My experiences in tech: Death by 1000 paper cuts

http://juliepagano.tumblr.com/post/46206589124/my-experiences-in-tech-death-by-1000-paper-cuts

by tghw • 13 years ago

112 199 13 years ago

juliepagano.tumblr.com

TillE• 13 years ago

"Microaggression" is the accepted term for all those things that are totally not a big deal and why can't you take a joke.

Very useful concept, particularly if you're not someone who has to suffer them daily and can't understand why one individual little incident is still an issue.

stcredzero4• 13 years ago

To clarify: You mean "why you can't take a joke" as an ironc reference, or as a factual statement?

rmrfrmrf9• 13 years ago

When an isolate microaggression is brought to light, the aggressor (or the supporters of the aggressor) usually respond with "why can't you take a joke?" or the infamous "now, I'm a big supporter of [diversity, feminism, equal rights], but this one situation is really not a big deal."

mynameishere• 13 years ago

I've experienced things from women in the workplace that would have resulted in instant termination had she been a man. But men have a higher threshold for not complaining about shit that doesn't matter.

vacri7• 13 years ago

So have I - I've had a morbidly obese Nurse Unit Manager with the hots for me come in and lean all over me - heavy and annoying. My female tech lead volunteered to provide evidence for a sexual harassment complaint if I wanted to. (I'm male, the NUM was female)

I didn't want to. The NUM came in maybe three times a year, for only a couple of minutes. It was just a passing discomfort, but the important thing is this: I never lost tangible power. I didn't work in an environment where it was commonplace. I never felt like I couldn't escape or verbally correct or even physically overpower her if things went too far. There was never a culture of undermining my power that it contributed to. I wasn't seen as more of a 'junior' because of it; it didn't diminish my status.

Separate to that, I wouldn't say men have a higher threshold for not complaining about shit that doesn't matter. In some senses they do, and in others they don't - the recent PyCon event showed vast amounts of men in tech providing plenty of vapid, shrill complaints over stuff that really didn't require that level of passion.

mkr-hn4• 13 years ago

> I've experienced things from women in the workplace that would have resulted in instant termination had she been a man.

I have too, but it's nowhere near as bad as what women I know tell me they deal with.

> But men have a higher threshold for not complaining about shit that doesn't matter.

This is sexist.

andyl• 13 years ago

I had a job where people were really mean to me too. It was like constant, never ending pressure! One time I got fired, cause my boss didn't like me, although he wouldn't say it to my face. That really hurt.

edw519• 13 years ago

Being a software engineer means whatever you choose for it to mean to you. Sorry to hear your choice of analogy. Not my choice for sure.

I'm not going to try to compare my pain with your pain or anyone else's; I just want to say that I've been shit on by almost everyone important in my life from the earliest age. But I found refuge in building software. It became my escape from all the other pain. I found a way to tune out all of that and focus on only 2 things: my customers and the tools they needed. And I found a great equalizer. Not because I had anything to prove, but because I found a natural solution: build what the customer needs and nothing much else matters. Don't build what they need: same thing.

Forget about the conferences (you don't really need them anyway). Forget about Facebook, twitter, Hacker News, reddit, etc., etc., etc. They're definitely more of a distraction than a help. Learn how to separate issues from details (it's amazing how little really matters). Try to tune out the negativity. I know it's hard, but just think of it as "systems analysis applied to people". Once you focus on what's really important to your customer, block out the distractions, and build what they need, all the bullshit will fade into the background.

Please don't allow your aversion to the negativity of others overwhelm your love of building software. Let the love defeat the hate. I did and I know you can too.

Best wishes and please keep us posted.

rmrfrmrf9• 13 years ago

From the Geek Feminism Wiki:

Clawed my way up is an excuse for sexism used in some geek discussions: "I clawed my way up all on my own, why can't you?"

Essentially, this argument is a denial of the effect of privilege on success. The person making it argues either that:

they, despite being oppressed in some way (often but not always experiencing poverty in childhood), are now very successful, and anyone who isn't is lazy

they, despite being oppressed in some way, never took advantage of any scheme designed to ameliorate oppression (such as scholarships targeted at certain groups)

there is no such thing as institutional privilege, there's just people who work hard and whining people who don't that natural selection operates at the level of success in society, and by attempting to ameliorate oppression, society is in fact doing itself harm

There are various problems with these arguments:

oppressions don't map perfectly to each other: someone who experienced, say, poverty can't map their experience onto someone who isn't white or is a woman, etc (see Oppression Olympics)

the experience of people with intersecting oppressions is generally discounted

it is unlikely in the extreme that the person speaking did not in some way benefit from privilege: for example, access to enough resources for the child to have a computer (perhaps a cheap secondhand one, but nevertheless), access to a library and time to read any books borrowed from the library, household members who did chores while the person speaking studied, etc.

it is at least unlikely that the person did not in some way benefit from schemes designed to ameliorate oppression, examples include but aren't limited to: free or cheap public schooling and free or cheap healthcare.

sneak9• 13 years ago

> I'm not going to try to compare my pain with your pain or anyone else's;

hacker7894• 13 years ago

You're responding to a point he isn't making. He's not claiming that one's circumstances don't contribute to one's success; obviously, we're all "privileged" to be living in the first world in the 21st century.

You took this opportunity to dismiss his personal experiences, and bizarrely, you implied that one's insight regarding a situation is entirely unwelcome without having personally experienced that exact same situation. If that's the case, take your own advice and leave him alone.

