Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

https://www.mooreds.com/wordpress/archives/3518

by skogstokig • 1 month ago

194 91 1 month ago

slowcache• 1 month ago

This is great advice to become a pain in the ass that managers know they need to keep on a short leash.

There's a big difference between "I'm going to put this into prod on tuesday unless you tell me otherwise" vs "I'm going to put a prototype together for review on Tuesday unless you tell me this is a waste of time"

awesome_dude• 1 month ago

I'm going to cause an expensive outage that will ruin the company, and our careers unless you say no to sugar in the coffee!!!!

internet2000• 1 month ago

Well a prerequisite is knowing what you’re doing. If you don’t, then yeah, don’t use this approach.

tyre2• 1 month ago

Huge disagree, as a manager. It depends on the thing, of course. If you're rushing into a giant re-architecture by Tuesday, that's dumb. If you have some change you want to make, go for it.

My default is to trust engineers based on my experience with and expectations for them. If they want input—anything from a deep review to a gut check—I'm happy to help. If you're looking for a gut check, this is a fine way to do it. It communicates your level of confidence, which is an important data point for me.

If someone is adding a GH action, do we need a prototype? Maybe! But also maybe not. Bias towards action. Not YOLOing, not hacked together crap, not vibe code merged without review. But I've found that great engineers are often more hamstrung by permission checks than the issues they're meant to prevent.

furyofantares4• 1 month ago

This is great advice to become a pain in the ass that managers know they need to keep on a short leash.

Not really. The advice is prefixed with this context.

When you have something you want to do and that you feel is in scope for your position, but you want a bit of reassurance or to let the boss know what you are up to

Basically it's saying if it's your job to make this decision, but it's something where the boss needs to know (or you need them to know because you need a small amount of reassurance), then asking for "yes" fails to communicate your understanding in that regard.

Asking for "yes" says it's the boss's job to make this decision - but we're talking about decisions where you believe it's your job make it.

caminante6• 1 month ago

No. It's just CYA hedging.

If it's your job (per the "context"), then do it.

When you ask this question, it's either

A. escalating/DoA exception (not your authority)

B. Or giving yourself an out if something goes wrong for your existing DoA.

icantevenhold• 1 month ago

Completely inverse to my lived experience.

I have always used this method and my managers love me because they know I get important shit done without much supervision or needing dozens of planning meetings. It doesn’t even feel like there is any leash at all.

Of course the company i work at isn’t extremely disfunctional and a growing startup, so once we move into enterprise territory it might change the culture and it’s more about saving your ass and less about doing actual work.

brandon272• 1 month ago

Some people have a much better instinct for when and how to ask for permission than others, including when "asking for no" is the right move. It's a dance with nuance and it's hard to capture it as advice in an article.

dspillett• 1 month ago

This is great advice to become a pain in the ass that managers know they need to keep on a short leash.

If abused.

I've used this a few times for things that are in my remit, or very close to, that need doing or there will may well be more problems down the line for me or the local team more generally. If there isn't a particular problem with the intended action, I'm removing the need for someone else to make a proper positive decision. It is particularly useful when things are getting delayed by too many cooks trying to season the broth, or when it is going to require out-of-hours work and I want to push things towards a timeframe convenient for me.

Of course there are some large caveats:

* You need to be trusted, i.e. have a record of doing things both right and well, being appropriately careful with back-out plans and such, and if there have ever been mistakes on your part you need to have owned and rectified them quickly. It isn't going to fly if you are new or otherwise unknown, etc.

* You have to be complete but concise in the description of what you are doing, including what your “oh, fuck” roll-back plans are.

* You have to include everyone relevant in the announcement of your planned action, and send the notification at a time when they are likely to read it before you do the do. If there is someone key missing and others notice they will stop you, and if they don't notice and something goes wrong you have lost your trusted status for quite some time for being deceptive.

* Be prepared to be told no. Check just before the appointed time, and delay yourself a little and check again in case of a last minute “shit, no, don't do that” if someone spots a problem with the plan a little late.

