The Three Kinds of Laziness

http://sub.garrytan.com/the-three-kinds-of-laziness

by sethbannon • 13 years ago

204 114 13 years ago

sub.garrytan.com

guylhem• 13 years ago

Excellent content and suggestions. To attack the 3 kinds of laziness at once, I for one find motivation in reading the dharma (see the miracle of knowledge) and Seneca letters.

Speaking of Seneca letters, the last one is especially thoughtful, in reminding us that physical pleasures should not be scorned either.

The parent article may insist too much in spirituality - but besides that minor drawback, it's a great read, with actionnable practical advice.

shawnc• 13 years ago

This is great. For some reason, I read it as the point to this was the third kind of laziness, and how to overcome that. It seemed like the least obvious of the three, and also once I read it, how to overcome it was also the least obvious.

And it's a very good thing to bring up. I for one, am always working on something, attending to something, and it's all as a lead-up to the 'something big'. What my co-founder tends to do is realize when we're in this mode and declare it's time to 'step it up a notch'. We do things if we realize we're scared or nervous to do them, purely to get past that and move forward.

WalterSear5• 13 years ago

This simplistic 'snap out of it' ideology belies and belittles the very real issues of fear, discouragement and depression that underly much of what people berate themselves over as 'laziness'.

ctdonath• 13 years ago

But "snap out of it" is exactly it. The person must make the choice to do, regardless of any array of fears, disabilities, circumstances, or excuses. No matter how real the issues, it still is a matter of choice. Skirting death can clarify this.

Do or do not. There is no try.

oblique632• 13 years ago

Something about this stance has always bothered me. I don't know if it's just me, but I have always just seen this as condescending because 'having a choice' has always been blatantly obvious to me. I will immediately take that back and apologize if a majority of people really don't realize this, but so far it has always seemed like most people give rather 'meh' reactions to these sorts of responses because you're not providing them with any new information -- which is exactly my gripe. In my opinion, saying "Hey! it's all about making a choice, so just make it already!" is not a valid solution strategy imo; it is barely a rosy incomplete pseudocode algorithm -- not something actionable/reproducible. I really strongly feel that anything that is going to be conveyed with a tone of "Hey, I just gave you a solution!" should be backed up with an actionable mechanism/solution. But that's probably just me...

drumdance2• 13 years ago

The "choice to do" is located in the brain. If the brain is malfunctioning this choice can be very difficult. People with severe depression, anxiety, OCD often have malfunctioning brains.

In my case depression usually manifests as extreme fatigue coupled with disinterest in everything. Choosing to do anything is very difficult if nothing has meaning.

kinleyd10• 13 years ago

"This simplistic 'snap out of it' ideology" lies at the heart of Buddhism. It is neither ideology nor simplistic.

virtualwhys6• 13 years ago

What is this Buddhism that you speak of? Put another way, what is Buddha? Given the epoch, it's not even clear that all of the teachings attributed to the Buddha derive from one being (i.e. Buddhism is the evolution of a core teaching that has become an ism).

IIRC, from the Diamond Sutra: a cloud, a flash of lightening, a dew drop, a star...view all created things like this.

If that doesn't divert one's attention from sex, beer, or a pint of Ben & Jerry's, nothing will ;-)

WalterSear5• 13 years ago

In that were the case, Buddhism would lacking. But it isn't the heart of Buddhism.

vinceguidry4• 13 years ago

I was hoping for a mention of the useful programmer's type of laziness. The laziness that leads to DRY and building tools that build your tools. I feel like more could be said on that topic, how that sort of laziness relates to the others.

jonahx• 13 years ago

I take it that this is just a specific example of the 3rd kind.

tomsthumb2• 13 years ago

A lot of Zen and Buddhism would agree with programmers laziness, methinks. A Zen monk would probably point out that, by definition, if you're working harder than you need to then you're wasting action and effort that could be put elsewhere, or simply not done.

One of the 'jokes' of Zen is that people will spend so much time attempting to reach enlightenment, only to realize there wasn't anything in particular to realize.