You're poisoning this discussion. Just stop.

zasz3• 13 years ago

I think she would find it more encouraging if you said something like, "damn, sexism sucks," rather than, "I struggled with a difficult life and made it, and you can too." I know you want to be encouraging, but ignoring the greater gender issues she was bringing up makes it seem like you're missing the point. I'm sure she is capable of getting encouragement from her friends, but publicizing sexism in the tech industry is for, well, the public, which includes men like you.

nhangen6• 13 years ago

But he's right, and this isn't sexism...and God I'm so tired of hearing about sexism in tech...this is life. If you are different, people probably won't understand and will react negatively towards it.

My wife isn't a math and science person, and she does not have the aptitude to be a programmer. Does that make me a sexist? Does that mean that all women are just like her?

The answer is no, it doesn't.

People focus on what they want to hear in order to validate their opinions. Who among us that is ambitious hasn't grown up with the pain that is going against the grain?

It sucks to be different, but that's the way it goes.

Edit: Here is an example of what I mean.

"For those of us who aren’t, it’s a regular signal that we’re not considered, that maybe we don’t belong."

Absolutely not true. It's just a speaker trying to build rapport with their audience by talking about something they understand.

"The heavy drinking makes some of us feel unsafe."

So only guys drink heavy? First of all, if you don't want to watch heavy drinking, don't go to an after party at a bar? Second, I've seen just as many wasted females as males at conference parties.

"A paper cut for every conference."

I've been to maybe a dozen conferences in the past 2-3 years and I haven't seen any of this. Maybe I've missed it, or I'm not looking, who knows.

slewis• 13 years ago

The blind-upvoting of celebrities on HN is sometimes appalling. This comment totally sidesteps the point of the article. OP is not asking for advice.

You are not being helpful here. She clearly points out "That no matter how tough I get, how thick my skin, the paper cuts still hurt." So telling her to get thicker skin really just adds one more papercut to the pile (and the rest of this thread will heap on a few more).

OP your post is well done and paints a clear picture. Hopefully you and others like you will continue to inspire folks to change.

hacker7894• 13 years ago

He is allowed to share his life experiences and offer his advice to the readers of an online discussion forum, even if the author of the article linked at the top of the thread didn't solicit personal advice. He doesn't need anyone's permission.

Women aren't fragile creatures who need constant protecting. The author of the article is not your personal damsel in distress. She is a human who feels she has faced challenges.

So is edw519.

stcredzero4• 13 years ago

> You are not being helpful here. She clearly points out "That no matter how tough I get, how thick my skin, the paper cuts still hurt."

I find this strange. He is potentially suggesting a way for her to avoid around 99% of the paper cuts.

If it's death by 1000 cuts, then it could well be survival by 10.

sequoia• 13 years ago

> Try to tune out the negativity. I know it's hard, but just think of it as "systems analysis applied to people".

Hahaha... this is a joke, right? This reads like a caricature of someone being patronizing.

In case it's not a joke, let me be plain: you are being ridiculously patronizing. "I know it's hard, but..."? This is the way you speak to a child.

"Try to tune out..." Do you honestly think OP doesn't do this on a daily basis; that she hasn't been doing this for years? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm truly interested in whether you think that "tuning out negatvity" is a new, novel concept that never occurred to OP.

Ed: please take a moment to consider the tone of your post next time you are posting.

rmc• 13 years ago

Now imagine that was on a techie job advert, or it was said to you during an interview. What would us hackers say?

nextstep• 13 years ago

Sounds like a shitty work place, and she was a woman. Those guys sound like assholes. She should find another job; not everything in "tech" is like this. I don't feel this way at my current position.

jpxxx• 13 years ago

She should disrupt her life and tear down her most important professional relationships to go somewhere that doesn't exist?

calinet6• 13 years ago

I was in a negative situation at a workplace (despite being a straight male) and yes, I did exactly that, and found a new job that was a hundred times better.

Sometimes it's a good idea to leave and find something better. Sometimes it's worth it to stay and try to change the situation. It's difficult to say when each action is appropriate, but you can't say that either one is strictly a poor choice.

In other words, yes, she absolutely should if it makes sense.

juridatenshi8• 13 years ago

As mentioned in the post, I don't work there anymore. It's worth noting that this isn't the first bad experience I've had at a workplace (see other post [1]). Also, several of the things I mentioned have nothing to do with work, so a new job doesn't solve them.

[1]http://juliepagano.tumblr.com/post/46216419829/my-experience...

subsystem2• 13 years ago

You unfortunately doesn't seem to be alone in that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4LExVkv4Pw#t=6m14s

hsmyers2• 13 years ago

"Works for me" is never an answer

eksith• 13 years ago

Maybe not everything, but certainly a lot of places. There are two women I work with and they have had similar experiences to varying degrees in the past and it seems to be that the smaller the comapanies (as in our case) the less likely these instances happen. Preconceptions are harder to hold on to (unless there's an ultra-douche on the team, in which case it's a management problem as well) when you really get to know someone.

It doesn't help that it starts early on -- I'm hopeful the millennials will be raising their children differently -- and the infuriating and frustrating preconceptions that women endure now will fade to nothingness.

grannyg00se4• 13 years ago

" I’ve had people claim minority-only safe spaces are sexist. "

What is a minority-only safe space? Is it just a segregated area that implies safety in homogeneity, or is there some other mechanism to ensure "safety"?

I can imagine segregating all of a particular minority into their own area of the office for their own "safety". Hopefully that's not what this is.

juridatenshi8• 13 years ago

I was alluding to groups (in person or online) that are limited to only a specific minority audience, usually with the intent of creating a space where those people will feel safe to speak freely. For example, the Devchix mailing list is only open to women-identified people.

tiredofcareer22• 13 years ago

Not trolling, I'm genuinely asking:

Would you consider it sexist if someone started a developer list only for people that identify as male? Would you consider it racist if white people started a conference where only white people could attend?