* You need to trust the others around you to speak up if there is a problem, though getting negative decision can be a lot easier than getting a positive one so this isn't the most important part of this point. The most important part is you need to trust them to speak up and not enjoy watching you make a mess so they can hang you out later :)

Though having been taken over by a larger company this year, I don't think I'll ever do this again because the layers of bullshit are just too vast for it to be a safe tactic. Younger me might still have taken the chance, but I have a healthier level of not giving a shit these days - instead of “I'm doing X at time Y unless you say no” because “I really should do X at time Y otherwise problems A, B & C will arise” and if I don't get the go-ahead and problems do arise I'm the one enjoying schadenfreude⁰ and demanding overtime rates if they want me to work extra to deal with issues due to not doing the thing.

--------

[0] I know this is a slightly unhealthy attitude, and this is one of the reasons that I'm increasingly thinking that I need a significant career change¹.

[1] the main two reasons being not being happy working remote², it isn't good for my mental health, and not caring to engage with A-bleedin'-I, two massive things that increasingly mark me as not fitting in with the dev industry.

[2] I know I'm fairly unusual here and it seems to work better for many (most?) people, no need to take this as an insult to those of you gleefully working on remote teams or wanting to and jealous of those that can!

sublinear2• 1 month ago

I've never seen anyone just "put something into prod" unless it was for a very small org.

Putting managers on babysitting duty is a workplace smell. A reckless dev is the least of your worries.

SoftTalker• 1 month ago

I've never seen anyone just "put something into prod" unless it was for a very small org.

Missed the whole "move fast and break things" period?

jstimpfle• 1 month ago

This is one of the articles where I'm immediately grateful to the author to have written it down. Very good and easy to pick up point, actionable advice. I would just slightly modify it, don't create a time bomb. "I would like to... until date XY" should achieve the same effect -- not inviting bikeshedding or delaying action, sending "I got this" -- without pressurising anyone else for taking a decision or too much responsibility.

davidmurdoch2• 1 month ago

Another great Life Pro Tip is "Never accept 'no' from someone who can't say 'yes'."

metabagel• 1 month ago

Incapable of saying yes or not authorized to approve?

davidmurdoch2• 1 month ago

I don't think "incapable of saying yes" is a thing.

roughly• 1 month ago

Learned this one dealing with bureaucracy at uni - and don’t leave someone’s office until you know where you’re going next. “I can’t do that” - no problem, who can, and where can I find them?

ChrisArchitect• 1 month ago

Some previous discussion:

2025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43144611

gwd• 1 month ago

I've heard this called "lazy consensus". Basically, rather than say, "Is it OK if I do X?" Say, "I'm going to do X on date Y unless someone objects." Particularly useful as the number of stakeholders grows.

EGreg• 1 month ago

Does this also work when asking someone out? Or raising capital?

Answer: no, because you need the other person to actually do something.

These kinds of things work when you’re already in a relationship.

badlibrarian• 1 month ago

If it didn't work sometimes (in other cases), we wouldn't call them sociopaths.

notatoad• 1 month ago

i think the reason this works is an implication that the article doesn't explicitly cover:

if you tell somebody you're going to to do something, you're not asking them to take responsibility. you're telling them that you're taking responsibility for whatever you're going to do. If you ask somebody's permission, you're asking them to take some portion of responsibility for what you're doing.

which is the same risk that the sibling comment is warning about - if you're trying to do this for things that you aren't ultimately responsible for, you're goign to piss people off. only take responsibility for things that are actually within your area of responsibility.

tyre2• 1 month ago

huh, that's an interesting perspective. I've never thought of it that way. This framing could explain some of the bullshit I went through with a politicking manager and a less experienced leader.

Personally, I tend to assume accountability for things I lead, but as a manager, of course, I am also responsible and accountable for my team; including both things I signed off on and things I didn't (because I entrusted that independence to them.) It's an interesting line to walk.

torben-friis• 1 month ago

Absolutely!

This is a point that tends to kill introverted/insecure people I think. They assume that asking for permission is making things easier for people, but there's a limit where you're not allowing others to delegate responsibility onto you. Your job is for others to not have to think about the things you take care of.

SwtCyber4• 1 month ago

There's a difference between keeping someone informed and making them reown the problem

port11• 1 month ago

You’re conflating introversion with agreeableness and neuroticism or even social shyness. Introversion is its own aspect.

Chyzwar• 1 month ago

You can only take responsibility if you also have ownership. Large organizations very quickly become like communist state, nobody own anything and any individual action is suspicious.

rho138• 1 month ago

*failed communist state

In proper function, ownership is an essential identity of any government.

