NORML's brand is ineffective and I am looking for a brand I can donate to and possibly volunteer with without a negative impact to my career.

Until NORML changes their entire brand, their effectiveness will be limited. They do rally hippies which is a positive, but they won't get serious business people who cannot afford reputation risk no matter the cause.

If the people in NORML were serious, they would drop the pot leaf and start talking about civil liberties over "legalization".

fnordfnordfnord14• 13 years ago

1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc.

IMO, Absolutely not.

2) More importantly, regardless of whether they are private or public prisons, how do we get less people to be living in them? What are our other options?

Answer jury summonses. Learn about jury nullification. Pay attention to local elections.

I then went and tried to find other organizations looking to make sweeping changes. I was not successful.

The Innocence Project of Texas http://www.ipoftexas.org/

Law Enforcement Against Prohibition http://www.leap.cc/

Shivetya• 13 years ago

Jury Nullification seems to get bandied about a lot on tech sites. Yet in practice it is not as easy as one suspects, nor does it happen with any real frequency. It is common that defense attorneys are not allowed to instruct a jury to seek nullification, juries are regularly advised to apply the law in a case, and then there are courts which will screen out prospective jurors if they voice the opinion they don't agree with the law.

Then to top it off, you have to get all members of the jury to agree to it. With that you run up against morals and predispositions of the various jurors. It would have to be a pretty damn extreme law, one unfavorable with the public as a whole, to get caught up by a nullification and you can be the authorities would do their best to stack the deck

wtvanhest5• 13 years ago

Hey, thanks for your comment about LEAP. I had heard of them in the past, but didn't consider them. That may be where I make a donation, but the issue again is that the organization is about prohibition. In an ideal world, the organization would be fighting for human rights and addressing prohibition as the lowest hanging, and first fruit to take off the tree.

The Innocence Project is amazing, but does not address the widespread solution we need. A noble organization, ABSOLUTELY!

As for your first comment:

1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc. IMO, Absolutely not.

This is the general opinion of HN, but is it the truth? I'm sure someone has addressed this opinion with honest analysis, but I don't know where it exists. Stating that "they are making a profit" is not good enough because there is more to the question than that.

Thanks again for pointing to LEAP. That is definitely a better marketed organization than NORML.

fnordfnordfnord14• 13 years ago

re [ADDED]: Why is it a deal breaker to share common ground with a group that some people stereotype as undesirable? I mean, prohibition of drugs is one of the main drivers of the huge prison population.

NORML, the Marijuana Policy Project, and LEAP Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, are the groups that I am most aware of doing advocacy in this respect.

wtvanhest5• 13 years ago

I appreciate your comment listing the groups. I will look in to LEAP.

Why is it a deal breaker to share common ground with a group that some people stereotype as undesirable? I mean, prohibition of drugs is one of the main drivers of the huge prison population.

On the West Coast of the US you may be able to get away with open support of NORML at a tech company, but on the East Coast it is pretty much a no go at a serious organization.

If I want to make a donation and have my company match it, I can't make it to NORML without having people judge me while I am not aware of it. That is a complete deal breaker.

I hope their is an organization out there working on this that is doing in the name of enhanced civil liberties. Currently, it is easy for someone to say "You are supporting a bunch of hippies?" I want it easy for me to say "I can't believe you aren't supporting basic civil liberties"!

king_jester• 13 years ago

1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc.

Prisons in general are bad for society. Prison stays are highly deleterious to people and the communities they will return to. Non-violent crimes should certainly not result in prison time, there is no productive reason for that to happen. Property crimes (e.g. theft) are come about from how society is structured and we would be better off addressing social inequality than investing in increasing incarceration. Violent crimes may be better handled with systems that are structurally different from the current prison system.

2) More importantly, regardless of whether they are private or public prisons, how do we get less people to be living in them? What are our other options?

War on drugs must end. Social inequality with regards to poverty and homelessness need to be seriously tackled. Racism and sexism need to be addressed from a systemic aspect. Finally for those violent crimes that do require some kind of social response alternatives to the current prison system should be explored.

neon_electro• 13 years ago

Have you seen Marijuana Majority? http://marijuanamajority.com/

danmaz74• 13 years ago

I remember when I first saw the movie Robocop, and I thought: Privatized police force? Come on, not even in the USA the "markets will fix everything" ideology could go so far.

Well, this isn't very far from that.

By the way, spending less on rehabilitation doesn't just save money now, it also brings higher recidivism and so makes for a healthier future market for these corporations...

jonnathanson2• 13 years ago

"I remember when I first saw the movie Robocop, and I thought: Privatized police force? Come on, not even in the USA the "markets will fix everything" ideology could go so far."

The CCA logo (as seen on the flag) even looks vaguely OCP-ish, like something out of the particularly '80s vision of the corporate future as envisioned in the original Robocop.

"spending less on rehabilitation doesn't just save money now, it also brings higher recidivism and so makes for a healthier future market for these corporations..."

Exactly. And let's not forget that these same corporations who run prisons also lobby for harsher sentencing, mandatory minimums, looser prison labor laws, and so forth.

It's a sticky subject because nobody -- politician, man on the street, mother of children, or law-abiding citizen -- wants to come right out and say that he or she is advocating for prisoner's rights. Nobody's ever won an election being "soft" on crime (at least not to my knowledge). So the prison-industrial complex has it pretty easy, as far as built-in political incentives are concerned. Ultimately their agenda is self-fulfilling, and the social externalities are highly negative. Costs may be cut in the short run, but as you suggest, recidivism means nobody in the system is ever really going to escape it -- hence, we're shortchanging the future to save pennies in the present.

pstuart4• 13 years ago

I'll come out right here and say that I advocate for prisoner's rights. On humanitarian grounds.

