B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121126/18084721154/barnes-noble-decides-that-purchased-ebooks-are-only-yours-until-your-credit-card-expires.shtml

by chanux • 14 years ago

288 131 14 years ago

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pilif4• 14 years ago

As far as I understood the article, this is about a second download of a book purchased some time ago. I think in this case, it's not as clear-cut as the article makes it out to be.

To stay with the real world analogy: while the article is right that nothing will glue the pages of a physical book together once the credit card expires, it is also the case that purchasing a book once doesn't entitle you to go to the bookstore and demand another copy of the book because you lost your initial one.

I can see a technical reason which prevents the redownload by locked accounts. Or rather, I can imagine the additional work such a feature could require - work that obviously isn't going to be paid for by anybody (or rather paid for by customers who do have valid accounts and buy more media) - the card of the affected account is expired after all.

IMHO, if we want to demand that an electronic media purchase is a traditional sale, then we can't rurn around and demand that it also isn't and that we should have right to infinitely ask for additional copies - however cheap it might be to create them.

sami362• 14 years ago

> ...then we can't rurn around and demand that it also isn't and that we should have right to infinitely ask for additional copies - however cheap it might be to create them.

oh Yes, We can. The reason we're entitled to it is the fact that DRM stands in the way of us customers backing up our purchases. If my eBook were in a format devoid of DRM & I could back it up by saving it in Droppbox or my external hard drive, then your argument would carry some weight.

pilif4• 14 years ago

To stay with the real world analogy: you also can't back up your book. You have that one copy and once it breaks, you are out of luck and have to buy a new one.

I compare the ebook readers as a physical object with the books (also physical objects). If I can read books on that device even when my credit card has expired or other things have disabled my account, then IMHO the parity to the real world exists: I have that one physical object which represents the content on it. If I lose it and don't have my account any more, well, too bad.

Of course, by centralizing many books to one physical object, you risk losing much more content as you lose that physical object. But the advantage is that, in case it breaks, it can be repaired (which might be impossible with a physical book)

Now. I know for a fact that this is how Kindle works: even if your account is gone, your books stay on your Kindle and you can continue to read them. I would assume it works the same for B&N in this case.

Being able to infinitely redownload the books is a nice convenience that goes far beyond what a physical book would allow.

Also, I haven't tried it, but these DRMed books are just files after all. It might be possible to back them up and later read them on the same device (again the physical book analogy) even if the account has been terminated.

daeken• 14 years ago

You can put the DRMed files on Dropbox and then copy them to your Nook. This isn't a DRM issue, just dumb business practices.

CrossCircuit• 14 years ago

I think your point here is valid - if backup options are restricted via DRM, then the company does have at the least a moral obligation to provide re-downloads. Companies like Barnes and Noble that probably have very thin margins would do well to enact business practices that gain them long-term customers.

pyre• 14 years ago

  >  if we want to demand that an electronic media
  > purchase is a traditional sale

Were these ebooks really treated as traditional sales? While we might want to get to a place where they are, if they are currently not treated as such, then why shouldn't we get the supposed benefits of the current model? If part of the agreement terms of the purchase are that you can download from B&N indefinitely once you purchase the ebook, then they should honor that, regardless of the state of your credit card.

bigiain• 14 years ago

At the same time, a physical bookstore doesn't force me into storing my copy of their book in one specific bookcase by making it impossible to move my books from my loungeroom bookcase to my bedroom bookcase.

If you're going to put DRM hurdles in my way to make it difficult to move a book I "bought" from you between my phone, my tablet, my ereader, and my laptop; then yeah - I'll get outraged at you when you refuse to allow me to redownload it. I never asked for "infinite additional copies", B&N are forcing that requirement on people who need to move DRMed files between devices.

Profess2• 14 years ago

With out even the ability of backing up the files on the device how can we really agree with this point of view? If I buy a pulp book and my bookshelf breaks I can still pick up my books off the floor. If my e-reader for what ever reason stops working and I have to replace it then should the manufacturer have to claim responsibility for my losses?

belorn3• 14 years ago

If the e-book is being sold in the same way and marketed as a physical book but on a digital media, always accessible, they yes, we can indeed demand the right to have access to it.

If however, in the very unlikely scenario, they market those books as temporarily rented products, and clearly informed the consumer of this fact (to the point of informed decision, by legal definition), then the customer can only expect what was informed at the time of purchase.

