Website Impounded

http://fitnesssf.com/

by ssclafani • 13 years ago

202 151 13 years ago

fitnesssf.com

mischanix3• 13 years ago

Archived the source for when this inevitably is reverted: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/4955465

The page embeds http://clients.frankjonen.com/fitnesssf in a frame.

feverishaaron• 13 years ago

Did you consult an attorney before doing this? I'm curious what the ramifications are. Back in my boutique days, we were stiffed several times, but I never wanted to pull a stunt like this for fear of legal retribution.

Instead, I hired some very good collectors, and had a stipulation in my contract that the customer was required to pay collection fees for invoices over 60 days late.

This resulted in my company getting paid in full all but twice.

mischanix3• 13 years ago

Ah, I'm not the one who did this; and as an American, I never would--easier to resolve it more traditionally. However, the client being American and the firm being European, I can see how this became the option of choice.

boksiora• 13 years ago

Good man i like it. If you let them go they will never learn

bitcartel• 13 years ago

What did the site look like before? Can't find anything in the Wayback Machine.

piyush_soni2• 13 years ago

Google's cached image for this website shows this: http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6597/fitnesssf.png

cody_bonney• 13 years ago

They posted some screenshots (along with some ranting) at http://talent.adweek.com/gallery/Fitness-SF-Website/7075381

robotjosh• 13 years ago

I wouldn't change anyone's website to say they haven't paid a bill. It won't let you collect any easier and you might get sued and lose.

At some point you have to say no more work until we get settled up to this point.

EToS2• 13 years ago

Agree entirely with this.. often i take 30% up front, 30% when prototyped, and final 40% payment upon delivery

PotatoEngineer• 13 years ago

Can you live on 60%? That is, how hard is it if a large customer decides to ignore that last payment?

raylu• 13 years ago

I suspect he has given up on collecting.

seyfarth• 13 years ago

This is unprofessional.

damm2• 13 years ago

I would suggest that what the original customer did was theft. They would still be reaping the profits of their thievery had not stopped it.

Legality is the hard part, which is likely why this company went the way it did. Most people would prefer a 'This site is down due to non-payment' or a 'we are down'.

That's trying to swim upstream without a paddle, this is slippery enough without trying to on the right side.

danielweber• 13 years ago

I have no pity for fitnesssf, but that doesn't mean that the creator's actions are okay. (I'm not sure they aren't okay, either.)

etchalon• 13 years ago

And yet so very, very awesome.

mxxx• 13 years ago

absolutely. i used to dream about doing something like this to asshat clients i had when i was starting out.

it's kind of like the designer equivalent of quitting your desk job by kicking your monitor onto the floor and walking out giving everyone the finger. XD

damm2• 13 years ago

Do remember, they are in a foreign country. Have you tried to sue someone outside of your country? It's not cheap nor easy.

prawn• 13 years ago

From the developer or the client? I have little sympathy for clients who are given countless opportunities to pay their bills and yet keep ignoring them.

jstalin6• 13 years ago

That web designer turned a contract issue into a potential tortious interference issue -- against him.

tptacek3• 13 years ago

Is the claim here really tortious interference? Or is it conversion? Or something else? Taking down a deadbeat client's website if they're entirely in breach of the contract that created it seems like it would be reasonable, but I agree that hosting a new website in its place to broadcast a grievance is probably a bad idea.

I had fairly complicated Python and C code I'm reviewing coming out of my ears so I did some research on this to clear my head. I couldn't find any solid answers. I'd be interested in hearing one from a lawyer, because this comes up on HN every now and then.

Back to code review for me. Wish me luck.

dfxm123• 13 years ago

In a perfect world, there would be clauses in the contract explaining what happens when there is a failure to pay.

Of course, we have no idea if there even is a contract.

jstalin6• 13 years ago

Conversion might work too. Of course, any suit would probably go after them using as many legal theories as possible. Tortious interference comes into play when you are purposely trying to interfere with someone else's business arrangements, either those already existing or those expected to occur. There's a difference between taking someone's site down for non-payment and putting up a statement saying that X Company doesn't pay its bills that X Company has bad morals. Corporate defamation would be another that I would add to the list.

Of course, then there's the practical reality of suing a company in Germany from SF.

tptacek3• 13 years ago

Is the idea here tortious interference w/o contract, with the designers interfering with business relationships between SF Fitness and their customers? That makes more sense.

beedogs• 13 years ago

Thankfully, he's in Europe, so there's really no way that'd affect him.

