A Selection Of Thoughts From Actual Women (regarding GoGaRuCo)

http://hackety.org/2009/04/29/aSelectionOfThoughtsFromActualWomen.html

by sant0sk1 • 17 years ago

66 145 17 years ago

hackety.org

kentf• 17 years ago

A great impartial commentary on this entire situation.

jgrahamc4• 17 years ago

How is commentary from women (subgroup of entire population) who chose to comment (selection bias) impartial?

peregrine• 17 years ago

Again _why blows the discussion out of the water, sets it down and makes everyone in the room feel like a child for his foresight and wisdom.

Thanks _why.

petercooper3• 17 years ago

He has foresight and wisdom in spades but this is just an objective list of quotes :)

eru• 17 years ago

What use is a good quote, when you can't change it?

Really: Selecting the 'objective information' is still judgement.

tvon3• 17 years ago

Laying it on a bit thick there, don't ya think?

grandalf• 17 years ago

did you watch the video of the shoes presenter from gogaruco? I suspect the poster is that guy.

jimbokun• 17 years ago

"Titillation is certainly good marketing, but frankly, if you can’t find a way to make your presentation interesting that doesn’t include thonged asses, your presentation isn’t interesting."

I found this the best summary.

tannerburson• 17 years ago

I think it goes just a bit further than this, but not a lot. He tried to play off of the "rock star" persona that surrounds the Rails community in an over the top and humorous way. He failed, miserably.

Those he was satirizing thought it was great, and those who should have appreciated the satire were offended. It showed a complete lapse of judgment, and frankly professional taste.

But the amount of hype this whole drama has received is yet another mark against the Rails community. Maybe Zed was more right than everyone thought.

jgrahamc4• 17 years ago

How about a thought from an actual man? Me.

I've flipped through the slides and if I'd been in that presentation I would have had a very low opinion of the speaker. Not because I've got a problem with pornography, but because his presentation shows a complete lack of judgment.

If you are making a public presentation you need to realize that your standards are not shared by everyone in the audience so you need to tailor your presentation to them. There were probably plenty of people happy to see softcore pornography that day, some people who wished it had been hardcore, and others who felt uncomfortable. There's not an obvious male/female mapping to those categories.

Suppose it hadn't been pornography, but had been slides making fun of Christianity, or slides showing graphic depictions of surgery, or jokes aimed at a minority based on skin color. You can imagine the audience splitting into groups that were happy with that, unhappy and indifferent.

But why split your audience? They were there to hear about CouchDB, not to understand the speaker's personal beliefs or preferences.

In addition to having a low opinion of the speaker, I would have been uncomfortable with the images knowing that others in the audience were likely offended and didn't say anything.

And lastly, his metaphor is broken. So CouchDB performs like a porn star? Good to know. To me performing like a porn star means pretending to do something and not doing the real thing. I guess CouchDB is some sort of phony database that looks good at first glance but is just faking it.

axod20• 17 years ago

OTOH, It's often nice to see people speak who just don't care if everyone likes what they have to say.

I find it quite funny how this is apparently only offensive to women for some unbeknown reason. I think that in itself belittles women.

jgrahamc4• 17 years ago

Agreed. But I get the distinct impression that this speaker figured that everyone was going to like his pornography analogy and imagery.

petercooper3• 17 years ago

Yeah, if CouchDB really performs like a porn star, it should cost $1000 an hour to run and need to get health checks every month. Not quite selling points for an always-up service (pun not originally intended, but I'm going with it now).

sethg• 17 years ago

Interesting comment quoted here: http://www.oblomovka.com/wp/2009/04/28/how-to-be-edgy/

It’s not about whether it’s porn or not porn. Those commenting on people’s supposed hypersensitivity to nudity or bodies are completely missing the point. It’s about presenting women as ‘the other,’ not ‘us.’ It would have been just as offensive if all the women shown were domineering mothers in aprons, shaking their fingers and threatening with rolling pins.

mattmcknight4• 17 years ago

Possibly true, it wouldn't have gotten any attention. It wouldn't be outrageous and very few people would be talking about it, if any.

anigbrowl2• 17 years ago

It wasn't about women (to me) - I would have had the same reaction if it was gay porn. Or if it was a talk on security and featured photos of real life cops and criminals breaking the law. I'm sure it's a great database, but the visual baggage wound up being a major distraction.

jdminhbg2• 17 years ago

The one thing I do have to say is:

> What about a presentation about writing code on deadline: “Delivering Like a Birth Mom.” Or how about graphic images of up-close breastfeeding in a talk titled “Nursing Your Projects Along.”