But if one wanted to do so for the practical matter of wasting less money on prisons and having more productive members of society and less crime, then it would behoove one to do so as well.

john_b• 13 years ago

"It's a sticky subject because nobody -- politician, man on the street, mother of children, or law-abiding citizen -- wants to come right out and say that he or she is advocating for prisoner's rights."

True, but part of the problem is framing. Since most people won't make political decisions based on careful reflection, you have to have an emotional pull of some sort. Language like "tough on crime" and "keeping communities safe" frames the debate as those who value enforcing the law and safety versus their opponents, who presumably don't.

Instead of playing that game, what aspiring policians will have to do is frame these kinds of things in terms of human rights, not prisoner's rights. Simply accepting the phrase "prisoner's rights" implies that rights can be doled out by government based on how it chooses to classify citizens. This kind of framing can work:

Political challenger, to incumbent: "Do you support human rights?"

Incumbent: "Of course."

Challenger: "Do you consider prisoners to be human beings?"

Incumbent (worried look): "Well...yes, though I would add that..."

Challenger: "Then why do you support things such as prolonged solitary confinement of prisoners--which is widely agreed to be a form of torture--and the outsourcing of our justice system to race-to-the-bottom private corporations that are held to lower standards and have far less oversight?"

The really sad part is that this is just as disingenous as the narrative supplied by the supporters of the prison industrial complex. But if you want to change things from within the political system you just have to convince voters the other guy is the bad guy.

tptacek• 13 years ago

There are lots of places besides HN to talk about stuff like this. Every time we try to talk about it here, the level of civility on HN degrades. Sometimes just a little, sometimes by a lot. I assume that's one of the reasons that articles like this are discouraged by the site guidelines.

I flagged this post.

pstuart4• 13 years ago

True, and I admit to getting hot under the collar.

But I would argue that in a way that articles like this should get viewed and discussed by the HN crowd in the context of hacking civilization.

This particular subject absolutely defines the world in which we live in, and a it's not a pretty picture. It happens because we let it, and we let it because we collectively don't care. We collectively don't care because we remain (intentionally) ignorant of the situation.

It's turtles of despair all the way down....

spindritf• 13 years ago

Some states, like Indiana have managed to keep prices low at around $14,000 per inmate. While states like New York pay around $60,000 to keep its citizens behind bars.

OK, but what's the benefit? What is the damage to society and economy an average criminal causes over the course of a year? How much in property, lost trust, mental and physical injuries, increased spending on security, etc. does it cost to have the guy on the loose?

How much of that benefit are prisons eating? I'd love to see an analysis but my guess would be that housing an inmate for ~30k is a bargain.

ollysb• 13 years ago

What is the damage to society and economy an average criminal causes over the course of a year?

Those incarcerated for drug use could potentially be making the government a profit. The only negative effects on society are associated with the supply line, not the individual's behaviour. If some drugs were legalised the net benefit to society would be positive, increased income via taxation and improved relations between the police and the public(a large portion of which are drugs users).

npsimons• 13 years ago

Well, if you want to ask those kinds of questions, then you have to start asking, how much does it cost society to let some pothead remain free? Because that's another aspect of this problem: incarcerating people for victimless crimes.

tgodard• 13 years ago

As someone else already commented, the conditions in Texas prisons run by corporations like CCA aren't exactly the greatest. The state of Texas currently pays, on average, $21k per prisoner. Keeping the prices low at $14k per inmate in states like Indiana and Kentucky could potentially be creating additional costs to the state in the form of recidivism, and other social problems. We didn't find conclusive data (comprehensive hard dollar figures)on this but answering your question is the next step.

Bryan22• 13 years ago

What, exactly, is "an average criminal"? There are laws against causing damage to property that's not yours. No one is saying let all the criminals out. Just stop putting people in jail for hurting absolutely nobody except themselves. 30k a year is a bargain? That's a laugh. regular people live on much less than 30k a year in furnished houses, why should an 8x8 cell and one guard per n inmates cost more than a large number of people make in a year? Why do you and I foot the bill for their medical and education costs? I can hardly afford my own education, much less an education for inmates. If you're not disturbed or angry, or at least critical of the current situation, you should consider a reappraisal of your view on what a bargain is.

arbuge• 13 years ago

Alot of these articles miss an important part of the equation by just looking at the direct costs to taxpayers to run prison facilities. There are alot more costs to the incarceration mentality than just that.

There is the cost of the entire justice system - police, judges, attorneys, and so on.

Add to that the lost productivity of inmates who could be holding down jobs instead of just twiddling their thumbs.

Then you have costs borne by the inmates' families to visit them, make up for their absence etc.

I think the overall cost to American society from locking up so many people is staggering when you add it all up. Unfortunately people still vote for politicians who promise to be "tough(er) on crime" and the cycle continues...

jiggy20119• 13 years ago

But then you need to offset that against the damage that would be done if that person was not incarcerated. The $ amount of damage a car thief can do in one month is very high.

cheeseprocedure• 13 years ago

The article specifically mentions incarcerations skyrocketing as a result of the drug war. Throwing petty dealers in prison is not an effective use of taxpayer dollars.

samolang• 13 years ago

The author mentions private prison scandals, but neglects to mention that scandals occur in public prisons like [1] this one as well.

[1] http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013/04/23/25-correctional-off...

mathattack• 13 years ago

I would like to see data on whether these private prisons are unionized. It seems like the prison unions are out to keep their services needed.

http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2011/06/the-role-of-the-p...

http://www.policymic.com/articles/41531/union-of-the-snake-h...

The Economics of the American Prison System

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