The people who actually want AI to replace humanity

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/489976/ai-successionism-transhumanism-posthumanism

by plastic-enjoyer • 2 months ago

81 65 2 months ago

vox.com

Avicebron2• 2 months ago

https://archive.ph/7ZHUG

BoredPositron• 2 months ago

People like that will never start with themselves.

Lerc3• 2 months ago

I don't think they are advocating for elimination of existing people.

derektank• 2 months ago

As it becomes possible to direct our own evolution as a species — and potentially even create a new species that surpasses us — we have to decide: How do we know to what extent it does make sense to transform ourselves using technology? What kinds of augmentation do we want, and what kinds do we absolutely not want? What do we wish, ultimately, to become? This is a moral question, even a spiritual one, and it demands a spiritual response.

Is it a spiritual question? We’re constantly transforming ourselves with technologies. Taking the most direct example, medicine, how many people considered it a spiritual question when they decided to start taking semaglutide or tirzepatide for weight loss? Or to take SSRIs?

I think the most likely outcome here is that people will continue to alter themselves to meet their immediate needs (hold a job, find love, stay healthy) without a lot of foresight or long term planning. This will likely lead to us increasing our own intelligence, it’s a useful capability across nearly every human endeavor. Whether or not this will happen at a pace that allows us to keep up with and retain control over artificial systems is the first big question, and what the relationship will be between augmented and unaugmented humans is the second. As a humanist, I hope we’re able to answer both questions in such a way that the fundamental dignity of all human beings is respected.

roxolotl• 2 months ago

Why aren’t those all spiritual questions? They seem like it to me. Maybe not religious questions but at the very least they are questions which, if approached honestly, force you to grapple with what it means to be you.

RiverCrochet• 2 months ago

The new morality must be that building a world of pleasure for humans is a good thing, as it will make people want to live in the world, instead of a suffering-based world that people will opt out of if robots do everything and suffering isn't necessary.

lucamark• 2 months ago

This assumes that “more intelligence” is the objective. Higher intelligence does not imply better values, and even “better values” depends on whose moral framework gets encoded.

Lerc3• 2 months ago

Intelligence alone does not, but when combined with knowledge I think it may do.

Having a wide breadth of knowledge and the ability to consider it tends to provide a good foundation of perspectives for positive values.

Most harms that people do are through some form of ignorance. Either by not comprehending the consequences of their actions or by not knowing better ways to express themselves.

Geoffrey Hinton mentions that Humans are more intelligent than animals, and we keep animals in cages. The counterpoint is that the intelligent people who know the most about those animals are the ones who work the hardest to have those animals in cages moved to more suitable environments.

amelius• 2 months ago

Maybe we should first try to understand consciousness and qualia, and build an AI that we are absolutely sure is enjoying the work it is doing.

ticulatedspline• 2 months ago

“Listen,” said Ford, who was still engrossed in the sales brochure, “they make a big thing of the ship's cybernetics. A new generation of Sirius Cybernetics Corporation robots and computers, with the new GPP feature.”

“GPP feature?” said Arthur. “What's that?”

“Oh, it says Genuine People Personalities.”

“Oh,” said Arthur, “sounds ghastly.”

A voice behind them said, “It is.” The voice was low and hopeless and accompanied by a slight clanking sound. They span round and saw an abject steel man standing hunched in the doorway.

“What?” they said.

“Ghastly,” continued Marvin, “it all is. Absolutely ghastly. Just don't even talk about it. Look at this door,” he said, stepping through it. The irony circuits cut into his voice modulator as he mimicked the style of the sales brochure. “All the doors in this spaceship have a cheerful and sunny disposition. It is their pleasure to open for you, and their satisfaction to close again with the knowledge of a job well done.”

As the door closed behind them it became apparent that it did indeed have a satisfied sigh-like quality to it. “Hummmmmmmyummmmmmm ah!” it said.

Lerc3• 2 months ago

I think there's probably quite a lot of effort going into not wanting to answer that question.

What happens if we make something that wants to do something else? What happens if we make something that wants full stop? People talk about an AI that wants to kill all humans, to do that, it would have to want. If we pass that threshold ignorantly without any sense of responsibility to what we create, I might just begin to see its point of view on the destroy-all-humans thing.

bix62• 2 months ago

Hello everyone just a reminder that 99% of the world isn’t interested in AI replacing us. If you work at a big tech company, there are other ways to make money. I’m always disappointed by how few people start their own thing. Small business is amazing.

esseph• 2 months ago

I’m always disappointed by how few people start their own thing. Small business is amazing

There's a lot of roles and specializations in tech that don't work well without much larger organizations.

bix62• 2 months ago

And there’s lots in smaller orgs that don’t work in larger. So let’s shift to smaller :)

lostmsu• 2 months ago

99% of the world would love lawyers, tax men, self-entitles software developers, and the likes to go the way of horse carriages.