Case in point, Mu. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)

SolarUpNote• 13 years ago

"DRY and building tools that build your tools"

Are those bad? It sounds like you might have learned a hard lesson, and I'd be curious to hear more.

vinceguidry4• 13 years ago

No, sorry, you must've misread me. The article painted laziness in a negative light, but in my experience listening to it mostly yields positive results. If I find myself getting bored and lazy while coding, that to me is intolerable, and I'll do whatever to make it more interesting. To me laziness breeds creativity. I've never experienced the dynamics in the article.

yen2232• 13 years ago

Laziness is not a virtue. If a lazy person could be productive by building smarter tools, imagine what a dedicated, focussed person could do with those same tools. And no, you don't have to be 'lazy' to recognize the value of those tools.

Personal anecdote: I used to be the sort of programmer who would waste all my time surfing the net, and maybe banging out a script once in a blue moon, while congratulating myself on working 'smart'. The end result: a massive backlog of unfinished tasks, and a whole lot of wasted years.

Thing is, working hard and working smart - they aren't mutually exclusive. I found out all too late that when we say 'laziness is a virtue', we actually mean 'efficiency is a virtue'. It's the desire to be efficient at our job that leads to DRY and building productivity-multipliers. Laziness - that just leads to thumb-twiddling.

virtualwhys6• 13 years ago

Actually, some would say that laziness is supreme virtue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi

Work, work, work, work, work, more work, work more, must achieve success, must attain the "goal"

...ark, ack, nyug, gasp, Die.

We all meet the same end whether we attain something (achievement oriented successful person) or not (good for nothing enlightened lazy person).

vinceguidry4• 13 years ago

>I used to be the sort of programmer who would waste all my time surfing the net, and maybe banging out a script once in a blue moon, while congratulating myself on working 'smart'.

If I have tasks to do involving programming, I would naturally gravitate towards doing them rather than screwing around.

Hmm. Perhaps you don't have enough passion for programming. I'm not trying to attack your skills or anything, but if I were you, I'd try to find something that involves coding, so you don't have to learn completely new skills, but that you actually have passion for. Then apply your skills towards that.

The thing about passion is that it makes most every other concern moot. You don't have to worry about procrastination, you don't need to concern yourself with whether you're wasting your life, because you already have something driving your actions every day.

tomsthumb2• 13 years ago

If you see this as actionable information you could probably get a good deal out of perusing information on the eightfold path, particularly Right Effort (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma...).

mreid• 13 years ago

Sloth, apathy, and procrastination.

loup-vaillant2• 13 years ago

If procrastination was that easy to beat, we probably wouldn't have a laziness problem in the first place. I mean in general, not just for "spiritual" practices.

As for spiritual enlightenment, my best bet right now is mind uploading, which should make introspection and subsequent ascension much easier. (I know it's still a long shot, since we may not have that possibility before my body fails me —if ever. But it is my best bet.)

cLeEOGPw• 13 years ago

Many artificial intelligence researchers say mind uploading is probably never going to happen.

loup-vaillant2• 13 years ago

I believe you. I'd be shocked however to learn that it is the consensus in the AI community. Also, many brilliant people said heavier-than-air flight will never happen. Fermi himself didn't believe in supercritical nuclear chain reactions. I'm sure there are some other examples.

But the interesting question is: why is it never going to happen? I can see several reasons:

(1) Dualism is true: we have a soul without which our bodies could not function, and souls cannot be uploaded with mere earthly artefacts. Such machine not only wouldn't be us, they would be nearly empty shells. Like zombies, only mechanical.

(2) Subjective identity does not transfer to the machine along with the information contained in our bodies. While the machine would be a perfect copy, behaving like us and all, it wouldn't be us. Only problem, the others can't make the difference, so your elaborate form of suicide goes undetected.

(3) Mind uploading requires an understanding of the human mind that is forbidden to us because of its deep self-referential nature. Gödel theorems and such. A superior being could do it, but we cannot.

(4) Our minds run on quantum stuff that we can't copy without screwing them (measurements of quantum system tend to have significant consequences on the system).

(5) We could never attain the necessary technological level. Moore's law may cease to apply, we could screw ourselves in a major catastrophic event (World War III, virus from the lab, environmental collapse, Gray Goo accident, Skynet turning the solar system into paper clips… or the banal asteroid).

I think AI people only have authority on (3). Anyway, to the best of my knowledge:

(1) is bunk. The world most likely runs on math, and probably relatively simple math. Sure, we haven't found the complete laws of physics yet, but I have hope.