I think it's a brilliant move on his part; it'll likely cost the customer at least some business, and I love seeing deadbeats humiliated.

EToS2• 13 years ago

I can empathise with this a lot, but would not recommend going this far, if nothing other than for your own reputation and professionalism. Other clients could see this without fully understanding the situation, potentially losing business.

In previous cases ive been involved in, taking down the site sending in debt collectors is often the easiest and cleanest method of getting back your money.

aroberge• 13 years ago

Can this be done easily from a different country - as this is the case here?

mgkimsal6• 13 years ago

" if nothing other than for your own reputation and professionalism"...

And the professionalism of fitnesssf - of not paying their vendors - gets swept under the rug for dozens of other vendors to have to discover on their own, individually, in silence. Great.

"Professionalism" really has to work both ways. If you want me to treat you professionally, treat me professionally. What lines does someone have to cross before they lose that professionalism from you? Financial abuse? Emotional abuse? Verbal abuse? Physical abuse?

"Other clients could see this without fully understanding the situation, potentially losing business."

There's not that much to understand. What's easy to understand is that if you don't pay your bills with developer X, they will take public action against you. If you're the type of person who plans on skipping out on bills, you may avoid developer X. I think developer X would be thrilled to have potential 'business' like that self-select out of his customer base. I know I would be.

mediascreen• 13 years ago

While I can understand the frustration, I would argue that professionalism does not have to work both ways. If your client acts unprofessionally, you should still act professionally. Try conventional ways to reclame the what you are owed and if all else fails, take the site down - possibly with a small notice that says something like "Site offline until payment in full".

What OP did is illegal in many countries in Europe and from what I understand probably in Germany as well. It doesn't matter if the statements are true, it's still defamation. http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stg...

digitalengineer2• 13 years ago

I don't get it. A legally binding contract was signed before they took on the job, right? Doesn't that offer legal protection?

ceejayoz3• 13 years ago

Assuming you can afford a lawyer. In this case, the developer's apparently in Europe, making that even more difficult.

digitalengineer2• 13 years ago

Ah thank you. I live next to Germany (Holland) and know the German developers to be very stict, precise and 'grundlich' and to have an insurance against legal costs. Looks like the one thing they forgot was to stop working after they didn't get paid the first time. They trusted the client and got taken to the cleaners. I understand why they took the website / domain down. At least now everyone knows about it and it's the only thing left... Not professional no, but understandable.

mgkimsal6• 13 years ago

And 'legal' protection means waiting years in courts, then potentially years more to collect on that judgement (assuming you actually win). I don't know the story behind this, but they may have already waited months before taking this sort of action.

And as someone else said - really? An SF-based company contracted with someone in Germany to do their website? Seems to be they were doing this on purpose, to avoid paying. I had a similar situation with someone in NYC who didn't pay - found out later his company had a habit of doing this to small contractors out of state - you're telling me you can't find a web developer in NYC?

In my case, yes, I sued - drove to NYC and filed a suit. It's been 4.5 years, and I still don't have a court date.

chc2• 13 years ago

Does small claims court really take years? I haven't needed to directly interact with it before, but that was not my impression from acquaintances who have to go there quite often.

R_Edward• 13 years ago

A contract is kind of like a speed limit sign. It may specify behaviors that are in violation, but it has no power on its own to enforce itself. About all it's really good for is to describe for a third party--a judge--the agreement between the signatories at the time they executed the contract.

Even if one party to a legally binding contract sues another for failure to discharge his contractual responsibilities, and convinces a judge that a remedy is in order, there's still no guarantee that they'll ever see the responsibility discharged or the remedy paid.

In other words, getting a judgment in your favor is easy; getting a collection from the offender is a whole 'nother thing.

jessaustin2• 13 years ago

Yeah if you can't collect your invoice then collecting your judgment might also be a challenge. Unfortunately there is no real property involved to which a mechanic's lien could be attached. This is probably the best thing this guy could have done short of getting paid up front, or setting up some sort of escrow.

rickdale• 13 years ago

I am sorry, but this guy is way out of line here. Legally I have no idea, but morally, I do. I mean, go to the place and talk to someone. Or take down the site. Don't start a campaign for your feelings.

edit: On second thought I was eating a restaurant when their televisions turned black and the screen came up with a pay your bill now notice. Every screen in the restaurant. So I guess maybe this is the tactic.

piyush_soni2• 13 years ago

Why not? If after repeated attempts they're not paying them, they should do anything they legally can.

chris_wot2• 13 years ago

It's morally wrong not to pay your bills. If they are being shamed, tough luck. Pay the one you owe money to.

iamtyce• 13 years ago

I absolutely agree. I've been in this position as a frontend dev many, many times. And that's WITH a decent contract, no bad gut feeling, great communication throughout. Ultimately, I can't control whether a client feels like paying my invoice or not. I commend this developer, he's done something I've always wanted to do.

mgkimsal6• 13 years ago

At what point do you stop providing the service (or allowing the deadbeat client to continue to get the benefit of the previously provided service)? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year?