I don't think this would upset many male attendees, nor would it upset me. That doesn't necessarily mean that "Perform like a pornstar" was ok, but this analogy doesn't really hold. I think most guys would find the birthing/nursing metaphors funny, and I don't think you'd see any complaints afterward. Unless, of course, it was a guy who gave the talk.

axod20• 17 years ago

I agree. The only difference would be that more people know about porn, than have kids and know about birthing/breast feeding.

If you could be pretty sure most people knew about it, I think either would be fine. Maybe an odd choice raising a few eyebrows though.

marcusbooster2• 17 years ago

I think she's alluding that a lot of guys, when they see a mother breast feeding in public will roll their eyes in disgust, "does she really have to do that here?" Hence the big Facebook controversy a few months back - is it appropriate to post breast-feeding pics on the site?

I don't have an answer to that, but I understand how I might feel uncomfortable if I had to watch a presentation about breast-feeding for 30 minutes when I was expecting something on CouchDB. Swap that out for something potentially more inflammatory and you get the disaster we see now.

jwr2• 17 years ago

These things are very culture-dependent. In Europe, most people don't care much about breast feeding in public, and don't see why Americans seem to raise such a fuss about Janet Jackson's breast.

Which means you don't want to use these themes to illustrate your presentation, unless you are deliberately trying to annoy or offend part of your audience.

axod20• 17 years ago

>> "a lot of guys, when they see a mother breast feeding in public will roll their eyes in disgust"

Seriously? In US I assume?

I'm in the UK and have never had such an impression. Old people seem to sometimes get offended at such things, but certainly not the general population.

kragen• 17 years ago

a lot of guys, when they see a mother breast feeding in public will roll their eyes in disgust, "does she really have to do that here?"

People who are disgusted by breastfeeding have no place in any society. Breastfeeding is just something women do naturally, unless they are part of the minority that doesn't have children. Hostility to breastfeeding is just a form of hostility to women, and it has the effect of making women second-class citizens: it forces women to choose between raising their children themselves and participating as full members in society.

access_denied• 17 years ago

Do you that one speech from Joe Spolsky? Where he shows _one_ slide with a scarcely dressed women on it to make a point about attention? If I remember correctly he held that speech on a prior Rails Con.

I guess that was an "inspiration" for Matt, wasn't it?

mattmcknight4• 17 years ago

I get why the presentation/presenter was ineffective for some audiences. I get that there are various assorted prudes that need to be marketed to. I don't get why everyone has to have an opinion about it.

Has no one heard the term "booth babe" before? Been to car show? Turned on the television and seen a beer commercial? Watched a race car driver endorse a domain name registrar? Sure it sucks that marketing and sex are intertwined. Read this: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/04...

Then can we please shut up and get back to coding?

diN0bot3• 17 years ago

What do car shows and beer commercials have to do with intellectual discourse?

yeah, base advertising works. on the other hand, if going to work was like being in a car commercial i doubt we'd produce anything constructive.

diN0bot3• 17 years ago

in fact, here's a good quote for that:

> "Victoria Wang: DHH’s attitude seems to say that the more we lower ourselves to the most base level of marketing scum in the name of entertainment, the better, even if at the end of the day there are no more women, or anyone worth knowing, in the room. It kind of makes me want to never touch Rails code again."

mattmcknight4• 17 years ago

I agree with you that advertising sucks for getting work done, and that's why 90% of technical conferences with endless vendor pitches suck. Pitches for open source stuff can obviously also suck just as badly, and be even more clumsily delivered.