I can't make the leap to consider female-only developer lists not sexist or exclusionary without setting aside hesitation regarding the concept since my brain wants to consider it a double standard. Even in the face of privilege, another concept I can't really wrap my head around, but which even daring to question or seek explanation of inflicts the wrath of people who hate my privilege. (Nothing has come easy to me in my white male life. Nothing. I hate when people tell me I'm privileged, as it makes me feel like life is pretty hopeless, given the painful career and personal life I've experienced thus far. My life should be easier if I am privileged, right?)

As a man, I'd look down on a male-only mailing list, just like I somewhat look down on female-only mailing lists. How about a mailing list for human beings? I just don't get it. Why do we have to identify so hard with what we are?

Maybe I have a different perspective on privilege because I'm fat and ugly, and only the attractive white men get it, or something. But seriously, if I have privilege, how do I take advantage of it? Is there something I have to do to make it happen? Because I'd sure like to see it since everybody tells me I have it.

(I genuinely loathe "oh, you're a white male, life must be easy for you," just as much as you surely hate people snubbing your gender. I wasn't born into money. I wasn't born attractive. I wasn't born in a great town. I have a felony conviction. This is my second career. I've had to claw my way to success just like everybody else.)

---

EDIT: Thanks for having a shot at this, men. I'm interested in OP's answer.

steveklabnik6• 13 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-space

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space

sneak9• 13 years ago

I think that the fundamental issue is that, while reasonable people understand that jokes, even in-group jokes that may potentially exclude someone atypical (for any definition of atypical), do not an unsafe space make... there are still others who would hold up such jokes (which are easy to attack, though not the root cause) and the idea of a "safe space" (which is a good thing), and claim that "this is the problem".

They are wrong. The problem is never jokes.

rmrfrmrf9• 13 years ago

This is a fantastic article. Of course, I'm disappointed (though not surprised) that commenters here continue to deny this person's experience.

hsmyers2• 13 years ago

Actually given the norm for HN, this is pretty supportive and that is sad

frio• 13 years ago

I know an upvote is all we're supposed to offer when agreeing, but given the rest of the discussion here, it's probably worth putting it in writing too. The response well-written, thoughtful articles like this garner saddens me.

coopdog• 13 years ago

I don't think that "my wife doesn't understand why I like technology" is a sexist comment. Substitute husband and it would read just the same.

rmrfrmrf9• 13 years ago

Haha, once again, the Geek Feminism wiki addresses this EXACT argument.

-----

"Suck it up and deal" is a common response to examples of gender discrimination. For example, suppose "Bob" asks "Alice" for an example of why female students may feel unwelcome in computer science classrooms, and "Alice" says, "Suppose you walk into a classroom and the first thing you hear is the lecturer saying 'we need to make our systems so usable that even your mom could use them'; would you feel more or less welcome?" It's common for "Bob" to respond that he wouldn't feel unwelcome in such a situation if he were a woman, because he would just suck it up and deal; after all, "Bob" would say, computer scientists frequently use "so easy your mom could use it" as a benchmark, and anyway, why would he let that stop him from being interested in computer science?

As a rhetorical device, "Suck it up and deal" serves as a double bind: if you fail to give examples of sexist comments or behavior, you're accused of inventing a problem. If you do give examples, almost any example can be dismissed as something women would be able to deal with if they weren't oversensitive / overemotional / not really interested in technology anyway.

"Suck it up and deal" is also a convenient way of disregarding the emotional labor required to, in fact, suck it up and deal (something almost any woman in a technical career already does frequently just to get through the day), the toll that such labor takes on a person over time, and the energy it drains that could otherwise go into work. Like the Male experience trump card, "Suck it up and deal" is a way for people who have never had sexist comments aimed at them to deny the reality that such comments have an effect.

Source: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Suck_it_up_and_deal

grannyg00se4• 13 years ago

That doesn't seem to apply. "Suck it up and deal" wasn't the suggestion, it was a clear case of lack of understanding of the issue. "Suck it up and deal" implies that the person acknowledges that there is a problem (something to "suck up") but that it is not very significant and should be ignored.

The real problem here is that the "my wife doesn't understand..." statement implies a camaraderie among men to the exclusion of women. And that type of exclusion over time will lead to feelings of unwelcome. Even if there is no direct offense or exclusion intended.

This particular issue likely wouldn't be an issue at all if there wasn't such a gender disparity in the first place because it would be more difficult to mistakenly imply exclusion when there is no hint of exclusion in the environment. And that's sometimes the problem with these difficult to appreciate minority issues. It's hard to even understand what the issue is without being part of the minority.

snogglethorpe• 13 years ago

But ... the example used in that description doesn't match this case at all.

"My wife doesn't ..." is a simple descriptive (and presumably accurate unless there's some reason to believe otherwise) statement about a specific person, not a stereotype.

Complaining that your spouse doesn't understand/appreciate something that's important to you is very, very, common—regardless of their sex—because the opinion of one's spouse is something most people value and worry about.

If the person had said "my wife, being a woman, doesn't ..." then it would be a stereotype, and maybe the entry you quoted would be relevant...

[EDIT: reading the original quote in context, it actually makes more sense there: it's easy to imagine that a line intended as a speaker's joke at a conference really is intended to riff off of a common stereotype (and the assumption that the audience shares this experience), rather than being a simple complaint about the speaker's personal situation...]