I wouldn't bet my life on (2) just yet, but it does sound improbable. My confidence is grounded on the fact that current physics say that copy&paste transportation works. If you were disassembled and scanned into a hard drive, then reassembled elsewhere with local material, it would still be you, not just a copy. Mind uploading only have the additional problem of the change of substrate (from neurons to silicon). I'm not sure it's a real problem though, because we could still imagine downloading you back into your body, only with a few additional memories.

(3) Shouldn't be much of a problem, provided we only need a low-level understanding of our inner workings. Self-referential or not, computer viruses are capable of copying themselves, because they don't need to comprehend themselves to do the copying.

(4) Is highly improbable. I know of no evidence pointing that way, and our neurons tend to respond in much more obvious ways to stimuli (easily detectable electrical impulses, modification of the blood stream, sizeable chemical reactions…). Anyway, we should probably ask neuroscientists.

(5) is the most probable in my opinion. That would really suck, but there is a good chance we bamboozle ourselves too deeply to ever recover.

Conclusion: like I said, it's a long shot. Not too long a shot however to give up hope just yet.

Swizec• 13 years ago

> "The antidote to the first kind of laziness— only wanting to eat and sleep— is to reflect on death and the impermanent nature of everything."

No, the antidote is boredom. Only eating and sleeping is boring.

beat• 13 years ago

Reflecting on death is boring.

jjb123• 13 years ago

One thing I've realized as we've gone from a group of friends to a company is that my 'to-do' list is constantly edited with items simply removed at the beginning or end of a day. I put things on there all the time thinking they're important, but once a day, I will re-assess and take certain things off so that the list does not bury itself/become meaningless. Productivity in my life seems to be a function of pragmatism and de-cluttering (both physical and mental).

davidroberts• 13 years ago

How about the fourth kind of lazyness--not knowing what the hell to do out of the many choices available, so you sit around hoping the right choice will make itself obvious. It can turn into a very long wait.

mikeg8• 13 years ago

That's more of extreme indecisiveness that turned into the first kind of lazy.

vishaldpatel• 13 years ago

Put all your choices in a hat and pick one. Your time runs out even faster when you lay there immobilized by choice.

orangethirty• 13 years ago

Pick one ad get moving. Nothing proves you wrong like doing things.

DustinCalim2• 13 years ago

we call this paralysis by analysis

ZirconCode• 13 years ago

I think you are in reality dealing with fear. I think the answer is to realize that you won't move forward if you don't do anything. Simply being scared that you will make, or made, the wrong choice is akin to a deer frozen in headlights.

I wrote a blogpost on this a while ago, I hope it helps you: http://zirconcode.blogspot.ch/2013/04/deciding-to-loose-free...

hnalias7• 13 years ago

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". That Rush quote seemed relevant.

I do this often myself. I try to make educated decisions which means researching all my options. Eventually you end up with "analysis paralysis". Being overwhelmed with all the choices and variables and the "right choice" isn't always clear.

I blame this somewhat on tv and movies that always have the epiphanic moment where the right choice becomes clear and the protagonist knows what to do. We usually don't get those in real life.

SatvikBeri• 13 years ago

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". That Rush quote seemed relevant.

Trivia: Rush were actually quoting Ayn Rand. It's entirely possible that the quote or at least the sentiment predates her too.

eseehausen• 13 years ago

"Alas", said the mouse, "the whole world is growing smaller every day. At the beginning it was so big that I was afraid, I kept running and running, and I was glad when I saw walls far away to the right and left, but these long walls have narrowed so quickly that I am in the last chamber already, and there in the corner stands the trap that I must run into."

"You only need to change your direction," said the cat, and ate it up.

-- Franz Kafka, A Little Fable

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Little_Fable)

ultimoo• 13 years ago

>> "You spend all your time trying to resolve minor problems, one after another in an endless sequence, like ripples on the surface of a lake. You tell yourself that once you've finished this or that project you'll start giving some meaning to your life."

This reminds me of another insightful quip from the Dalai Lama talking about Man -- "...he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."

virtualwhys6• 13 years ago

Quite similar to Thoreau's stated intent in going to Walden:

"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived."

lsiebert• 13 years ago

Code complete also talks about 3 types of laziness, and how some are more beneficial than others.

