Show HN: UrbanDesk - Combination Full Size Bed and Desk

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grahamphakos/urbandesk-combination-full-size-bed-and-full-size

by gphakos • 14 years ago

171 76 14 years ago

michaelt• 14 years ago

Looks neat! I wonder how hard it is to lift, and whether my laptop cables and things would end up jamming in all the moving parts.

gphakos7• 14 years ago

It is pretty easy to lift, I am not a strong guy (bench press < 100lb) and I don't have any trouble putting it up or down. The lifting action is assisted by gas springs which you can kind of see in the video but I didn't really mention them.

There is plenty of room for running cables off the back of the desk, I currently have a half dozen cords for charging phone, laptop, etc... and I haven't had any problems.

wilfra• 14 years ago

Looks really cool. If these were done and you were offering them for $650 I'd buy one, but donating to a kickstarter and maybe getting one next May doesn't sound like fun...

You can take down my email (in my profile) and feel free to hit me up in the future if and when they actually get built and are ready to ship.

Good luck!

bryanlarsen• 14 years ago

Since it's already elevating, how hard would be to make it adjustable height up to a standing position?

ssebro2• 14 years ago

It looks cool, but the marketing doesn't address the fact that most people have laptops and desktop monitors on their desks. Nobody will want to take their desktop+laptop off the desk everytime they go into their bed - 7 inches of height (collapsed) isn't going to cut it.

TYPE_FASTER• 14 years ago

Good point. How cool would it be if the desk included a folding monitor stand that could fold a flatscreen flat onto the desk origami-style?

LinaLauneBaer• 14 years ago

Can't you just put the monitor face down on the desk surface in most cases? Another alternative would be to mount the monitor on the duckboard or on the wall with a long flexible arm... THe latter option would provide a big screen TV to watch movies while lying on the bed... :)

ssebro2• 14 years ago

Can you imagine doing that every single day of your life(putting the monitor face down on the desk surface, then bringing it back up)? This is engineering - I think we can come up with something better (like your monitor mount idea).

gphakos7• 14 years ago

You're right taking the monitor off the desk every day is not fun, my desktop case does fit in the storage area underneath the desk so I do not have to move that everyday.

I have been working on a monitor mount that will work in conjunction with the UrbanDesk but it is not yet finished and I have been anxious to launch. Check back soon, as I hope to post a video of the finished mount within the next week or two.

warfangle2• 14 years ago

If your monitor has a VESA mount, you could mount it to the bottom of the bed, perhaps?

gphakos7• 14 years ago

This is definitely a possible solution, but I found this put the monitor too far away for my liking. I am working on a folding mount for the monitor which I hope to finish in the next week or two.

kiba• 14 years ago

Interesting, but it looks like it won't support anything that is higher than the bed, such as a big monitor.

chaselee• 14 years ago

I sleep on the floor and stand at my desk =(

samirahmed• 14 years ago

I would like to a mattress on that bed frame, how does the mattress not fall over all the time

gphakos7• 14 years ago

There is a board in the back that supports the mattress when the bed is raised up, and it is held down to frame / slats with some nylon cord which is under the sheet so it is not really visible.

jawns2• 14 years ago

A question that has come up more and more lately with similar Kickstarter projects:

Is crowd funding a good way to go about this project? And specifically, is crowd funding through Kickstarter a good way to go about this project?

Basically, the project creator has an idea for a product for which he thinks there is a market, but he lacks the capital to get the business off the ground.

By using Kickstarter, he's able to acquire the capital, and the backers -- the vast majority of whom, I'm assuming, are either friends who just want to help him out or strangers who just want a bed-desk -- know that they'll get their money back if the goal isn't reached.

But once the goal is reached ... that investment becomes a risky investment. The obligation to actually deliver a product to those investors to whom it was promised is, at best, a moral obligation, rather than a legal one. Kickstarter has been very insistent on this point lately: If you donate to a project, consider it a donation, not a purchase (http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-store).