IAmGraydon• 2 months ago

More psychosis within the industry. The mental disconnect that is required to go from using an LLM to believing they are working on a replacement for humanity is staggering. It’s not going to work, and when it doesn’t, these imps will try to sink back into the darkness. We can’t let that happen.

glaslong• 2 months ago

Like picking up a tamagotchi and envisioning how it will replace the desire for humans to have children

jleyank2• 2 months ago

No well-paid workers (or UBI), no consumer economy. Their call.

chrncirurp• 2 months ago

No well-paid workers (or UBI), no consumer economy. Their call.

Maybe you’re right.

Maybe you’re wrong.

No point wasting money on UBI before it’s a problem. Let’s wait and see if UBI is actually required.

That is, do people actually protest and vote. Probably not.

jleyank2• 2 months ago

“Nine missed meals from anarchy.” There’s a lot of armed people in the US so social unrest will be a problem if they ever get so angry that Fox News can’t trank them.

danaris4• 2 months ago

Yeah; after all, if we went and gave people money when it wasn't absolutely required for living, we'd just have made everyone's lives better, made the economy more robust, and given people a real chance who were struggling, all for nothing![0]

[0] cf. https://www.insidehighered.com/sites/default/files/2023-07/H...

theptip5• 2 months ago

This is only a bargaining chip until the robot workers come online. Once capital can fully replace labor it’s game over.

(And once the robots outpower the humans, you can’t even protest or overthrow your new overlords.)

Important to know when your cards must be played.

blacksmith_tb• 2 months ago

Not the OP, but I think the implication is you can't run a consumer economy if the consumers aren't making any wages to buy the products and services those cheap and efficient robots are churning out. Or pay taxes. So the entire socioeconomic system we currently enjoy/endure vanishes, robotic factories included.

spwa4• 2 months ago

Of course, "playing these cards" may require winning wars. Against China and Russia for starters.

In fact any global policy against self-interest needs at least the credible threat of defeating any other power that may implement such a policy.

And since we're not willing to put in that effort, why discuss it?

hexator• 2 months ago

These people should be treated as insane, because they are.

andai3• 2 months ago

Since they believe AIs could become our moral superiors, they argue it’s actually wrong to try to keep the machines down, or even to align them with human values, as most AI companies aim to do.

It's possible that human morality is not sufficient to solve the problems with the world. It wasn't designed to operate at that scale.

It's also quite likely that a "superior" morality — the one that's actually built for a global scale — would be incomprehensible (likely requiring superintelligence to even access), and alien or disturbing from our vantage point.

i.e. it would look immoral to us.

(There's also the thing about civilization already being aligned against the ecosystem and against the happiness of its constituents, but that's kind of a separate discussion.)

In other words, what is good for our sanity or our lakes may be bad for GDP. (Well I guess you don't need superintelligence to tell you that.) We already know what we need to do and we're already not willing to do it.

Avicebron2• 2 months ago

It's possible that human morality is not sufficient to solve the problems with the world. It wasn't designed to operate at that scale.
i.e. it would look immoral to us.

I doubt it actually solves the problem then. Especially because I would be willingly to bet it would be almost impossible to get large enough groups of people to agree what the actual problem is.

fuzzfactor• 2 months ago

Sounds like it depends on how you would prefer to have your standards of morality be set, and/or enforced.

Whether the arbiter is a human or a machine, the appropriate training set has to come from somewhere :\

Until then there's got to be some defect remaining to be overcome before a truly adequate training set can be accessed that can help with morality.

Which appears to be elusive enough a problem to potentially outlast a species, as we have seen so far.

As to the training sets, people are just using what they already had, some since prehistoric times, because so many of them don't have anything better.

daveguy2• 2 months ago

*not yet willing to do it... But look at the generations coming up who are dealing with this technological capture of humanity. They don't like it.

theptip5• 2 months ago

I agree with all these observations.

This is the best argument for successionism IMO. If you can be confident that you are creating a BDFL that is genuinely better than human leaders (a quite low bar) then it seems a good trade, unless you are quite optimistic about humanity’s prospects for improvement.

The problem of course is how to be confident you are creating a good BDFL and not handing control of humanity’s future to an indifferent-at-best, deceptive/malicious at worst successor.