Let's not construe a non-technical statement about an open source product as "intellectual discourse". It's an advertorial statement of opinion, not a fact. The CouchDB marketing department may not have approved the message, but, for whatever reason, the guy is trying to get people to try some CouchDB. That's an attempt at persuasion/marketing/advertising. Hence, the relevance of other attempts that use similar means, and the ridiculousness of anyone getting worked into a lather about someone doing it.

Of course, must people don't like sitting through commercials. It's even stupider to pay to go to a conference so you can listen to them.

cjbos11• 17 years ago

"Has no one heard the term "booth babe" before? Been to car show? Turned on the television and seen a beer commercial?"

Three things that are specifically targeted at the 18-34 Male demographic. I thought the point of this debate was that tech conferences should be more inclusive than just that key demographic that makes up the bulk of the tech sector workforce.

krschultz2• 17 years ago

But that is marketing to customers, this is a technical conference. Sex sells but sex does not belong in the workplace.

I can see an argument as to why that is a double standard, but it is what it is and if you are going to be a professional you have to respect that.

knieveltech• 17 years ago

You know, the Drupal community is always looking for talented developers and to date I've yet to see any pr0n embedded in a presentation I've attended. Just sayin...

diN0bot3• 17 years ago

this is an interesting one. i didn't realize that people voted without seeing the content. i guess they were just voting for topics or titles?

> "I voted for it, actually, because CouchDB is one of those things that’s the new hotness and I haven’t had a chance to play with it, and besides, he wouldn’t actually put porn in the slides. Right? […] I’m a minority in this community. I know that, and generally I can ignore it and go along thinking it’s a meritocracy of ideas and code. Then I encounter a woman’s thonged rear on the screen at a conference, 20 feet tall, and I remember, oh yeah, people like me don’t belong here. To most of these men around me, I am, at best, an oddity, and at worst, a sexual target. I feel a little less safe."

Tichy5• 17 years ago

There was no porn in the slides. (Edit: to be more specific, the "thong" picture on the front page was the most explicit one of the slides, and that looks more like an ad out of a women's magazine, maybe for underwear or perfume. Might be a better place to look for roots of sexism.).

cjbos11• 17 years ago

I wasn't at the presentation, but it was reported in the original posts that 5 slides were removed from the web version of the slideshow that were more explicit (Although not reported how explicit, nor has this been verified by anyone who attended.)

Ardit203• 17 years ago

maybe for underwear or perfume. Might be a better place to look for roots of sexism

How is presenting underwear for women on a woman sexism?

sp332• 17 years ago

In this community, everyone is an oddity. Get used to it or GTFO.

yummyfajitas14• 17 years ago

I've noticed a very unpleasant trend in some of the complaints (both here and in similar discussions). A couple of examples:

Ruby (and Rails in particular) loves the rock star image...It’s also a significant barrier to adoption for people who aren’t already a part of this culture, and don’t find it appealing.

As a young women in tech, ... I would be extremely uncomfortable in a classroom of thirty young men and me if an instructor used sex as a metaphor for teaching.

In short, "I'm a girl, I don't like the existing culture, it should change to accommodate me."

I could make a similar statement about the culture I'm currently working in:

As a macho libertarian hacker type, I would be extremely uncomfortable in an extreme liberal, PC-gone-wild culture which glorifies east coast pseudointellectual preening. Therefore, the culture of modern universities should change.

Most communities have a preexisting culture, and you are not a good fit for all of them. But demanding that a culture change to be more palatable for you is the height of arrogance. I don't demand that academic culture change, I just fit in as best I can. Sooner or later I'll probably move on to a place where I fit in better.

[edit: I've been refreshing the page, this post seems to be getting a lot of both upmods and downmods. I'd be curious to hear responses.]

jibiki• 17 years ago

> As a macho libertarian hacker type, I would be extremely uncomfortable in an extreme liberal, PC-gone-wild culture which glorifies east coast pseudointellectual preening. Therefore, the culture of modern universities should change.