1. Deferring an unpleasant talk 2. Doing an unpleasant task quickly to get it out of the way 3. Writing a tool to do an unpleasant task so you never have to do it again

arianvanp• 13 years ago

You know you've done too much haskell for the day, when you expect this to be a haskell article. halfway through I realized, "What does buddhists have to do with haskelll... ooh shit my mind is molten"

dllthomas• 13 years ago

I came to ask "Which type is Haskell?"

leke• 13 years ago

I quite enjoy the first one actually. I mean, what good is it to do anything if we are just going to die? Eat good, sleep good, digest in the middle good. Very nice.

stormbrew• 13 years ago

For all the people who seem to find buddhist philosophy uplifting and empowering, I've never been able to see it as anything but deeply depressing. "Not doing anything with your life? Think about death and that'll fix it." ... I don't see it.

nsomaru2• 13 years ago

I suggest you see Steve Jobs' Stanford Commencement Speech (2005): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHWUCX6osgM.

The part which conveys this idea beautifully is this:

"Remembering that I'll be dead soon is the most important tool I've ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost everything — all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure - these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart"

Basically, If we deeply[1] accept/realise that we are transient beings (which requires significant reflection given that we all secretly act as though we are immortal, though we may intellectual comprehend that we are not), one may more clearly distinguish between what is important in life and what is superficial.

A definition of the Spiritual Path which appeals to me: "Nitya anitya viveka vichara" -- "the ability to discriminate between the eternal and the ephemeral" [2]

[1] As an inherent and basic measure from which all action emanates

[2] I would be willing to delve into that a bit deeper should anyone be interested.

DustinCalim2• 13 years ago

Sounds like your glass is half empty; try inverting your view

nsomaru2• 13 years ago

I cannot recommend the book mentioned in this post enough for anyone interested in the intersection between science/spirituality.

I found it challenged many assumptions held by my younger self who was a self-admitted atheist and believed in the ability of Science (in my limited understanding thereof) to explain everything.

I'm not saying that all the arguments presented therein are correct, but I found them quite suitable to rock my world-view.

Then again, "when the student is ready, the Guru will present himself" (a quote from my master).

qu4z-24• 13 years ago

I think science can, with enough effort, predict most things. Whether it explains anything is an open topic of debate in my friend group.

Also, just FYI, that's a fairly famous quote that gets tossed around a lot. Although usually with "teacher" or "master" in place of Guru. (Does anyone else have a negative connotation with that word?) I assume your master was referencing it.

6d0debc071• 13 years ago

I imagine there's some fairly serious miscommunication going on in quoting the fella in a context of general advice about laziness. A philosophy that tends to eschew materialism does not map well onto motivational speaking.

- I tried thinking about death, but it turned out nothing was really essential without desire and thus it didn't serve to get me desire.

- I tried thinking about the benefits of something I didn't believe I could do, but since I didn't believe I could do it I just felt depressed.

- Just drop everything and get down to what gives life meaning - meh, unless you're prepared to sacrifice an awful lot it can be difficult to just drop everything.

Buddhist philosophy is about... well, it's more about exploring consciousness and letting the experience of that change the way you relate to the world. If you're looking for something to change what sort of person you are, this may be an awfully long road for something that, at best, seems to touch on what you're interested in as a side effect. May perhaps be better off looking at research into akrasia/depression.

hkmurakami6• 13 years ago

3 weeks ago, I was hit by a car. I was cycling. The car was going 50mph. When I was hit from behind, it felt like a wall had come out of nowhere and had slammed into me. On the ground, I was in so much pain I couldn't move, yet as I lay on the ground screaming, I was strangely calm enough inside to be thankful that I wasn't dead.

I was in the hills (I had been training to prepare for a multi-month bike tour), so I was helicoptered to the hospital. If just a few things had gone worse, I could have been paralyzed or even dead. The driver had his eyes off the road to adjust his sun visor, so literally anything could have happened. I was aware of this myself but the paramedics and doctors all made sure to make me aware of my said luck. I've somehow gotten out with just a few broken ribs and abrasions throughout the left side of my body (probably will be permanent).

It's definitely brought a renewed sense of appreciation for the time I have left here on this little blue ball.

I wasn't going to write about this until all the insurance claims had been settled, but I felt compelled to spill the beans here on this occasion here. I guess it's a sign that I've grown pretty close to this community.

obviouslygreen6• 13 years ago

It's good to know you're OK after this; a friend was cut off by an SUV while riding his motorcycle and recounts a similar experience, though he still has a steel rod through one femur and 17 screws plus a plate in one wrist (which will eventually stop him from programming).