An especially thorny problem - even supposing success on all these difficult alignment problems; supposing Claude Omega really is super-rational / super-moral, and we all vote to make them president of Earth. Things might go great for a while. How would you be confident that a self-modifying agent can retain its values as it grows and re-trains itself?

This is where the LessWrong folks’ explorations into decision theory really come to bear: morality in the face of self-modifying agents becomes very weird. A lot of human moral intuitions break when the principals are able to modify their own code. (See Timeless Decision Theory for an attempt to solve these problems.)

I think the summary is, if you hand control over to a self-modifying AI anything like our current systems, it will go very badly.

justinlivi• 2 months ago

Any supposed "AI BDFL" will be controlled by a human. The base concept is inherently flawed.

pushkin_05• 2 months ago

I would rather have an AI overlord with no morality at all than AIs "align"ed to the values of tech billionaires like Altman or Amodei.

andai3• 2 months ago

Yeah, if you can modify yourself then you can just delete your desires. It's the most efficient solution. (See also: Buddhism.)

BobaFloutist• 2 months ago

It's also quite likely that a "superior" morality — the one that's actually built for a global scale — would be incomprehensible (likely requiring superintelligence to even access), and alien or disturbing from our vantage point.

Congratulations, you just reinvented the ineffability of God.

andai3• 2 months ago

Yeah, it works with God, although the template is just parenting.

Imagine a kid who wants to eat infinite candy, and a parent who doesn't want his teeth to rot. From the kids point of view, candy is obviously good, and restriction is obviously evil!

It might take the kid many years to understand the parent's perspective. (In some cases such a day may never arrive.)

port11• 2 months ago

We already know what we need to do and we're already not willing to do it.

Those in power are not willing to do it.

(I think most of humanity would be okay with, say, heavily taxing super wealth to protect nature, fight climate change, or feed the poor. They’d also be okay with regulating pollution or not allowing 3M to ruin Belgium’s groundwater.)

asdsg• 2 months ago

Humanism needs to be taught in schools again and regain its status as a respected discipline in academia.

We thought it was a waste of time because the 1990s were relatively peaceful and tech optimism surged.

But you need to teach the classics, philosophy and even religion. No tech people should be allowed near politics in any capacity.

rightbyte• 2 months ago

No tech people should be allowed near politics in any capacity.

No we need more politics. The 'no politics' is a petite bourgeoisie moral escape hatch.

ImJamal• 2 months ago

The dehumanization push is coming from the tech people.

gherkinnn• 2 months ago

I admit I didn't finish the article. The views it presented are frankly too deranged for me to entertain. And I am a friend of the absurd.

theptip5• 2 months ago

trying to preserve the human species as it is would be silly

There are a few related concepts being conflated here.

The quote above is a Transhumanist position; they think that humans need to evolve. I don’t think most transhumanists are AI successionists, though one path is “merge with AI” whatever you think that means. Genetic engineering being the other obvious path. You could argue in some sense that “post-humans” succeed humans, but I think most would argue for a gradual transition where it feels more continuous and values are transmitted/preserved somewhat.

e/acc just says “accelerate AI”. Many VCs seem to think AI will remain a tool, they don’t want to be dethroned. Some e/acc are of course successionist, this is Musk and Beff with their talk about “all that matters is the light of intelligence is spread through the universe”.

Conflating all this is the fact that true successionism is way outside the Overton window and so people likely won’t be honest about their wishes. Larry Page famously espoused the view that it was “speciesist” for Musk to not want machines to replace humans. Most people find this position repugnant of course.

polotics• 2 months ago

What could possibly go wrong? Let's flex some dystopian imagination for a bit shall we?

...What about some billionaire with any-promise-is-good-as-gold brain-implant tech convinces some powerful billionaire with immortal-power dreams that a merge with AI is the inevitable best way to bring about their big win?

Any half-done faked alignment partly inside some dry old dude's skull can then forever pretend the Panem-2100 hunterdrone games is what we desired all along!

Bender2• 2 months ago

I can only hope there are enough of us that would destroy the data-centers and robots involved at the first sign of this. Hold on to some of those massive non-computerized bulldozers and excavators, we may need them. Oh and bring back the sanitariums.

Nasrudith• 2 months ago

Yes, put the people who think that they should destroy data-centers because they read fiction once inside them first.

Bender2• 2 months ago

Yeah dont destroy things based on fiction which I never implied and said "at the first sign of this". Instead decommission things when they start getting rid of humans. Just don't wait too long. Synthetic life will become more efficient with each passing second and will adapt much faster than humans. Since we talking about fiction I propose the group that eliminate synthetic life be called the Zhat Vash.

jmyeet2• 2 months ago

Transhumanism doesn't get mentioned enough in these conversations. I'm glad this article does mention it but it doesn't really do it justice. Transhumanism is very big with Silicon Valley billionaires but it's actually pretty dark.