The TV signal issue - how many "you didn't pay" emails and phone calls and written bills did they get before it was turned off? And consider this - if the TV just went dead, people would be calling/complaining "my service is dead!" This is a faster way of telling them why it's dead. The fact that someone was broadcasting to their customers was their own fault if they got embarrassed by it. I would hazard to guess they were probably only licensed for one set, and they were splitting/copying the signal to multiple TVs as well.

mekoka• 13 years ago

Saying that he's out of line or amoral implies that you have an intimate understanding of the situation and that you've weighted that he doesn't have the moral grounds for doing this, which you might agree is disputable.

In my opinion, the only reason this tactic is not recommendable is that it's not deemed acceptable practice from a professional standpoint, and I believe that this is mostly a cultural thing. Everybody says it's wrong, so it must be wrong.

Think about it, if tomorrow all service providers developed a mindset where this kind of shaming in an attempt to collect from deadbeat clients became standard practice, nobody would be advising against it anymore. This is consistent with a lot of everyday nonsense that pass for acceptable, just because that's just the way things have always gone.

I'm not convinced that there aren't places in the world where this is seen as perfectly ok and maybe even expected.

rurounijones• 13 years ago

"go to the place and talk to someone"

Dev in Germany, Company in San Francisco.

fencepost2• 13 years ago

My suspicion is that this is being done because it's international. If Fitness SF is as I suspect in San Francisco while the developer is in Europe, collections will be a real headache. Sue? Sure, probably where you are, probably win. Then collect from the European presence of a California fitness club. I see a potential disconnect.

Sue in California? How much is THAT going to cost someone based in Europe?

And really, what recourse does Fitness SF have either? If they sue him, maybe they win. Maybe that makes it hard for him to come to the USA. Is that a problem for him? Can they legitimately go after him vs his company (and vice versa). It's a no-win situation all around.

I'd say that the big lesson to be learned from this is that international customers pay up-front and with a deposit if you're going to allow things that increase the price (e.g. rush changes). For most things there's not usually a good reason to add the expense and complication of 12-hour time differences and international borders unless you're planning up front to make legal recourse difficult.

fencepost2• 13 years ago

Editing on a phone is quirky, so further detail: the AdWeek profile lists him as being in Germany. Also, of all the cities in the USA, Fitness SF was unable to find a designer they liked in San Francisco? Please.

justincormack• 13 years ago

Design is a global market to a large extent, there is no reason why they should choose a local one.

minusthebrandon• 13 years ago

They probably couldn't find a designer in SF that charged LESS than the designer in Germany. A company that doesn't pay invoices tends to go for the cheapest option.

gnu82• 13 years ago

If only there was some sort of a company that could try to collect on unpaid bills in exchange for a fee...

evilduck• 13 years ago

You'd only receive a fraction of the amount owed by selling the debt to a collections agency.

pseingatl2• 13 years ago

They exist and are called "law firms."

lkrubner• 13 years ago

That is a very good point. I feel badly for the developer. Losing 6 months of work must be a shocking ordeal. I recently had a client not pay me for half of month of work, and that was a bit of shock to my finances. I do think the developer is right close the site till they are paid. For the most part, lawsuits don't work in these situations -- the expense of mounting the lawsuit, and the risk that it might drag on for months or years, means that is often better to simply move on focus on new things. But it is still a sad experience. I wrote about my own experiences here: http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/a-sad-time-at-kaching... For me, because I am in New York and they are in San Francisco, and the amount of money is fairly small, it doesn't make sense for me to waste any time pursuing it.

state• 13 years ago

This is unprofessional, this is going to be a nightmare for the developer and probably wont result in him getting paid. It's not the right thing to do.

I agree with most of the other comments here, but I'm still impressed. It's always fun to see someone really going for it.

ceejayoz3• 13 years ago

Anyone doing this has generally already resigned themselves to not getting paid for the job.

lowlevel• 13 years ago

Developers look up extortion in the dictionary ... We're new to it, though. If we had more experience...

zdw• 13 years ago

I don't see the problem with this. People deserve to be paid for the work they do, and time they expend, which is irreplaceable.