1123581321• 13 years ago

"This was predicted, so therefore it is wrong," is not a persuasive argument. Naturally, many people have pre-written responses to things they find disagreeable. That some parties have collected these pre-responses into one location and given it a name does not make that collection authoritative. You might do better to simply make your own point rather than weaken it with these citations.

walms3• 13 years ago

So what is the solution?

furyofantares• 13 years ago

I have used the "mom" example a few of times. My mom is quite capable, so most anecdotes I have of times I've gained insight into how people use computers when they aren't familiar with them are of other people in my life. But I do have a few anecdotes about her that I've used.

One day someone was Wrong On The Internet and I really wanted to make my point and found myself making my point with a "mom" example that had never actually happened with her. Initially it made me a little uncomfortable, and I thought the discomfort came from representing my mother as less capable than she is. But I figured I'm anonymous, and since I could be anyone,I'm not really talking about my mom specifically. "My mom" could be any mom and I was conveying something I figured might happen to lots of moms.

So I posted it anyway. It wasn't until later that I realized how extremely obviously sexist and ageist it was. The ONLY reason I was using "mom" in that example was to enlist the stereotype that older women aren't adept with technology. That made me further realize that even when I was using true anecdotes from my life, I was likely motivated to do so because enlisting the stereotype strengthened whatever point I happened to be making.

When I read the girlfriend/wife line from the OP I thought the same thing as many responders here do: There's nothing wrong with someone sharing a true fact about their experience being in a relationship with someone that doesn't care as much about technology. But that can still be sexist if you are unknowingly choosing to share the fact because the point you are making is made stronger by enlisting a stereotype that women don't care about technology.

thristian• 13 years ago

The issue is not the content of the sentence, it's the relative frequency of the sentence. The stereotype of the non-technical female is pretty common: people talk about "software that even your mother could use" or simple things that pass "the grandma test". Practically nobody talks about dumbing down technical content for their husbands, fathers or grandfathers.

Smudge• 13 years ago

I always assumed we call it the "grandma test" because by the time it matters grandpa's probably already dead.

juridatenshi8• 13 years ago

I didn't claim the comment was sexist in my post. I said that it was a regular reminder that speakers don't consider me (and other demographics) part of their audience.

The thing is, I've never heard a woman speaker make a similar joke about her husband/boyfriend or a non-heterosexual speaker make a similar comment about their partner. Maybe I'd feel differently if there was more of a mix.

Niten4• 13 years ago

> The thing is, I've never heard a woman speaker make a similar joke about her husband/boyfriend or a non-heterosexual speaker make a similar comment about their partner.

Well, taking for granted the fact that there are more men than women in computer science and engineering / IT, presumably a higher percentage of women (and homosexual men) in tech have had success finding a significant other who shares their primary interests than vice-versa.

(Assuming you're the author of this blog) obviously much of what you mentioned in this post is flat-out sexism and needs to be addressed. But if I joke or complain that my $SIGNIFICANT_OTHER doesn't get my interests, and that $SIGNIFICANT_OTHER happens to be female makes you feel alienated... really, that's your problem. The fact that you have experienced actual sexism in some contexts is not mutually exclusive with the possibility that you are being oversensitive about this.

timack• 13 years ago

Substitute "partner" instead of a gender specific term and you won't offend anyone (hopefully)... except maybe the forever alone crowd.

RougeFemme• 13 years ago

In one job, the women used to complain that the boss literally could/would not hear the women when they spoke - at least when they were speaking seriously, offering suggestions, analysis, etc. (He was great for sharing beers, shooting the breeze, discussing current events, etc.) The other men always insisted we were being paranoid/militantly feminist/attention-seeking, etc. One guy finally "saw" it - but not until he had given his 2-weeks' notice. I guess that's when he finally felt comfortable taking the blinders off - or finally acknowledging what he had always seen. I used to say that even mosquitos got more respect from our boss than we did, because he had swatted at them when he heard them.

wpietri10• 13 years ago

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -- Upton Sinclair

Of course, when he said it, "man" meant "person".

To be maximally fair to the guys, this stuff is really hard to see. Part of it is just that everything is hard to see unless it's somehow personal for you. But the bigger part for me was that really seeing it required a trip down the rabbit hole to seeing all sorts of privilege. All sorts of my privilege, really. Who wants to know that a chunk of one's sense of self-worth is false? It's real work, and I feel lucky that my circumstances disposed me to seeing it more easily than most.

sneak9• 13 years ago

"The heavy drinking makes some of us feel unsafe."

Equating rape culture with alcohol-consumption culture doesn't solve the root problem, it only alienates the vast majority of those of us who enjoy drinking occasionally who have never raped or assaulted anyone ever.

The solution to "some people are alienated" is not "alienate the dominant group right back".

juridatenshi8• 13 years ago

You're reading an awful lot into my sentence. You may want to think about why that is.

sneak9• 13 years ago

I suppose it's because I've encountered a lot of people who say many of the things that you do that attack anyone male, regardless of their role in the oppression of women.

In fact, you are offering non-oppressive behavior of others, and your negative emotional reaction thereto, in the midst of a litany of examples of you being oppressed. It reads as an accusation— aimed at the wrong group.

Why do people drinking heavily make you feel unsafe?

What is your ideal resolution to such a circumstance wherein you are made to feel unsafe because others are drinking heavily?

newnewnew5• 13 years ago

The point of alcohol is to lower inhibitions. More Bad Things happen per person hour under intoxication than sober, by design of the substance.

Recently, I've had the thought that feminists and hardline social conservatives ought to find common ground around the alcohol/party culture. Feminists should also ask themselves - for whom and by whom was this culture made in the first place? Does it work in women's favor? It's unrealistic to think that we can reduce sexual aggression while leaving this culture the same.