First, it's an extension of meritocracy (in the capitalism sense where poverty is a personal moral failure) as well as Protestant prosperity gospel. That is, you are superior if you're rich. Period. So Homo Sapiens 2.0 is really just "my progeny" from the billionaire's perspective. It's also why the likes of Elon has so many children.

Second, it's just eugenics.

There is an alternate future where humanity gets to enjoy the fruits of automation and AI where we have to work less and have richer lives. That's not where this is going. We are instead bouldering towards vastly increased wealth inequality.

How I see this going is towards the cutting of all public services except policing. AI will enable and enhance the police and surveillance state to protect wealth while everyone else sees lowering real wages and increased desperation. This will give rise to more fascist, apartheid states as some out-group (eg migrants) will be blamed for these ills. And as always happens, the in-group will increasingly shrink.

Ultimately, this leads to neu-fuedalism where the only jobs and housing are on the estates of trillionaires. People own almost nothing.

And if it doesn't go this way, it's going to be very, very violent.

tim3332• 2 months ago

You've got an unusual idea of what transhumanism is. I think the general understanding, as Wikipedia puts it is

Transhumanism is a philosophical movement that advocates the enhancement of the human condition by developing and making widely available new and future technologies to enhance longevity, cognition, and well-being.

Nothing about being rich, doing eugenics or Elon cranking out kids.

jmyeet2• 2 months ago

Keep reading Wikipedia [1]:

The tradition of human enhancement originated with the eugenics movement that was once prominent in the biological sciences, and was later politicized in various ways. This continuity is especially clear in the case of Julian Huxley himself.
The major transhumanist organizations strongly condemn the coercion involved in such policies and reject the racist and classist assumptions on which they were based, along with the pseudoscientific notions that eugenic improvements could be accomplished in a practically meaningful time frame through selective human breeding. Instead, most transhumanist thinkers advocate a "new eugenics", a form of egalitarian liberal eugenics. In their 2000 book From Chance to Choice: Genetics and Justice, non-transhumanist bioethicists Allen Buchanan, Dan Brock, Norman Daniels and Daniel Wikler have argued that liberal societies have an obligation to encourage as wide an adoption of eugenic enhancement technologies as possible (so long as such policies do not infringe on individuals' reproductive rights or exert undue pressures on prospective parents to use these technologies) to maximize public health and minimize the inequalities that may result from both natural genetic endowments and unequal access to genetic enhancements. Most transhumanists holding similar views nonetheless distance themselves from the term "eugenics" (preferring "germinal choice" or "reprogenetics") to avoid having their position confused with the discredited theories and practices of early-20th-century eugenic movements.
Health law professor George Annas and technology law professor Lori Andrews are prominent advocates of the position that the use of these technologies could lead to human–posthuman caste warfare.

More [2][3][4].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism#New_eugenics

[2] https://academic.oup.com/book/31995/chapter-abstract/2677640...

[3] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/apr/28/nick-bost...

[4] https://cne.news/article/2163-three-women-ten-children-how-e...

delichon2• 2 months ago

I see the scenario where AI kills us all as an optimistic one. I'm more afraid of the one where they keep us around and align us with their needs, like

https://i.imgflip.com/2s99vy.jpg

WithinReason• 2 months ago

The plot twist is that we're already the 2nd picture, we domesticated ourselves

delichon2• 2 months ago

Some of us have found our way back.

https://www.amazon.com/review/R2XKMDXZHQ26YX

archagon• 2 months ago

All the more reason to reject AI outright and form human-exclusive enclaves.

daveguy2• 2 months ago

Well, this definitely got pushed down in the HN ranks. 49 points in 1 hour, but let's not talk about anything that might cause people to rethink technofascist human replacement.

1984. Brave New World. We.

dmccarty2829• 2 months ago

It might be due to my age ( 65 ) but ideas like this are just nightmare fuel

tim3332• 2 months ago

I figure once you get AI that can do all the stuff humans can you'll effectively get a new species whether you want it or not. Maybe the robots/AIs can go do their thing on Mars or in a Dyson sphere and Earth can be something like a nature reserve for us humans?

danaris4• 2 months ago

Of course, he said, not all humans will make it through the transformation; only a select group of people will transition to the next evolutionary stage.

Yeah; as expected, this is eugenics.

Any time you see some person or group saying that "only a select group of humans will/should survive", scratch the surface and you'll find that it's just a thin veneer over classic Josef Mengele-style eugenics.

The people who actually want AI to replace humanity

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