I've heard this sentiment expressed on a couple occasions ^^ There's nothing wrong with trying to change to world, or even just your corner of it. It's important not to be too annoying about it, but that's not really an issue here (you can always just ignore the debate and keep on hacking.)

yummyfajitas14• 17 years ago

I don't object if you want to change the world for the better. I object when you want to change the world for your personal benefit.

A good argument: "The number of great female hackers is much larger than the number of macho rockstar hackers. To get more good hackers, we should change our culture."

[edit: I'm not sure if the good argument is true, but imagine it is for the sake of argument.]

A bad argument: "I was offended, the culture should change to accommodate people like me."

philwelch6• 17 years ago

Do you intend to imply that women shouldn't feel welcome as Ruby/RoR hackers?

Because all this time, I just thought Ruby and RoR were about hacking in a powerful yet carefree interpreted language. I didn't realize it had anything to do with excluding women.

yummyfajitas14• 17 years ago

No.

I'm claiming that the argument "As an X, I dislike the culture surrounding Y, therefore it should change" is arrogant and flawed. I then illustrated with a non-gendered example of a culture in which I fit poorly.

There are many valid criticisms one can make about either ROR culture (see Zed's rant) or academic culture. But "As an X, I don't like the culture surrounding Y" is not a valid criticism. That's just a selfish demand that the world change to make your life easier.

plinkplonk9• 17 years ago

"Do you intend to imply that women shouldn't feel welcome as Ruby/RoR hackers?"

No that isn't what yummyfajitas said. What he said was " Culture of X should change because I, as a Y feel it should" is not a convincing argument.

EDIT: ok I just saw yummy fajitas response and he said it better.

tvon3• 17 years ago

I initially voted you up because I think I know what you mean, but in thinking about it I would change my vote if I could.

Point being, your argument applies just as well to any sort of discrimination, and it basically boils down to "you don't like it? Tough, you're not in charge". At least that's how it sounds to me.

yummyfajitas14• 17 years ago

My argument doesn't apply to all discrimination. If women were being actively discriminated against, I'd object.

That isn't the complaint. The complaint is that "ROR culture is tolerant of edgy material I dislike, and they should change to make me more comfortable."

The latter argument is the one I'm claiming is flawed. It's an argument about culture which some people may dislike, not specific actions which directly harm another person.

raganwald9• 17 years ago

Most communities have a preexisting culture, and you are not a good fit for all of them. But demanding that a culture change to be more palatable for you is the height of arrogance.

I grew up in a culture where people of colour were not welcome. Others fought and actually died so that I could write about Ruby and programming and have people include me or argue with me on the basis of my ideas and not my skin colour. In my own lifetime, I have witnesses the exact same struggle over sexual orientation.

If giving one's life to change the world in this manner is "the height of arrogance," I welcome it.

http://members.shaw.ca/cartermyths/Pics/jamesmeredith.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbbcjn4d1cE

galactus• 17 years ago

Well said

yummyfajitas14• 17 years ago

As I already clarified, I'm not defending active discrimination. I'm simply claiming you need a stronger argument than "As an X, I'm offended, so the world should change."

Acting like a rock star != discrimination against women. Women may disproportionately dislike geeks acting like rock stars, but that doesn't make it discrimination.

It is simply wrong to compare actively harming a group of people (segregation) to a group of people disproportionately disliking a certain culture.

axod20• 17 years ago

This reminds me of the Janet Jackson superbowl debacle. The attitude to sex in the US is just bizarre.

jwr2• 17 years ago

I really don't see why people make this into a gender thing. Because there were more women in the photographs than men?

The speaker showed very poor taste. Such illustrations are totally inappropriate for a public presentation. But this has nothing to do with gender, so I don't see why women were more offended than men.

bena2• 17 years ago

I think next year, a woman should give a presentation at a Rails/Ruby conference that had nothing but slides of penises for visual aids (or muscled men in seductive poses and scant clothing).

I'm sure a metaphor could be worked in that would fit a stack of penises.

Then see what the community has to say about that presentation.

Because I think that's the biggest problem here, they aren't considering what it would've been like if the presentation had contained something that extremely marginalized them in the same way this woman felt. The community is saying "Whatever, boobs are fine. Fuck professionalism.", but they are only considering it in the context of what they saw and what they are comfortable with.