I wonder what percent of sexual assault occurs while both parties are sober?

abstractbill• 13 years ago

The point of alcohol is to lower inhibitions.

So even when I'm at home on my own watching a great documentary on netflix, and I have a beer or two, you're saying I can only be doing it to lower my inhibitions?

danenania• 13 years ago

It's the same way a woman might feel uncomfortable at a bar or party full of drunk guys with no or few other women present. It doesn't mean she has a problem with or is intimated by any particular man there, or alcohol, or men in general. The combination of a stark gender imbalance and the de-inhibiting effects of alcohol can create a testosterone charged atmosphere, especially if many of the men are young and single, and it simply isn't pleasant for someone outside that mold to be part of.

jhspaybar• 13 years ago

Geez people, why can't we just take this as a moment of reflection. Read this story and say "damn, that's not cool someone feels that way, I wonder what I can do to make life better for the people around me?" It doesn't matter if you think she's over-reacting, or thin skinned, or any other judgement you've made of her after reading her post. Be a decent human being and realize that by being aware, you can make our industry a better place to be for all people. If you think she's just being "moody", there are plenty of guys who see and hate this behavior of our industry and would love for the environment t to improve. As someone who spent 8 years as a car salesman(a 95%+ male industry), the vitriol towards and objectification of women in tech is just about as bad. It's time to wake up.

smackmybishop6• 13 years ago

I want an example of a time when there was "vitriol" toward women in the tech industry. I've certainly never seen it.

ceol3• 13 years ago

Is this a joke? She just gave a bunch of them in her post.

steveklabnik6• 13 years ago

Were you not around last week or something?

vacri7• 13 years ago

Were you away from HN during the "PyCon Event"? It was only a couple of days ago, and was a startlingly clear example.

shadowspar3• 13 years ago

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents

Fill your boots.

GhotiFish3• 13 years ago

but that's what I always do! Whenever I read these problems, this is what I think! The only problem is, every time I think "damn, that's not cool someone feels that way, I wonder what I can do to make life better for the people around me?" I can not think of anything. There is nothing I could do! Absolutely nothing. I wrack my brain every time, but I can't do a damn thing.

How about this: I'll gather every single programmer in my office. I'll stand there infront of 30 software engineers and I'll tell them:

   "The reason women arn't successful in technology is because you are implicitly 
    denying them the chance! You need to re-evaluate on what criteria you are 
    using to judge someones actions or opinions."

   "But Fish, there are NO female programmers in this office. All 30 of us are male. 
    We have no one to discriminate against."

   "uhh... and ITS YOUR FAULT!"

That's why these posts are frustrating. I've met three women in my life who actually typed code into a computer. 2 sucked at it, 1 was pretty good but didn't enjoy doing it (hey for the record that's better than the males, who come in 80% bad to 20% good).

You know what's weird? Regarding the skill of that one good girl programmer? No one doubted it. No one patronized her, everyone knew she was good.

I can't possibly wake any more up! I'm awake! I swear!

psycr• 13 years ago

This is exactly how I feel, for what it's worth. I'm certainly not perfect - I've probably alienated people before - but I want to consciously avoid doing so, and to try to make a difference. What to do though? Just listen?

wpietri10• 13 years ago

Well, one thing you could do is attend conferences and decide that you personally are the one responsible for upholding the code of conduct.

I think it's interesting that in the Adria Richards fiasco, almost everybody focused on the reaction of one person who heard the off-color jokes. But there were probably 5 other people who heard them as well. Adria reacted because she had been sensitized to that sort of thing. But any one of those other guys could have said, "Dude, that's not cool. You're at a conference." And that would have been the end of it, because Adria wouldn't have felt like the burden of enforcement fell on her.

Another thing you could do: carefully examine your recruiting pipeline. 30 male engineers in one company is statistically odd. Last I was recruiting, I was very careful to put the word out in ways that were likely to increase the number of female applicants. We also made sure we had decent benefits and sane working hours. Eventually we also moved our office to a better neighborhood, partly because some women expressed safety concerns there.

Or you could do something like Etsy did: http://allthingsd.com/20120612/inside-etsys-gambit-to-hire-m...

Or you could start volunteering at events designed to get more women into tech. Or just supporting them with cash. I give regularly to the Ada Initiative and Black Girls Code.

lallysingh• 13 years ago

Exactly what I was thinking. It's treating half of the human population: mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, as an inferior class of people. It's ridiculous and absurd.

It's also something that's both new and western. Programming, as an occupation, used to have a much healthier mix of genders. Looking at foreign-born computer scientists at my old grad school and at work, the ratio distortion is pretty unique to here. I donno what the cause is, but it is cultural. And we don't have enough of a culture for it to be anything more substantial than the accumulation of "1000 papercuts."

I think it's happening out of a combination of childishness and laziness. Most of us who repeat the same little phrases like "so easy my mom can do it" over and over just do it because we're too lazy to come up with a metaphor of our own. Here's an example replacement: "So easy a congressman can do it." (I don't think I have to explain the childishness part).

So, as colleges have higher proportions of women in the US, are we going to lose domestic undergraduate CS programs due to a lack of interest?

s_baby• 13 years ago

>Be a decent human being and realize that by being aware, you can make our industry a better place to be for all people.

The problem is the agendas that ride on the coat-tails of such dialogues. If we could separate the baby from the bath water that'd be great but a culture moulded by P.C zealots does not make the culture a better place.

brucehs• 13 years ago

I find this Scalzi piece a useful point of reflection:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...

newnewnew5• 13 years ago

That's what we need, another article that treats all members of <class> as piece of a homogenous whole.