6P58r3MXJSLi3• 1 month ago

Large organizations very quickly become like communist state

here we are again: someone attributing to communism what capitalism is factually based on.

https://i.redd.it/46norpbeuut51.jpg

nobody own anything and any individual action is suspicious.

do you own anything at your job?

again: that's capitalism

SwtCyber4• 1 month ago

The "ask for no" approach works best where the boundaries of ownership are clear. Without that, it becomes much riskier

epolanski2• 1 month ago

Another reason is that you're making a choice for them.

We think we like more choices, but it's generally proven that having less makes it easier to decide.

One path is: "fuck sake, I need to review all of this and make an informed decision". The other is: "If I have time I'll check it otherwise who cares".

There's another benefit in the change of tone: you're preserving their authority, while at the same time making things easier.

SwtCyber4• 1 month ago

The phrasing is not just a communication trick, it changes who owns the decision

dools• 1 month ago

This was in my staff documentation and it’s now in my AGENTS.md: tell don’t ask.

If there is a decision that you need to make don’t ask me for input, do the thing that you think makes sense and then write down what you did and why.

If it’s the wrong thing I’ll update the docs to make it clear for next time.

Without this I would always wake up in the morning to an inbox full of questions and no work done, rather than an inbox full of finished tasks and maybe a couple of corrections.

With LLMs if I ask for a code analysis and plan to fix something they tend to put a list of questions at the end about which they want confirmation.

Then I have to waste time saying yes or no or coming up with the solution. If I tell them to instead just make assumptions and record them all at the end then I only need to correct 1 or 2 assumptions if required.

ChrisMarshallNY2• 1 month ago

This is something that I've always believed. It's not new advice.

It's different from "Ask forgiveness; not permission," because it still loops in the manager.

The only problem, is that if you ask Legal, they say "no," pretty much by default.

latexr• 1 month ago

It's not new advice.

It will be new to someone.

https://xkcd.com/1053/

But even amongst those for whom it isn’t, sometimes a reminder of things you know is useful and may come at just the right time.

ChrisMarshallNY2• 1 month ago

Good point. I didn't mean to be dismissive.

Stratoscope• 1 month ago

Hello $BOSS!

I have a code change that is so vital to the survival of our company that:

1. It requires your immediate review.

2. If you fail to respond by Monday, I will push it to production.

---

Can anyone suggest what is wrong here?

chrisra• 1 month ago

In general, the harder it is to undo and the broader the consequence, the more you need to check.

Simulacra• 1 month ago

This would work only in a high trust, structured environment. I know at my job if we said this it would be met with a likely scolding not to assume anything and to ask for a YES.

neilv• 1 month ago

It works with teams, when you have the authority to do something, but do a non-blocking check as a courtesy:

"Heads-up: I plan to delete the old scratch volume at Tue 14:00 ET, unless anyone objects before then. (It only contains the old Debian APT cache, and 974 copies of the same YouTube video.)"

crazygringo• 1 month ago

Do NOT do this with your manager. The key part of this article is:

When you have something you want to do and that you feel is in scope for your position, but you want a bit of reassurance or to let the boss know what you are up to, it’s common to reach out and ask them for permission. Don’t. Don’t ask for a yes. Instead, offer a chance to say no, but with a deadline.

If something is not in scope for your responsibility, obviously you must ask for permission.

If something is in scope for your responsibility, then just do the thing.

If it's in some weird edge case where you "feel" it is "in scope for your position" but you "want a bit of reassurance", then pick a lane. Either do the thing or ask for permission. Probably default to asking for permission unless a knowledgeable colleague tells you it's your call.

But setting some kind of deadline for your manager to opt-out is extremely disrespectful. If I ever had a report try to pull a stunt like that, it would be the first thing we'd talk about in our next 1-1.

Because if you have a manager who usually responds promptly, then you can ask for permission and get a quick reply. "Asking for no" is not making it more convenient for your manager, it comes across as trying to usurp their authority. "Hey, I'm going to tell HR you gave approval for a raise unless I hear from you by noon." That's... just not how anything works.

And if you have a manager who often misses e-mails or takes forever to respond, then it comes across as trying to take advantage of that to do stuff they wouldn't approve, in a sneaky way.

This is a bad look in every possible situation. Do not do this.