If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for. This is no different from that method, which is totally legal.

Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom software they write for companies, with an easy to install patch that gets released when that company pays it's bill.

If you're out to screw someone over and take their work without paying them, then being deprived of the utility of the unpaid work is the minimum amount of damage you should expect.

greaterweb6• 13 years ago

"If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for. This is no different from that method, which is totally legal."

There is a big difference, actually. There is pretty standard protocol and work agreements for automotive repair. This developer may have exposed himself to a level of risk based on his own contracts and work arrangement. Why was the site up in the first place if he was not paid in full?

"Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom software they write for companies, with an easy to install patch that gets released when that company pays it's bill."

Wow, this is just scary. The work relationship is doomed if the developer doesn't trust the customer or vice versa. If you are in the business of making money through software development, be skilled not only in developing but in assembling contracts and project plans that protect your interests.

ultramundane82• 13 years ago

So let's say that the customer always pays on time and the developer did build this sort of time bomb. (And let's assume no technical knowledge on the part of the customer. Therefore, the time bomb is never discovered.)

Are you saying that the relationship was negatively affected?

I would claim that the developer could mistrust the customer without elsewhere mistreating them.

mgkimsal6• 13 years ago

"There is pretty standard protocol and work agreements for automotive repair. "

We don't know the specifics of the agreement in question, but there's a general overarching 'protocol' in the services economy - I do work for you and you pay me. If you don't pay me, and your 'protocol' is to ignore my invoices... you reap what you sow.

duaneb2• 13 years ago

> This developer may have exposed himself to a level of risk based on his own contracts and work arrangement. Why was the site up in the first place if he was not paid in full?

I mean, I'm a small fish compared to this guy, but I always have the site up and running before hand. Most of the time, I just outright buy the domain and transfer domain rights. This is exactly the kind of thing I do when the contract is violated- that is, when I deliver on my end, and there is a functional site, but they didn't pay.

What I'm saying is, I think you're assuming too much about the nature of how this guy does business. Money isn't about trust, it's about contracts; trust is just what gets the contract signed.

Dylan16807• 13 years ago

>Wow, this is just scary.

It depends on how it's implemented. There's nothing wrong with the shareware model, surely?

jstalin6• 13 years ago

If you don't pay the mechanic, the mechanic doesn't get to put a sign out front saying "BOB DOESN'T PAY HIS BILLS. HE'S IMMORAL!"

carterparks• 13 years ago

If you don't pay the mechanic, you don't get your car. If you don't pay the webmaster, you don't get your website.

kibibu• 13 years ago

At the tiny webshop/webhost I used to work at, we would just switch to a plain white page with a header saying "please contact accounts@host". Embarrassing enough to push for payment, but visitors needn't necessarily assume foul play.

Enabling people to save face is important - I doubt these fitness guys are going to be particularly cooperative after being shamed.

drcube• 13 years ago

Actually, I see this quite often at shops all over. One posted the full name and amount of unpaid bills on their very large outdoor sign. Others post pictures of bounced checks. If the mechanic is the shop owner, he can do what he wants with his property.

And as far as I'm concerned, this applies to the web, too. If the web designer still owns the domain and server, go ahead and deface it to their hearts' content. If the client owns that stuff, however, the unpaid designer should just take back their work and let the client deal with the blank website.

tzs• 13 years ago

> If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for. This is no different from that method, which is totally legal.

The former is legal because it is specifically authorized by law. For example, here in Washington mechanic's liens are specifically authorized and regulated in the Revised Code of Washington chapter 60.04.

Unless website impounding is explicitly authorized and regulated in law, then you can't accurately say it is no different than a mechanic's lien.

tedunangst• 13 years ago

Who owns the website? If I asked somebody to do a little work and fix up my existing website, I wouldn't expect them to hold it hostage in a billing dispute. But if they built the whole thing, I don't think I'm entitled to any of it until I pay.

d23• 13 years ago

> Unless website impounding is explicitly authorized and regulated in law, then you can't accurately say it is no different than a mechanic's lien.

Morally I can.

DanBC2• 13 years ago

> Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom software they write for companies, with an easy to install patch that gets released when that company pays it's bill.

Not paying your bills is not legal, and the designer has a legal option.

Putting a timebomb in the software is also not legal, and probably a criminal offence in some places.

dzlobin• 13 years ago

Can you provide a source for your last point there?