Sunlis• 13 years ago

I hope you don't let your negative experiences push you away from working in (software) engineering. The field in general is already over-saturated with men and I could imagine it being an intimidating field to get into when you're the only female programmer in the office. (My office of about 150 people has only 2 or 3 female programmers, the other 5 or so women are payroll, receptionist, etc.)

It's easy for us as men to feel welcome and comfortable in a group composed almost entirely of men, and I suppose it ends up being sort of self-fulfilling at that point to "keep women out", even if we don't all intend for that to happen. I know that walking into an interview and sitting across from 3 women scares me a little bit, but I can't even imagine how I would feel in an office full of women; definitely out of place.

TL;DR: Please stick with it! The best way to help the female students and interns to be more comfortable in the field is to get as close to a 50:50 gender split as possible.

smackmybishop6• 13 years ago

Overdramatic paranoia. Get over yourself.

newnewnew5• 13 years ago

One source of these "paper cuts" is that we live immersed in a highly sexual culture. "Booth babes" are provided for men to oggle at tech conferences, but the idealized female body is also used to sell beer, cars, and hamburgers to us on TV. Cleavage shots are common on highway billboards. "Dongle" jokes are on Family Guy, the Daily Show, HBO, CBS, NBC, and even PG movies (I remember a penis joke in "Shrek"). When guys make sexual comments, they are simply participating in the culture that they live in.

While tech has some attitudes that are undeniably sexist, comments that would happen in any industry are perceived as more threatening because the gender ratio is so out of whack. If females felt safer in tech, then they wouldn't notice as much the background noise of cultural hyper-sexuality.

It feels unfair or unreasonable to many men to check their American culture at the door in order to make females feel comfortable in tech, which is the source of the recent shitshow over PyCon. Most men are willing to fight blatantly sexist shit - the groping and nasty comments reported from tech conferences over the last few years. I am 100% on PyCon's side with the code of conduct and support resources for women.

But males in tech simply don't know how to have a conversation without "that's what she said". That's what they hear at night on "How I met your mother".

We have a sexually libertine culture. That is viewed as "progress" by some, including many feminists, but it is not without costs. And there is no easy way to silence it.

walms3• 13 years ago

I think this is a very important point. Why is it that we accept grossly sexual comedy and imagery as means to advertise to the masses. Yet in the work place this same culture is seen as totally unacceptable.

Personally I think we have gone way to far with what we accept in the media and it's only getting worse.

sneak9• 13 years ago

> Personally I think we have gone way to far with what we accept in the media and it's only getting worse.

Personally I think we have gone way too far with what we deem "unprofessional" or "inappropriate".

I'm with Louis CK when I find myself being offended by hearing some white lady with nice hair saying the phrase "the N word" on CNN.

wpietri10• 13 years ago

Why? Because the television comes with an off switch. If you don't like the channel, change the channel.

But that absolutely does not apply to one's job or one's profession. You can't change those in milliseconds, and it's unfair to suggest that people should.

tiredofcareer22• 13 years ago

> We have a sexually libertine culture.

If only that were the case. We have a long way to go before we're in a sexually libertine culture.

Can't even show breasts on television without half the God damned country flipping its shit. Can only hint at it! And those aren't even sexual by nature. One needs only examine Donglegate to see how 'sexually libertine' we are...

3minus1• 13 years ago

Really well-written article. Thanks for sharing.

birken• 13 years ago

Treating coworkers with respect should always be the first responsibility of all employees. Many of these situations you describe are gender discrimination, but even at a higher level they are just an example of coworkers not showing respect for one another. I've worked for 2 places in a row where not showing respect for your fellow coworkers is literally a fireable offense. These places exist. Many of the behaviors you mentioned in your post would be so far over the line of appropriateness that it wouldn't even been a question or issue. If you brought them up to your manager immediate action would be taken.

So I'd encourage you just to keep looking if you continue to run into these issues. All tech companies are not like this.

pifflesnort• 13 years ago

Software has apparently become some sort of social cause, instead of an engineering discipline, and my patience with this constant caterwauling about it is at its end.

I too am dealing with death by a thousand cuts of unprofessionalism:

- People swearing in presentations, and then people whining about swearing in presentations.

- Presentations that aren't backed by research or papers or anything of particular engineering note, but instead are a platform for social butterfly developers to build a larger popularity platform.

- Conferences named after beer drinking.

- Constant whining about some sort of offense that someone dealt you, or some social situation that you were unable to handle like an adult.

- Constant wheel re-invention of 1990s engineering dressed up in fancy websites with funny names like "unicorn" or 'nyan rainbow cat daemon'.

- Conference blow-ups about things that SHOULD NOT MATTER. Like dongles. Multiple people losing their jobs and articles in CNN.

- Drama-fests about workplace behavior, cancelled talks, "triggers", t-shirts that make people cry.

I'm sick of this. THIS is what a real conference with real papers look(ed|s) like:

http://static.usenix.org/events/usenix01/technical.html

https://www.usenix.org/system/files/tech-schedule/atc12_proc...

Maybe this is just what happens when a fringe group like technology is re-integrated into the mainstream, but I would like to go just one day without hearing about some other act of stupidity, sexism, tweets, or social anxiety, and instead focus on what actually matters, which is real, hard, respectful, careful, and attentive ENGINEERING.