Like, if you're a journalist telling a source you'll print the story unless you get a correction by a deadline, OK fine. If you're looping in a peer as a courtesy (NOT a manager), then OK. But with your manager? That's crazy.

kstrauser2• 1 month ago

I think missing from these conversations is the work environments involved. At a large company, a lot of what you said is true. At a startup, almost everything is in scope for everyone. I mean, someone has to do the thing. Part of the ask-telling is broadly communicating "I'm doing this unless someone else has already started on it or strongly wishes to do it themselves."

And if you have a manager who often misses e-mails or takes forever to respond, then it comes across as trying to take advantage of that to do stuff they wouldn't approve, in a sneaky way.

I strongly disagree with that. Such a person is not a good manager. Their job is to be on top of things and keep their reports unblocked. If their reports are stuck waiting on them, or they claim ignorance of things they've been told about but neglected, they're not doing their job and have to be routed around.

j-bos• 1 month ago

"Hey, I'm going to tell HR you gave approval for a raise unless I hear from you by noon." That's... just not how anything works.

I haven't seen a strawman this big since the county corn maize.

corpoposter• 1 month ago

If something is not in scope for your responsibility, obviously you must ask for permission.

Agree, but this can often be blurry.

If it's in some weird edge case where you "feel" it is "in scope for your position" but you "want a bit of reassurance", then pick a lane.

I disagree here. I think there are often cases where this really functions as an "FYI" and is helpful. You are not shifting responsibility to the other party, but do...

* CYA if they say they weren't informed

* Get an opportunity for feedback without stalling progress in the case that they don't respond

jdlshore• 1 month ago

This is a very strident response, presented with a lot of confidence, and I think that confidence is unwarranted.

I haven’t read the article, so maybe it’s been covered, but here’s a simple way I usually “ask for no.” I send a message on Slack:

“Hey (name), I’m planning to (do a thing) on Wednesday. Let me know if you have concerns.”

It doesn’t come across as usurping authority, or sneaky, or any of the other very italicized things you’re worried about. It comes across as polite and confident.

I’m a VP and this is how I expect my managers to interact with me on major decisions that are within their purview (I don’t need to hear about minor decisions) and it’s also the culture I’m trying to create at the team contributor level as well. Ownership and autonomy, within well-defined guardrails.

See also Turn the Ship Around and its “I intend to” structure.

smugglerFlynn2• 1 month ago

The culture you are creating is actually the opposite: no ownership, and no autonomy

You are delegating decisions that are in your responsibility to another person (=no ownership), and you are not able to progress unless someone else [even if silently] green lights your approach (=no autonomy).

Another similar management anti-pattern is “please copy me on all your communications” [for a chance to override your decisions]. This one feels more obviously off for many people, but works exactly the same way.

This is a valid team collaboration approach, but a major smell if people run their decision making like this with higher-ups. People often mix up these two.

SwtCyber4• 1 month ago

I think this depends a lot on how the message is phrased and what kind of action we're talking about

reader9274• 1 month ago

This is what advertising companies do to use your data unless you explicitly request to opt out. Hasn't worked out well

tuatoru• 1 month ago

Far canal, why is this news?

unstatusthequo• 1 month ago

Covered in Chris Voss book Never Split the Difference. Works well in practice based on my own personal experiences.

WaitWaitWha• 1 month ago

This is an AWS (and other FAANG) tenet.

It has to come with appropriate information, not just a date.

I usually ask for a twisted "STAR" if this is presented to me.

Give me context (who, what, where, when), the planned action in short (and other choices that were considered and why they were abandoned), and the result that the choice will have.

If i have all these, i can quickly context switch, and ask follow ups if needed, or just let it move forward. This is conceptually what AWS asks for in a one pager.

mooreds• 1 month ago

It has to come with appropriate information, not just a date.

That's a great point. You need to give the manager enough info they can determine if it makes sense to intervene. Sometimes they have enough context that a date for a decision is all they need, other times you need to provide more details.

nirui• 1 month ago

    > "hey, boss, can we install action X?"
    > "Hey, boss, I am going to install action X."

They are literally the same thing to me.

The tone change don't really effect my decision path, both triggers "reviewing of the XYZ problem", a.k.a "why?". People who don't do that either trusts you a lot, or never worked professionally before and maybe about to learn a lesson from it.

Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

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