By the sound of the article, this is not the case however. If the company had been located in the EU, they would be in violation of a number of consumer protection laws.

mikevm3• 14 years ago

Why do people always go back to analogies to physical objects/scenarios when discussing digital content?

Obviously going back to a physical bookstore and demanding to get another copy of a book you lost is not something that anyone would do, but why is this so far fetched for an eBook? At least as long as that eBook is on sale (and on their servers), I don't see the ability of re-download being a major technical hurdle -- nor are B&N actually losing a copy of the book (as a physical bookseller would).

tripzilch• 14 years ago

> Why do people always go back to analogies to physical objects/scenarios when discussing digital content?

Because it's hilarious, just look at them! See it's exactly like when you try to fit many clowns into a tiny car, and you know you could fit in just one more, if only you could remove the steering wheel to make room. Except it's got a steering wheel lock. Now in a traditional car, one of the clowns would hand you the key, but with DRM, that clown is a robot and it's stuck behind all the other ones, just out of your reach.

See how that works? Now it's your turn. For instance you could try arguing my analogy is flawed because in the EU, most cars are even tinier.

nathan_long• 14 years ago

Excellent point.

I really like the idea getting of an e-reader, but if I do, I will ONLY buy DRM-free content. I will do this with the understanding that I'm responsible for backing up my books.

If I did understand the book to be licensed and DRMed, I would demand that my "rental" be labeled as such as come with a guaranteed period of availability via re-download.

sami362• 14 years ago

I don't think it's DRM related or a publisher requirement. I think it's of B&N own initiative to keep your credit card on file in order to facilitate potentially future purchases. Either way, it's misguided & customer hostile. as long as this policy is in effect, I'll never buy an ebook from them again.

wildranter2• 14 years ago

I have another word for similar policies, sleazy.

R_Edward2• 14 years ago

Occam would probably disagree with you. Absent evidence of malevolent intent, I'd chalk this up to a mediocre designer who didn't ask enough questions of himself or his subject matter experts.

javajosh4• 14 years ago

The simple fact is that the ebook experience sucks all the way around. I gave it a shot with the Nook Touch, and I really dislike it, even if DRM wasn't an issue.

Over the years my subconcious has grown used to indexing the story according to certain physical properties of the book. "Oh yes, that happend about a cm in on the right side page, like halfway down" is something I might think- but this coordinate system doesn't work with an e-reader. Seeing the cover art each time counts, too. I also rather like (and miss) the small stains, tears and incidental damage that normal books get. There's also the matter of distraction - now that my book is a device I can't help but fiddle with it. Finally, even though the quality is very good on my Nook Touch, I can see the pixels and I find it distracting.

Maybe some or all of these concerns will go away in time, but then there's also the (rather stunning) fact that ebooks are MORE expensive than the paperback - this, even though the cost of production is negligible, and typically you can't share or bequeath your e-library, etc.

And then on top of all these objections B&N does something asinine like this...let's just say that I'll be perfectly happy reading paper books for a long long time.

batiudrami2• 14 years ago

Your experience is with ereaders is nearly the complete opposite of mine (putting DRM aside, like you).

I love that I don't have to remember my page or use a bookmark, I love that I can change the font size, I love that I can select a word and get an instant definition for it, and I love how light it is to carry around and much more comfortable to read with. I prefer them over real books in every way (though, I'm from Australia where a hardback is $50 and a paperback is around $20-$25, so ebooks are cheaper for me).

javajosh4• 14 years ago

>I love that I don't have to remember my page or use a bookmark

Is keeping your place really a problem for you? I've never found it to be. Those rare times I lose my place serve as a quick and easy review. And, actually I tend to use whatever is handy as a bookmark, which also adds to the charm of any particular book, now that I think about it.