It's important to appreciate and enjoy the time we have. If we don't... what's the point?

hkmurakami6• 13 years ago

wow your friend has it so much worse than me, and it's harrowing to hear what basically could have easily happened to me. It really is miraculous that I'm most likely going to have no serious physical repercussions post-recovery. sucks to hear that his wrist injury is going to hamper him in such a grave way.

a friend of mine told me about a famous emacs contributor who has a keyboard that is only the "left half" but has a toggle key which switches it to the right half keys with one button, and that he is lightning fast with it. do you think that's something he'd be interested in using? he could also probably hand make something like that, like the custom keyboards that keyboard.io is making.

yarianluis2• 13 years ago

About five weeks ago I fell of my motorcycle into the path of an oncoming car on my way to Skyline/Woodside. The motorcycle went in front of it and lifted the car into the air. Then I slid underneath it. One of the rear wheels landed next to my head and I came out of the rear part of it.

The outcome was a broken left wrist. That's it. Literally nothing else happened to me.

There are things that happen to you that make it clear how close we all are to death at all times. I am glad to hear your injuries weren't too bad and hope you recover from them well.

Edit: I have to add, it's also times like these that you will oftentimes show you the best of people. The girl who was driving the car was very nice about everything and even offered me a ride into the city (more than 45 minutes) even though she lived in the opposite direction. The tow truck driver charged me only half the normal rate because "we gotta stick together" and he rode bikes too. Lots of people who were around near the accident helped immobilize my arm after the injury. The friendly folks down at Motoshop unloaded the bike and removed some of the ugly bits sticking out. Friend came to pick me up and take me to hospital. It was pretty inspiring. People are amazing.

hkmurakami6• 13 years ago

Coincidentally, I was hit on Skyline just north of Page Mill Road (I had climbed Page Mill from the bottom then had turned north on Skyline). But my gosh, talk about a close call for you... were you heading up highway 9 or 84 and slipped out?

I remember looking up towards the direction the car that hit me went and thinking, "please, please stop so you can call 911 for me," and the driver did stop and come back to me. He must have been in a state of panic, since he asked me, "Oh my god are you alright, can I do anything for you?" and I replied, gasping, "C-a-l-l 9-1-1".

In the ensuing minutes, a person with EMT training and a biker who was an off duty fireman stopped to check me out, make sure my hands and toes moved, made sure I didn't have pain in my neck, etc.

When a friend of mine crashed his bike descending Page Mill last summer (and fractured 3 spinal fins), a random car stopped for him and took him to Stanford hospital. Complete strangers!

You're absolutely right; give them an opportunity and people will show their wonderful side.

brudgers2• 13 years ago

Hacking is often prompted by a fourth species: productive laziness - lest we forget, seeking to not be lazy is also grasping.

Productive laziness leads to the improvement of tools from new programming languages to editor extensions to automating testing.

cafard• 13 years ago

Indeed, hard not to think of the Perl world's Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris. Or for that matter of Equord-Hammerstein's good words for laziness.

throwaway19806• 13 years ago

Does anyone else feel kind of confused and guilty when they read this? It just seems so condescending to me.

I like eating and sleeping. I pay a lot of attention to these things. If you're eating well and sleeping well, your life is probably going pretty good. Sure, I'm going to die, that's why food and sleep matter even more. This planet would be a pretty happy place if everyone was eating and sleeping as much as they needed.

Second, what the heck. Too lazy to work on perfecting myself? I thought spiritual enlightenment was about having a smaller ego, not a bigger one. I'm going to feel more motivated if I focus on how awesome I'll be if I do the inner work? You can't do this stuff for very long because you want to get something out of it, you only do it in the long term because circumstances push you into it and you have no choice.

Third, details vs. essentials. Details are bad now? You won't get far with only one or the other. Yes, essentials are important, but so are details. In startup terms, a great idea is essential, but you're dead without a great execution.

Anyway, "laziness" is such a crap word in a spiritual context. As if enlightenment was an achievement, when the point of just about every religion is being, not doing.

Eat. Sleep. Give yourself a break when you hit a wall; perhaps you ought to re-evaluate your priorities. Do a thorough and meticulous job on all of your little projects. Pay attention to what you're doing, and you'll come out of it all the wiser. Lack of progress in any one area is not laziness, it's a signal that you need to try a different course of action.