And from what I've seen, the Ruby community is championed by a bunch of self-important douchebags. And because of them, I'll probably never become interested enough to learn Ruby. It's that huge a turn off, I don't want to associated with that. Level of success/fame/money is unimportant because by that same metric, Bill Gates is an awesome guy and Microsoft one of the coolest companies around.

yummyfajitas14• 17 years ago

The original presentation was not "nothing but slides of vaginas for visual aids". It was a normal tech presentation, but with LOLCAT FAIL replaced by ugly porn stars, and EPIC WIN replaced by pretty porn stars.

If the same presentation were made, but with LOLCAT FAIL -> ugly man in seductive pose, EPIC WIN -> muscled man, I doubt many men would be offended. I certainly would not be.

In my opinion, women (at least the ones who complain about such things) are simply less tolerant of edgy material than most hackers.

Also, the original presentation showed no full nudity. I don't think your comparison to a "stack of penises" is apt.

bena2• 17 years ago

But it's not really about the degree of nudity, but the degree of uncomfortableness felt by the audience. That's what DHH, the presenter, and you are getting wrong. You are arguing about the wrong thing. It's not so much about the content of the slides, but how that content made that lone woman feel in a room full of men.

plinkplonk9• 17 years ago

"I'm sure a metaphor could be worked in that would fit a stack of penises."

Frankly (as a man) I wouldn't be offended.

"they aren't considering what it would've been like if the presentation had contained something that extremely marginalized them "

You can't "marginalize" me unless I choose to feel marginalized by what you say. I'll be damned if I give you that kind of power over me.

If I thought the presentation was full of shit, I'd just walk out. I am sure a decent tech conference would have better presentations elsewhere.

One thing I wouldn't do is whine endlessly about it because one of my "identities" got hurt. It is a free country and I am fine with the right of free speech sometimes causing me "offense".

This is the Danish cartoons on a smaller scale. It is all right to "offend" 6th century "prophets" (and their followers). It is all right to "offend" the political correctness of the day. That is what free speech means. You don't think a particular instance is appropriate, just walk away.

All we need are mobs burning DHH in effigy and destroying public property and then we can all go back to our normal lives.

cjbos11• 17 years ago

This misses the point of the debate though. The original blogger didn't whine about it or leave, she just mentioned it was a little out of place to see in a conference presentation. That's nothing like the Danish Cartoon controversy, what upset a few folks however was the response of the Rails leadership in jumping to defend the presenter and implying that presentations that offend more people should be the order of the day at Rails conferences.

How the hell do you build a community by fostering a culture that goes out of its way to try and alienate people to gain a few high fives and back pats by the leaders?

axod20• 17 years ago

>> "Then see what the community has to say about that presentation."

I suspect most men would just laugh if they saw pictures of penises. But it's Apples and Oranges. Calling the slides in the presentation 'porn' is false advertising. It's some scantily clad women.

A better analogy IMHO would be a women giving a talk, that includes makeup+lingerie in it as metaphors etc. But I don't think most men would feel offended by that.

cjbos11• 17 years ago

So agreed that makeup+lingerie (Or Shopping?) for the average female stereotype is equivalent to the average male stereotype of thinking about scantily-clad women.

Now if you went to a industry conference attended by 200 women and yourself and all the analogies were about "Women" stuff. Would you leave the conference thinking that the industry was equally representative and welcoming of males than females?

For me thats the important question, not if it offended you or not.

Tichy5• 17 years ago

Could one problem with the discussion be that people talk about different things?

a) was the presentation very tasteful and/or funny? (most would probably agree that it wasn't)

b) was it an unforgivable affront against women? (some think no, and end up defending the presentation even though they might not even have liked it much).

I must admit I have troubles understanding some things, like the thong picture making a woman feel unwelcome.

Ardit203• 17 years ago

I must admit I have troubles understanding some things, like the thong picture making a woman feel unwelcome.