Locke1689• 13 years ago

You know, Microsoft may not be "cool," but heck if I'm not thrilled to be in a work place concerned with

1) Engineering

2) Business

And that's about it.

tiredofcareer22• 13 years ago

It's interesting, that being the case as you say, that the industry has turned so hard on Microsoft in most aspects. I might even upgrade from "interesting" to "telling" or, more bravely, "damning" for that observation.

Nursie• 13 years ago

I think we may have lost that battle. People are interested in 'rockstars' and 'ninjas' that can make shiny things and contribute to a hype cycle long enough to get acquired.

campnic• 13 years ago

It's pretty simple, honestly. For an entire day, just make things. I've found that the noise in our industry is pretty easy to ignore with minimal loss to signal by merely choosing when to partake. If you want to avoid all those things you list, it basically means detaching from the social components of the industry ... one example of which is HN.

nhangen6• 13 years ago

This is probably the best comment I've ever read on HN, and it sums up my feelings about a vast majority of complaint threads on this forum. Especially this:

"Software has apparently become some sort of social cause, instead of an engineering discipline."

shadowspar3• 13 years ago

Nascent awareness of sexism and corresponding initiatives to deal with it aren't something that's limited to software at all. Science, academia, and the skeptic/atheist community are all in the midst of similar changes right now as well.

wpietri10• 13 years ago

People make software for other people. We do it in the context of a society of people. That is our industry.

There are times when you can ignore the people and focus on the machines. But only for a little while, and only if you do a lot of careful work before and after.

tiredofcareer22• 13 years ago

Before computing, I worked in motion pictures as a lighting director. I'm credited, and my name is in IMDB. You've very likely seen some of my work if you're a fan of the indie circuit. I pivoted to computing after six films because I found it a more interesting line of work and it's something I've done since I was a kid (I trained on lighting later in life).

That gives me the perspective of two careers: one full of primadonnas, constant whining, arguing over trivialities, pampering, and bizarre celebrity status, and the other one being motion pictures.

(Cheap joke aside, I found film a more calming career. I certainly came home angry less.)

kefka2• 13 years ago

At least from my perspective (of watching internet fallout of bad thing said at 'con), it seems Open Source is worse than Closed Source about chauvinistic comments. Does that jive with your assessment?

kefka2• 13 years ago

You've got a good point there. Engineering is about making stuff, exploiting physics principles to make completely new stuff, and making stuff "faster better cheaper". Nowhere does it say "Make it better if you're a Man". Nowhere does it say an engineer _has_ to be male.

In cases like this, I think a bit of the hacker manifesto, and some of the things it alludes to.

" "This is it... this is where I belong..." I know everyone here... even if I've never met them, never talked to them, may never hear from them again... I know you all..."

And we enter the world of IRC, email, and text based chat of all sorts. I do not see your sexuality when I talk here via HN. Nor do I see your income level, social status, gender status, religion, political bent, or anything else, unless you tell us. What I know, is: You speak English, you have a computer in front of you, and you're on the Internet.

subsystem2• 13 years ago

It's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but you know what? I kind of agree with you.

Conferences has become more about getting a free trip, blowing off steam and asserting yourself in a group than making good software. A bunch of people with similar skill-sets meet and agree that their particular technology choice is great or not so great. That's not how you build great software. We figured this out 20 years ago in the demo scene and it's still true today. Some people are starting to realize this and are calling not only for more women, but for more diversity overall.

This talk really says it better than I can and it should be 'required reading' for anyone in the community: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAOxGjNbp_Y

mum61e• 13 years ago

Oh. I thought conferences were a way of networking yourself a better job at your current employer's expense.

raganwald• 13 years ago

Software has apparently become some sort of social cause, instead of an engineering discipline

I liked this.

My patience with this constant caterwauling about it is at its end.

I didn't like this, because it implies that the problem is the caterwauling. You then go on to make it clear that the problem is that people can't handle the industry or the culture, not the industry or the culture.

Well, the correct way forward is for everyone to suck it fucking up and start acting like adults, including respecting each other. Some of that includes being less dramatic about problems, but there is also a HUGE responsibility to eliminate those problems in the first place.

Absolutely nobody should be losing jobs over dongle jokes, but then again, nobody should be making dongle jokes. This isn't an either-or blame situation, just an observation that everybody wins if we don't make dongle jokes.

tiredofcareer22• 13 years ago

Let's start with a base assertion: Human beings are wired and programmed to reproduce.

Yes? Everybody agree? Assuming I didn't lose anybody there.

Onward: tricky business about sex, particularly from men (who I think are programmed in a much more culturally-unfriendly way when it comes to sex; multiple partners, ogling, and so forth), is unfortunately going to happen. Kind of like farting. It's noble that most of us can keep it under control in the workplace. Guarantee that even the quietest, most reserved, shy, never-an-HR-issue male employee, even ones who openly fight for feminist causes here, has occasionally looked at cleavage and thought, "boy, those are great tits." Equally so if the man is gay, just the opposite gender that produces that reaction. It happens. Everybody does it. Women do it too. You are programmed to admire the reproductive and aesthetic traits of the gender(s) that arouse(s) you. You shouldn't be ashamed of it.

Nothing so far has been controversial, I hope. I might have lost a certain group at the end of the last paragraph. Let me finish quickly while they start typing:

It's unreasonable to expect both men and women, biologically, to completely suppress sex in any form whatsoever. That culture expects us to is, I think, a bug in culture(+). There is something broken here on both sides of the gender divide, and I don't know that we understand as a culture how to fix it. Through some horrible perfect storm of social issues among the average programmer, I think we just see this problem amplified to the moon and back. I've been to construction sites. Visit one sometime. Talk to the workers.