DoubleCluster• 13 years ago

Providing a time-limited version for testing certainly is legal. Just make sure your client knows this and it's in the contract. Display a notice like "Note: this beta version of the software will not run after 1-4-2013".

logn2• 13 years ago

Taking someone to small claims court over state lines is exceedingly difficult, let alone in another country.

How is a "timebomb" not legal? I think Microsoft call its version of this "Genuine Advantage". And the shareware community calls this a Trial Period.

j_baker• 13 years ago

I don't see what you're saying. No one credible would say that people don't deserve to be paid for their work. However, there's a proper way to go about getting that payment. Defacing their website is not the answer. Without even getting into the legalities, do you really want to send the message "I'm a vindictive asshole" to potential clients?

ams6110• 13 years ago

Time spent on collecting is also irreplaceable. I do a bit of freelancing, and honestly if the amount due were anything less than a few thousand dollars I'd probably just write it off, or sell the invoice to a debt collector for whatever fraction they would pay. I can make more money working for other clients in the time I would spend on collecting a small debt.

For something more substantial, you need to protect yourself by getting some of the money up front or as defined project milestones are met. And final delivery/live site should be held until final payment is received.

jonathanjaeger• 13 years ago

Debt collecting isn't the same across countries though, so it could be tougher depending on where and whom you're operating with.

joshcrews2• 13 years ago

Freelancers and agencies: consider having all work prepaid. Your fears may say that clients won't go for it, but they are going for it with other agencies/consultants, and in other professions this is a mainstream way of doing business.

Government and huge corporate sales might not go for it, but you should be adding a 0 to the end of your price quotes to them as compensation.

dhimes5• 13 years ago

That wouldn't work for me as a client: I've dealt wit scummy freelancers, too.

You could consider going through an agency- one that offers the ability to (1) escrow money, (2) keep a written record of agreements, and (3) provide mediation. There are costs to this, but, at least until you trust each other, they may be the way to go.

joshcrews2• 13 years ago

I have everyone prepay me for Rails development. I think the reason it's not an issue is that they've worked with bad freelancers, and people that drop the ball, flake out, stop answering emails.

They don't want that so bad that they will prepay me because they believe I'm not going to do that to them, they really want me to do their project, and so prepayment is a non-issue.

Edit: I haven't asked for $30,000 in advance before; more like 20 hour blocks of time, or thirds of projects paid in advance

timjahn2• 13 years ago

We actually do all 3 of these things at matchist (http://matchist.com/talent). Not because we only deal with scummy clients or developers, but because it makes both sides feel comfortable and then they can simply concentrate on the project at hand, instead of worrying about somebody running off with the money.

greaterweb6• 13 years ago

I do empathize with this guys position but he is way out of line here. There is an implied risk in doing business, be it freelance or trough a traditional business.

Your first line of defense would be a solid contract and a fairly decent deposit. If you lead with a strong reputation clients will have no problem making the investment with you. If you lack the experience and reputation, maybe you shouldn't be getting involved in projects like this that leave you at risk.

Next would be proper project planning and _clear_ delivery milestones that have payments associated with them. It is not wise to put yourself in a situation where you lead with design and development and receive the bulk of payment when the project is complete. Without a clear project plan and deliverables scope creep can introduce itself and you can wind up eating the cost of additional work to satisfy the client. And even then you are still crossing your fingers the check will come before the next "quick update."

The problem I have with what the developer has done here is that he has abused his position to leverage a client's domain to support his view of the situation. We don't know the clients side and they are left without a voice here.

The developer may very well be the victim here but I've got to believe it was his business practices that made him vulnerable here.

johnpowell• 13 years ago

Well, the client did go through the trouble of deleting their facebook pages that the site linked to.

So they did have a voice but took a knife to their own larynx instead of telling their side of the story.

rdouble• 13 years ago

That's too bad, their SOMA location is the only good gym in the city.

rglover2• 13 years ago

Hand down my favorite phrase from our contract:

At the designated point in the project and after final payment has been received, we will present you with all files pertaining to your project.

thisisdallas• 13 years ago

Exactly.

I have something along the same line in my contract. I never give the client all the files or set up the site until I have been paid in full. I regularly send them updates, screenshots and allow them to test out sites on the dev server but I never give them a finished product without being paid in full. Before I start, there is a 50% retainer. After the design is completed the client pays 25% of the total. After the development is completed they owe the final 25% and once they pay their last invoice they get the final product. With this system, I have never had a problem. That's not to say it's perfect but I do believe it's a great way to handle payments.

nwh• 13 years ago

On a fairly regular basis I see print jobs being requested that have watermarks of the designer over it; clearly the client hasn't paid and is going to print with the low quality proof. It's weird that people believe it to be acceptable.

pasbesoin• 13 years ago

I did some work for a family member and their business partners, at a time when they were in great financial straights, and eventually got stiffed by them (the partners outweighed the family member -- no problem with the latter).