I am not a woman, but some of the comments on that site made me understand. Perhaps you would too, Imagine the conference was attended by only 6 guys and all the others were females, the one giving the presentation is female, and the pictures on the presentation are of men depicted sexually. Now imagine that some of these females might have the opinion that males inherently are inferior intellectually than females. Now imagine that this minority situation continues in the work place and these men are seen as a strange oddity by the females. It wouldn't feel nice to have a presentation which sort of harnesses the feelings of these females.

Tichy5• 17 years ago

"Now imagine that some of these females might have the opinion that males inherently are inferior intellectually than females."

With what justification do you add that to the story? And if that would have been the case, wouldn't that be the problem, rather than the pictures?

I can imagine a minority situation feeling strange and uncomfortable, but it seems a bit unfair to blame the men for that - as a man, the only way to tilt the gender balance would be to not attend the conference.

huherto• 17 years ago

I do not think the presentation was particularly offensive; but he tried to be funny and failed. He should have apologized and move on. But he didn't and that is what caused all this. Just poor judgment followed by poor damage control.

yef• 17 years ago

Why is there so much drama in the Ruby community?

octane3• 17 years ago

Because it's a scene.

jnovek3• 17 years ago

Where are all the comments about evolution, biology and women as programmers? This group of HN commenters really bothers me -- the armchair biologists who declare that women keep away from programming and startups because evolution rather than socialization tells them to.

I have a pretty strong opinion that runs counter to that one, so I want to see a response from this group! Here we have a lot of women talking about how macho-ism and the locker room mentality makes them less comfortable. How does this fit in with the question, "Why are there so few women developing software?"

axod20• 17 years ago

>> "Why are there so few women developing software?"

You don't need permission to develop software you know... Just go ahead and do it. If you get good enough at it and make some cool stuff, people will hire you.

jnovek3• 17 years ago

My question isn't clear -- a better question is, "Why do so few women want to develop software?"

I think it has a lot to do with the software-development culture. And I think that the comments that these women made back up that position. Software development -- especially in startups -- has developed a "macho" culture. And that's a shame because it excludes.

ahoyhere• 17 years ago

The root of the problem? Broken funny bone.

This is something that sounded funny in the head of the presenter, but he didn't have the comedic chops to carry it off. Just like that Giles Bowkett "lynch him" brouhaha.

Matt is a good man, but a very bad comedian.

I left a lengthier comment on _why's post.

I get away with off-color humor in my talks in the "Ruby Community" all the time and nobody's bitched. Maybe it's cuz I've got breasts! Or, more likely, it's because I know how to gauge the audience & carry it off.

Alas.

The true problem will never get addressed.

asb• 17 years ago

Danny O'Brien has picked out a great quote on this issue:

> "It’s not about whether it’s porn or not porn. Those commenting on people’s supposed hypersensitivity to nudity or bodies are completely missing the point. It’s about presenting women as ‘the other,’ not ‘us.’ It would have been just as offensive if all the women shown were domineering mothers in aprons, shaking their fingers and threatening with rolling pins."

http://www.oblomovka.com/wp/2009/04/28/how-to-be-edgy/

octane3• 17 years ago

Honestly I don't care if women are offended by this or not, but it's awfully embarrassing to me as a man, and as a computer programmer. Sigh.

jamesbritt3• 17 years ago

" ... but it's awfully embarrassing to me as a man, and as a computer programmer. "

Why? Matt's not you, doesn't speak for you, doesn't claim to represent you. Or would any reasonable adult think that.

One person did something, others have their reactions. Let them sort it out.

octane3• 17 years ago

You've never sat in an audience and felt uncomfortable/embarrassed when the presenter or speaker started making a fool of himself?

What the fuck are you, some kind of robot? You're full of shit.

vinutheraj• 17 years ago

WOW it seems really surprising to me that some pr0n images on some presentation has got 124 comments from people. This doesn't seem good for HN. I think it will be better to talk about some technical issue than this.

Anybody downvoting this, can you just clearly explain to me why what I have stated needs downvoting ( or why I am wrong ... please !! )

A Selection Of Thoughts From Actual Women (regarding GoGaRuCo)

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