I feel like for countless years culture has been at war with humanity. We shame sex across the board, we shame farting and burping, we shame natural odors, we shame hair in certain places for certain genders, we shame vulgarity, we shame picking our noses... the list goes on and on and on. Where's the culture that understands its members are human beings with flaws?

Maybe, just maybe, I feel like political correctness and attempting to 'fix' human beings has done more harm than good. Maybe we're acting appropriately and reacting inappropriately. Fair point?

(+) The source of this bug is a patch committed by a religious working group, and that patch should be reverted, but that's an argument for another time.

nhangen6• 13 years ago

'suck it fucking up and start acting like adults, including respecting each other.'

Agreed.

'nobody should be making dongle jokes'

What have we come to where I can't sit with a friend and shoot the shit about dongles? I can tell you that some of my best 'that's what she said' moments were in the midst of another woman, who had some of the best of all.

ikkyu2• 13 years ago

This isn't really a unique story. Understand that it sucks to be treated like that but the same can be said about women dominant workplaces. Sexism and not being taken seriously can be found everywhere. I've been called "sweetie", "honey" with a demeaning tone on daily basis, I've heard about fucking so and so and drama that goes with it, my opinion was dismissed and I was left out from the "club" more times than I care to remember and females usually got better treatment simply by being a female countless time.

This shouldn't be news, this is just life.

wpietri10• 13 years ago

I'm amazed that you can also experience painful discrimination and conclude that nobody should notice that.

Isn't a better response to say that discrimination sucks, and that we should work to end it everywhere?

As a guy in tech, I have it good. But I have never forgotten how, back in the day, being a nerd among normal people sucked. That is part of why I work to end sexism in tech.

ikkyu2• 13 years ago

We all have different goals and limited amount of time. I will speak up in the case of injustice if it arises but it's not my duty to fight sexism, end world hunger, fight for peace or adopt Nigerian children.

wpaladin• 13 years ago

I'm beginning to wonder if this is actually universal. I've lived and worked pretty much all my life in India, and something like what the OP describes would be pretty much unthinkable there.

Disclaimer: I grew up in urban and small-town India, in a lower middle-class and middle-class environment. I have no first-hand knowledge of how it is in rural scools. Also, anecdotal evidence, so feel free to take it all with heavy dpo

Math and the sciences in school: Every memory of school I have has girls and boys in equal measure doing well in math and science. The teachers's pets are all the kids who do well in class, the well-behaved ones who were focused on studying. In our early teens though, you could actually see the girls doing better than the boys in every subject. This pattern continued through college as well. Most guys handled this situation by relying on their female classmates for notes and help with schoolwork. I did the same.

College: My engineering class had something like a 40% female to 60% male ratio. This varied by specialization. The mechanical engineering department had a grand total of 3 female students and a 100 male students. (This was because Mechanical Engineering was perceived as something physically demanding, and the jobs involved factory floors in far-flung remote towns and villages.) The computer science department had somewhat more than a 50% female student ratio. On the whole, apart from the Mechanical Engineering department, every department was hovering around a equal distribution of females and males. Note that this was not deliberate on the part of the administration. Engineering school admissions in India are purely a function of score in State-level and National-level entrance exams. For that matter, the faculty was also a fairly even mix of male and female teachers.

From the OP's post : "At an old job, someone in authority pats me on the head to dismiss an argument I’m making about something at work." In an Indian setting, this would be near impossible because Indian culture is terribly touchy about men touching women in general. So the condescension would probably be expressed in some other manner, possibly verbal.

Plus, with close to half the employees being female, there's never really a sense of female co-workers as a minority in the workspace. And even in the few all-male teams I've been a part of, most of the men have spouses or sisters who work in tech. This means that no one thinks of male techies as the norm over female techies.

Conferences: Just like the workplaces, there's a good mix of men and women at these. And alcohol is hardly ever an issue because no one serves alcohol at these events in India, not even beer. It's a bit of a social taboo.

Another thing to note is that in India, engineering, and specifically, software, is something of an aspirational field. It's considered one of the most desirable careers, and everyone wants in.

nasloan• 13 years ago

I don't know Julie much, but I have met her at least once or twice and have seen her around the Pittsburgh software community events on several occasions. As an organizer of the Pittsburgh Python group I feel a sort of camaraderie with her and the other members of our little community. I can't truly understand her experiences as a woman in this industry, but I know she is hurting now, and I won't ever forget that.

These women are our people. They are tinkerers and geeks and perfectionists and builders and creators and geniuses and artists. They are who we are and who we aspire to be. There is plenty of imperfection to go around on both sides of the gender divide, but what we all have in common is a desire to be better... Better at our work or our craft, better at our fun. I think if we took just a little bit of that energy and aimed it at being better at relating to and respecting one another, we would all be better off.

We can make progress on this issue of sexism. We can start by practicing a bit more professionalism, even when we think no one is watching. We can make progress by thinking about others first when we think or act. We can make comments with real value, rather than shock value. We can acknowledge that there is no inherent connection between boldness and rightness. We don't need to start treating women differently... We are already doing that and it is only making things worse. We need to hold ourselves to a higher standard when dealing with everyone.

What if we all went to work today and encouraged every good idea, and were constructive toward every bad idea? What if we talked about software like it was software, not a swimsuit model? What if we stopped being so impressed with ourselves at every turn of off-color phrase, and started being impressed with the great things that the men and women we work with are doing to drive our products forward?

What if we spent just one week focusing on that. Maybe some of Julie's paper cuts would get a chance to heal. Maybe then we would learn what we can really accomplish together. Maybe we would never look back.

My experiences in tech: Death by 1000 paper cuts

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