You are absolutely right about the weight!

tolos• 14 years ago

Don't forget the ease of one-handed reading, and the ability to lay the e-reader down, e.g. to type out a passage. Neither of those are convenient at all with the books I read, unless I want to horribly mangle my book. Unlike GP, I prefer to keep my books pristine.

evoxed• 14 years ago

Totally agree with the visual indexing thing. I only just started reading a few technical ebooks since I didn't want to be lugging them all over the place– I never would've guessed how annoying the experience would be. For now I've gone entirely to PDFs because I can still index almost just as well, but more importantly I don't have to wear out the day just to print out the chapter and stick it in a binder.

karolist• 14 years ago

I agree on your point about visual indexing. There's one more reason I prefer paper books - when I read a book, I take something from it, be it technical knowledge, be it "self help" type of advise. When this book is sitting there near my work desk, in a bookshelf, a small glance at it triggers back those memories and values gained, therefore I find it easier to apply the knowledge from the book, when it's constantly reminding me of it's existence. With ebooks, it would just end up somewhere hidden deep into the folder structure or in an index of some app (iBooks for example) and the memories of it slowly fade.

aneth42• 14 years ago

You might try an e-ink device. That will solve your problems of fiddling and pixelation. I find them far more comfortable to read as well.

Regarding your memory system, this is a matter of changing habits.

As for the nostalgia, I could tell you I miss my CRT and the clack of a first generation remote, or the times when video content was limited so everyone watched the same thing, of when folks could design with their hands and wrote letters. Times change.

I too love physical books, but I won't buy them these days because the convenience of ebooks is just too great.

javajosh4• 14 years ago

>You might try an e-ink device.

The Nook Touch is an e-ink device. The pixelation thing is the lowest on the list.

Two more things: the feeling of a scam, and ebooks are editable. It seems far-fetched, but the possibility exists that a malefactor can literally edit every copy of a book from a central location. This possibility does not exist with physical books.

E-books feel like a scam, and I admit it's not entirely rational - although I will say that paying $10 for bits vs. $7 for paper just doesn't seem rational, and it's a change that only seems to benefit a small few. E.g. if e-books offered authors a bigger cut, then I'd be more supportive of them. If the royalty was 50% of $10 vs. 10% of $7 I'd say that reason alone made ebooks a better choice for readers wanting to support authors. But as ever, the system seems to benefit the few with customer reach, rather than the few with some actual talent. And that is a failure of our society as much as it is a failure of the market.

mikevm3• 14 years ago

For me, visual indexing is only important for text books or technical books. For any other materials (novels?), that's unimportant.

So for technical stuff I prefer to read a PDF version of the eBook (that is the precise copy of the actual book), and for novels I don't mind using an EPUB format, where the layout is not exact.

vertis• 14 years ago

I would blame this on a badly designed system rather than deliberate attempt at DRM.

i.e. Product owner goes to dev: We want to make sure that customers always have a valid credit card on file so that when they go to purchase it doesn't distract them (etc, etc).

Dev makes it so that you can't do anything with the website until you've updated your expired credit card.

aneth42• 14 years ago

I agree and it created a shitty situation. But I have to believe B&N did not intentionally institute this policy and will quickly change it.

RexRollman• 14 years ago

Having worked at B&N, I believe this is the case, as a credit card is required to be on file even when paying for ebooks with a gift card.

yk2• 14 years ago

The problem with ebooks (as with software and other files) is, that they are simpy not physical goods. From the viewpoint of a consumer, a nice advantage of files is the essentially zero costs of replacement, so that I can resonably expect a vendor to replace a copy lost due to an accident. (Unlike with a physical book, where replacement costs actual money.) On the other hand, I have the means of production for an ebook. ( A computer, production of files means copying, just as producing a car means copying a prototype.) This means, I can actually compete with the vendor of an ebook, by pirating it. ( A car does not need DRM, because I would need a factory before I can start to pirate it.)

So I believe, that analogies like "glue the pages of a book shut" and "selling" are misleading. The much more interesting question is, what is a reasonable default licence for digital goods? Or to pose the question slightly differently, what can each side of a default licence agreement reasonable expect of each other?

pseingatl2• 14 years ago

Are you suggesting that digital goods cannot be sold and can only be licensed? What is your basis for this? It seems to me that this was a sale of goods. The fact that the goods are in digital format is irrelevant. It is unlikely that the courts will treat the sale of a book the same as a software license. Ultimately sales of goods are governed by law, and one party is not permitted to breach their contracts.

yk2• 14 years ago

This depends on the exact meaning of sale. It is certainly possible to implement a license agreement, that looks very much like a sale of a physical object. However I think that such a license agreement would be unenforceable, essentially because a physical good has a certain uniqueness. It makes sense to talk about 'my car' which is distinct from 'your car.' ( And if someone steals 'my car', I am able to identify this specific car.) By contrast, I can not really talk about 'my mp3 file' because there is simply no difference between my file and any of its copies. This applies also to watermarked files, since given a copy of a watermarked file you can not determine if this specific representation of the file was created by the original licensee or from an intermediate copy.