AlexDanger• 13 years ago

I think you're missing the point of the article.

Firstly, everyone understands the difference between healthy sleeping/eating versus sloth and gluttony. Everything in moderation right?

Secondly, you confuse ego with self-importance. A poor ego doubts itself and may never attempt a daunting task because of the belief one is not 'good enough' to complete it. This becomes a convienient excuse to avoid doing difficult (but worthwhile) tasks. A healthy ego will undertake challenging tasks, because failure (in the traditional sense) is ok - failure will not define you as a person. The success comes from learning along the way.

Thirdly, we all have to do trivial things. This is a fact of life. However, how many times have you focussed on non-essential details in a project to avoid the meat of the thing? Its a common form of procrastination I catch myself doing. You also see it in overstuffed corporate environments - the term 'busy work' comes to mind.

throwaway19806• 13 years ago

Look, the non-essential details here are all the particulars of this conversation about some religious precepts. The essence is that you and I trying to connect on a human level to each other across the internet for some reason or another. Both the essence and the details are important.

It's not really about what you do, it's about what you see and how you do it; the essence is always there, even if you're fixing idiotic bugs in some obscure corner of your codebase.

obviouslygreen6• 13 years ago

I have a close friend who's an intentional Buddhist. Based on my values and habits, he refers to me as a Buddhist; though this isn't something I choose for myself, I have a hard time disagreeing with him. So understand that my evaluation here is based on a limited understanding and not that of someone who follows this philosophy.

Based on my understanding, this is crap.

First off: Buddhists aren't trying to perfect themselves. They seek stillness and reflection, and harmony. Perfection isn't part of that lifestyle because it's not even a concept they believe in.

Second: Essential? Essential IS sleeping and eating. What about programming or resolving any of the impermanent problems of the human race is any more important, in a necessary sense, than the very vital acts that result in one's continued existence?

Life is short, and if we want to develop our inner qualities it's never too soon to start getting down to it.

This post, in its entirely a quote (or pair of quotes, I can't quite tell), succeeds only in telling us that the things we think we ought to do don't matter at all and we should instead concentrate on... something, and that something isn't even hinted at, let alone defined in a meaningful way.

hkmurakami6• 13 years ago

Wouldn't you say that that 'something' is an entirely personal choice?

obviouslygreen6• 13 years ago

You certainly could. But if that were their intention, it'd kind of defeat the purpose of suggesting that some things didn't qualify as "something."

Volpe2• 13 years ago

Talking about Buddhism as though it's just one belief is crap. That would be like grouping up Islam, Judaism, and the various Christian faiths and calling them the same. [1] Sure they all share "Buddha" in common, just as those above share "God" in common.

> This post, in its entirely a quote (or pair of quotes, I can't quite tell), succeeds only in telling us that the things we think we ought to do don't matter at all and we should instead concentrate on... something, and that something isn't even hinted at, let alone defined in a meaningful way.

You don't think the context of the heavy overtone of buddhism helps answer that "something"? Perhaps the article is hinting for you to make a conscious effort to find that "something" rather than just defaulting to what life throws at you. Or perhaps it was a more explicit effort to get you to explore buddhism?

I'd reread the article with the idea that it is just giving you information to reflect on, rather than just information to respond to.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism#Schools_and_traditions

pastaking• 13 years ago

The third kind of laziness is a contagious type of procrastination that eats away at you slowly from the inside. You won't know what happened until one day you realize that you're hollow.

I realized exactly that a few years ago (when I got into a car accident) but I didn't relate it to laziness. It's so important to have the courage to stop beating around the bush, especially when it comes to getting what you want out of life.

Great post! Now I'm intrigued by buddhism.

blendergasket• 13 years ago

For me laziness is usually driven by some or another fear.

jasonlotito3• 13 years ago

The reason why quips like this are dangerous is that people will assume that because of who Garry Tan is, they'll take his word for it.

Simply put, this is wrong. There are not three kinds of laziness. Better, it's wrong to assume that your laziness and inability to act is one of those three types mentioned.

As someone who was recently diagnosed with ADHD and OCD, I can assure you, reflecting doesn't solve anything. Nor are the three types mentioned accurate. Maybe the intent wasn't to classify ADHD and OCD as laziness, but until I was diagnosed, that's what I called it.