Get paid in a timely fashion!

If this is somehow "inconvenient" for the other party... they are already not valuing your contribution. Walk away.

Trust your intuition, too. If something "feels off", it probably is. I had that feeling early on, with those partners. I stayed in it for the sake of the family member (no regrets, from that perspective).

P.S. To clarify, they pulled through and ended up doing ok. At which time, they stiffed me. It was not a matter of their failure.

gdiaz• 13 years ago

Looks like they took all their fitnesssf facebook pages down. https://www.evernote.com/shard/s15/sh/d1096855-0c3a-4ed6-a87... lots of people telling them to pay their invoices. And the owner trying to do damage control by telling people their website got hacked.

greaterweb6• 13 years ago

This is an unfortunate side effect of what this developer has set in motion. I don't know enough about either side to make a determination of who is right or wrong, but neither do the people harassing this business on Facebook.

From his Behance page: "Half a year's worth of work, weeks of waiting on end because they couldn't find the fingers at the end of their arms and in the end they try to screw me over by ignoring the invoices. "

That a pretty aggressive play in words. I suspect if he is really looking for "justice" he'd gain a lot more support in exposing the entire situation, not just some pretty screen shots and shouting about unpaid invoices.

I for one am genuinely interested in learning more about this, both sides preferably.

homosaur3• 13 years ago

No, I don't think it was an unfortunate side effect, I think it's exactly what he wanted to happen. I know if I were a customer at that gym that I would never be back if someone was trying to screw with my industry. I'd also tell everyone I ever knew not to go there.

My guess is that this was not the method of first resort.

silentmars• 13 years ago

Fitnesssf took down their Facebook pages.

piqufoh• 13 years ago

Ouch - this seems like an overly emotional approach to an obviously worrying problem, and I do sympathise with the guy - I imagine if I were in the same position then this would make me feel good, for about 6 hours.

Then I'd realise that I was possibly being a dick and just a blank page with "Please contact accounts@host" as kibibu said would have done (and not pissed anyone off too bad).

yuhong2• 13 years ago

Also see http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/agency-replaces-clients-websit...

bradleyjoyce• 13 years ago

Checkout http://www.zencash.com to help avoid this issue.

wonderyak• 13 years ago

This is probably as good a time as any to rehash Mike Montiero's talk 'Fuck You, Pay Me' http://vimeo.com/22053820

I've been instructed to do things like this by past employers and I've never been comfortable with it. There are other avenues to persuing payment for services than defacing someone's property (assumption on my part, admittedly) and creating a firestorm of hatred to be imposed upon them in other mediums and venues.

To me, this is childish and an attempt at trying the easy way out of a situation.

Always have contracts, always get paid in installments. If you cannot get those things from clients, then you do not want them as clients.

homosaur3• 13 years ago

Oh yeah, it would be sooooo much better for a small business to spend possibly thousands and thousands of dollars on a judgement that will never get paid. But you are right about installments. I have a very specific set of language in my contracts regarding payment and deliverables. And if they stole my code which this guy claims, well, I'd probably pull something like this before bothering to spend thousands of dollars on a wasted legal battle.

eksith• 13 years ago

I like the background color.

pseingatl2• 13 years ago

This is a great idea. Those who write, "go to small claims court" don't know what they're talking about. In small claims you may win your case, but that does not mean you can collect your money. Collection efforts must then commence; working from another country makes collection impractical. More importantly, this matter points out that a web site is a valuable asset which can be levied or seized for failure to pay a debt generally. So if I buy a car, sue the dealer in small claims court and win, I can seize the dealer's web site and sell it (or hold it) as compensation. A world of possibilities.

chris_wot2• 13 years ago

I applaud them or this. This is exactly what happened to me, only worse. I worked day and night, at times driving for 4 hours to the ACT to get to client sites. For absolutely nothing. I didn't get paid. There was no point pursuing it in the courts, and frankly I don't want to live a bitter life.

But these people are scum. Good on them for showing them up.

dayyan• 13 years ago

I feel unless you are an expert in law, debating the legality of this pointless.

What I am interested in is what the site used to look like. Anyone got screenshots or a cache link?

Website Impounded

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