So the important point of me buying a book, is that a unique physical object becomes mine, by contrast there is no such thing as a unique digital object. [ IANAL, it is entirely possible, that there is some case law which defines a sale of software. But my point is, that this would be kind of a default license.]

which had a huge influence on my thinking about digital goods. (Or economics in general.)

pfortuny• 14 years ago

OK, BUT bear in mind that UNTIL such a complicated new kind of relationship between two persons is set up, whenever some interaction looks like a purchase-sale agreement, IT IS SO. Even more if you read "BUY" this ebook everywhere.

spohlenz• 14 years ago

This issue has nothing to do with DRM, and is simply the result of a system that requires an account to be in good standing (i.e. has a valid credit card) before any downloads can be made.

Obviously this is an issue that should be fixed, but there isn't even any evidence that any attempts were made to contact B&N - just someone encountering an error message in B&N's software.

I'm as against DRM as anyone else here but this is a non-story.

talmand• 14 years ago

I was thinking this too. By the way the article reads it has nothing to do with the DRM on the ebook itself. How can the DRM on the ebook be the problem if one cannot download the ebook in the first place?

This is a customer service issue, not a DRM issue.

venomsnake• 14 years ago

I think that Louis CK really nailed down the way to distribute digital content. Few streams per key + a drm free download, that is up to you how to back up with no obligations after that for him.

dansingerman2• 14 years ago

Having had to get my hands dirty in the murky world of Adobe DRM, I am pretty sure this is actually an implementation problem with how Barnes & Noble have implemented it.

As crazy as it may seem, I believe in the B&N case the DRM licence is based on the credit card details.

Hence no more credit card, no more licence.

One day I may do a longer post how horrifyingly awful Adobe DRM is technically, (never mind the ethics), but knowing what I know, this is not any sort of surprise.

thinkling2• 14 years ago

I don't doubt that Adobe DRM may be awfl, but when the customer isn't allowed to download the book, how does the DRM implementation enter into it? The DRM (as embedded in the ebook files) isn't in play here.

dansingerman2• 14 years ago

The default Adobe DRM implementation requires that you need an Adobe ID (i.e. an account with Adobe) to access the book. (DRM licences are against Adobe accounts)

The bigger players who use Adobe DRM (Like B&N) of course don't want this, so there are alternative schemes where you can use a token to represent the user that is not the Adobe ID.

In the B&N case, I believe that token is based on the credit card details.

You also only download the actual encrypted epub after the DRM licence has been applied. (The initial download is a small XML file which your Adobe RMSDK app uses to decide if you have access to the ebook)

ergo, no valid credit card, no valid account to unlock DRM, and get access to the actual content file.

hullo2• 14 years ago

All this theoretical user needs to do is update their credit card details in their account. Any credit card will do, whether it's the original with a new date or a different one.

Samuel3407• 14 years ago

I discoveried some nice article to help you resolve this problem:

Remove drm from adobe: http://www.epubsoft.com/how-to-remove-drm-from-adobe.html

How to share nook books: http://www.epubsoft.com/how-to-share-nook-books-with-my-frie...

pseingatl2• 14 years ago

There isn't a ''real world'' analogy. This is a sale of goods and as such is governed (in the USA) by Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code. All sales, whether the goods are digital or not, carry an implied warranty of merchantability. This means that the product sold can be used under normal circumstances. Here, the buyer received nothing for his money. Do not be distracted by the digital world of downloads, DRM and software licenses, the UCC nevertheless applies. B&N has stores all over the country and is subject to small claims courts and perhaps even class actions. After a few lawsuits they will wake up and stop this practice.

lucian303• 14 years ago

First suicide: 1gb of space on the Nook Tablet for user data. Second suicide: This

B&N, RIP

justindocanto• 14 years ago

This website has not shown up properly for me once in the last 10 minutes... No style sheet, missing end of html or times out each time... Incase anybody from the site reads this.

epo• 14 years ago

This has nothing to do with DRM, it is a crappily designed customer authentication system. If B&N had any sense they would offer customers the ability to redownload their purchases at any time after say, 120 days, for an additional 25c.

hullo2• 14 years ago

People can redownload their purchases at any time for 0 cents, whether it's 120 days or 3 years later. They just need to have a current credit card on file. Question the wisdom of that if you will, but there's absolutely no recharging people or disabling of access.

kabdib• 14 years ago

It's really simple: I buy ebooks, then break the DRM so that I can make a backup. If it wasn't possible to break the DRM, I wouldn't buy them.