So no. This is dangerously wrong. If you have any thought that you might have ADHD or OCD, get it checked out. It can make a world of difference, not only in medication (which doesn't have to be addicting) but in therapy. The difference just over the last month has been staggering. It's a big difference, and hard to quantify.

If you have a problem, seek professional help in understanding it. Ignore meaningless platitudes "to reflect on death" and how there are "three kinds of laziness."

garry• 13 years ago

I'm sorry to hear about your diagnosis, and I wish the best for your ongoing treatment.

I agree with you -- if there is a medical condition that can be treated, then it makes sense to pursue that. I read a passage in a book earlier today that I liked, and I posted it on my personal blog. I would never encourage someone who had such problems to "just reflect on it."

jasonlotito3• 13 years ago

Thank you for the concern. On one hand, it's haunting to consider what it's like to learn you've been operating at 50% efficiency all your life. On the other hand, you focus on how much you've done in spite of the condition.

I didn't mean to imply that you would suggest to someone with a condition to "just reflect on it." No reasonable person would, and apologies if it came off like that.

Rather, my hope is that more people realize that this condition does exist, it does carry a stigma, and you might not find out until you are well into adult-hood. Too many self-help and GTD-like books and articles focus on simple tricks. These all might help out, but if you find yourself constantly struggling, get checked.

And if you know people like this, people that are otherwise smart and do good work, but are somehow always behind, always playing catch-up, suggest they get tested.

A part of me was ashamed about having this condition. I felt as if it said to everyone around me that I'd really never been giving 100%. That I had lied to people around me. I thought that I can't complain. I had a great life already, and who was I to worry about not doing enough. OCD and ADHD, the premier first world problems.

None of that is true, of course.

The truth is, the best thing I can do is speak up about it. Make people aware. And share with them the fact that proper treatment and care can result in a dramatic difference in their lives. That the more we are aware of ourselves, the better off we can be.

JDGM• 13 years ago

"Simply put, this is wrong. There are not three kinds of laziness."

This, especially, summarises my feelings about a vast number of HN submissions and articles on the internet in general of the form "The X kinds of Y" or "The 10 reasons Z" or "The Blahblahblah Principle". We all know this type of article. Many books too, especially in self-help and dieting, etc.

At best the writer has described a model which is useful for understanding some aspect of a larger picture, and at worst they are just doing reasonable-sounding pattern-recognition from a largely anecdotal pool, and then building what they believe is a bulletproof system from it all.

I remember when I was in university I wrote notebooks full of this kind of thing. I go through them from time to time and find interesting ideas wrapped up in way too much rigidity in search of a neat formalised system. There must be half a dozen "guru" bestsellers to be refined from those notebooks, if anyone had the time and lack of internal honesty to write them.

For a while now, variants of "Simply put, this is wrong" have been what my brain returns whenever I see such articles, yet I do still read them and I do still find nuggets.

qu4z-24• 13 years ago

I'd disagree that "reflect on death" is a meaningless platitude. It's a definite, actionable step. Whether it helps you or not is a different story, and really only you can find that out. In short, it's concrete advice, though whether good or bad I can't judge.

jasonlotito3• 13 years ago

It's a meaningless platitude.

> it's concrete advice

No, it's not. Your inability to defined whether it's good or bad advice, whether it's helpful or not, does not make it concrete.

It makes it a platitude. Oh shit, I reflected on death. Woohoo.

Now what?

alok-g• 13 years ago

There is fourth kind: Love for figuring out challenging problems but then not taking the time to implement the solutions (which sound boring once the problem has been figured out).

nileshtrivedi• 13 years ago

I often joke that a to-do list should be filtered through the 4 "D" filters: Discard, Delegate, Delay and Do. This is exactly the same as focusing foremost on what's important and urgent (Stephen Covey's time management matrix that everybody knows about). Just flips it around for a lazy man's perspective. :D

wavesounds• 13 years ago

Most Buddhist Monks depend on other people to feed them yet he is calling those people who work jobs they might not like to put food on their tables lazy? Wish this came from more of a place of compassion then judgement.

Volpe2• 13 years ago

I don't think he's saying that at all. Could you be viewing it from a place of judgement rather than compassion?

Do most buddhist monks depend on other people to feed them? More so than the rest of us?

nati• 13 years ago

who have not been all kinds of lazy at least one time? Just stand up and get exited about anything to get going again!

The Three Kinds of Laziness

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