Non-DRM'd books are better, of course.

I want my descendents to be able to read my e-books just as easily as they can read my physical books. So my conversions include collapsing rich text to plain text, which I am reasonably sure will survive format changes over the next 100 years.

mikevm3• 14 years ago

Spot on. The whole DRM situation is ridiculous. I would never buy an eBook if I couldn't strip away the DRM. Same goes for music. Who in his/her right mind would buy content that he/she doesn't really own?

epochwolf2• 14 years ago

Exactly. I currently buy books on my kindle and use Calibre with plugins to strip the DRM on import. Before I had a kindle, I would use iTunes to purchase books and use Requiem to strip DRM from them.

I don't go to the extreme of converting to plain text. Epub is a zipped collection of html. There should be tools to extract data from those for a very long time into the future.

JimmaDaRustla• 14 years ago

I got the solution: cloud media! You must stream your product from a central server as you use it, and the server can ensure that you aren't reading more than one book at a time, nor are you reading the same book in multiple locations.

I guess we are good ways away from that...

lnanek2• 14 years ago

Honestly, amazon has been pulling bullshit like this on me as well. I'm always flashing new ROMs and swapping phones for my job, many books on the amazon Kindle app simply refuse to download any more saying I've exceeded the license. ;/ They really need to put in the description that the book will be useless to me...

turtlebits• 14 years ago

Go into manage your Kindle and deregister your non-existent device accounts.

Problem solved.

monochromatic2• 14 years ago

> strip the drm off of the ones you purchase so you can you the book you BUY on all your devices

This attitude right here is part of the misunderstanding, and part of the problem. You haven't BOUGHT the ebook. You've paid for a license, and in all likelihood, that license prevents stripping the DRM.

pjriot2• 14 years ago

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fatal-fruitcake-mary-kay-and...

Funny, the button clearly says "Buy now". Not "License now" or anything else. If retailers want to make that distinction clear thats fair enough, otherwise I'm perfectly happy with the attitude you refer to.

B-Con• 14 years ago

"Buy now" makes sense because you would be buying a license.

Although I do agree that the distinction between a product with DRM and a license to use a product with DRM does not seem well distinguished. Exactly what you are obtaining should be spelled out, at least in some form of legalese somewhere that you see when you buy the product, not just in some document buried on the website you're browsing.

monochromatic2• 14 years ago

That's kind of my point. The fact that retailers don't make this clear is a problem. Regardless though, all you're buying is a license. What could it even mean "buy an ebook?"

sasfasfasffas• 14 years ago

Nook was the second major entry as a consumer e-reader but lost because they didn't think about user experience. You went into the store to download and buy ebooks? Convenience anyone? No? What about the lower secondary color screen before the color came out. Why? Then it was a rootable android device, not so bad, but they just didn't focus on what was important. Their online book store sucked compared to Amazon. They just couldn't compete. Also had a mortar business tying them down, but that isn't much of an excuse because Amazon had a ton of other stuff on their plate. Seriously, from what I hear from someone that interviewed- they had no clue what they were doing on the online side and wanted to reinvent it but didn't know how. It has been a huge fail.

I like their mortar stores but I haven't shopped there is ages, so I imagine that others are the same. They need to drop the nook or at least completely reimagine it and rebrand it (nooks are for english muffins), start up a second online team completely physically separate from the current one hiring top talent for UX and focus on a non-backlit color e-ink screen for whatever the rebranded ereader is called. The mortar stores aren't cheap to run either, and most stores are way too huge for the amount they sell. That needs to change also.

Basically, they need serious, serious help. It is a shame that B&N used to be the epitome of a bookstore, but now it is seriously flailing against a company that sells more other stuff than it does books. But who knows, maybe taxes will kill the Amazon giant.

B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

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