With more artistic projects -- say, a musician raising money to record an album -- I think it's a little bit easier to see those pledges as donations rather than purchases, even if a copy of the album is promised to donors. Why? For one, donors are likely to already be fans of the artist and feel a sort of kinship with them. But probably more importantly, the final cost of the album is likely to be in the $10-$20 range, which is a lot easier to write off, if the artist doesn't deliver, than an expensive piece of furniture.

In contrast, with a project like this, I'm assuming that if you're going to "donate" $650 or more, you're going to want a bed-desk at the end of it.

And at least on Kickstarter's current terms, the arrangement is not favorable to somebody who just wants a bed-desk at the end of it.

There may be other crowd-funding options out there that are more favorable to the would-be owners of a bed-desk (for instance, if the project creator were contractually obligated to deliver the product). Or perhaps the project creator could simply raise $65,000 with micro-loans, then sell the completed product to interested buyers, then use the proceeds to pay back the micro-loans. At least in that case, it's the aspiring businessman who's on the hook if something goes wrong, not the aspiring bed owners -- which is as it should be, because when an aspiring businessman is willing to take on financial risks, that demonstrates his commitment to the business. Or, if the project creator is not willing to take on all of that financial risk, perhaps he might be willing to offer equity in the business to potential crowd funders. That way, you're distributing the risk, but you're also distributing the potential upside, which is only fair, right?

As things stand, I just don't see a Kickstarter project for this type of product as being a good deal for anyone but the guy building the bed-desks ... unless you are willing to consider the $650 (or more) you donate to be just that: a donation.

pawelwentpawel• 14 years ago

Apart from selling it to individual customers, that would be a good idea to employ on a bigger scale in cheap university halls. There are some big companies renting rooms for students (for example "unite" in UK) that are constructing new accommodation points all the time. A desk like that might add a lot of value to some of the smaller rooms.

mryan• 14 years ago

Excellent point!

An alternative to Kickstarter would be to approach these companies directly, with a demonstrable prototype, and secure a letter of intent to purchase. Armed with these letters, it might then be possible to get a business loan to fund the initial production run.

gphakos7• 14 years ago

Yes $650 is a large amount to be donating to a project like mine, and I agree that it is not the way to go for everyone or every project. I thought that I would try it out for this project to see what the response would be like, and it seemed like the best way to build both financial support and interest for the project so I went for it.

I know producing these will be a big job and I liked that Kickstarter allows me to set my funding goal at a level where I will be most likely to succeed. I could have certainly set up a pre-order page with a Stripe button and started building as the orders came in, but being woefully underfunded is not a great way to start an enterprise like this in my opinion. And I thought that Kickstarter would be the lowest risk option for everyone involved.

diN0bot• 14 years ago

if you have successful kickstarts in the past, you become more reliable for the future. one could make a couple smaller projects to prove oneself, slowly getting bigger and earning more support than would otherwise be possible.

that said, i'm not sure how more support helps one make more deskbeds. the more deskbeds to make the more deskbeds to make. unless one is manufacturing, constructing and distributing components automatically.

samstave• 14 years ago

I sent your kickstarter to some furniture people I know seeing if they could give you further advice on how to make this a reality.

I think you should use the kickstarter monies to help you get better connected with furniture manufacturers who would license the design from you and help you make this a reality.

There is so much potential for such a design - and even though it is not 100% novel - it looks like it could be affordably developed easily and could be sold in dorms and rooms around the world.

netcan2• 14 years ago

I disagree

It isn't buying an item & it isn't donating to something either. Backing a kickstarter project a different sort of thing to both of these. While there may be some issues with expectations & delivery, there are obviously people that want to back kickstarter projects as is.

My personal feeling is that it lets them have a relationship with the makers of the stuff. Something that is natural to us, based on favours, "moral obligations", expectations, social expectations - something like friendship. Separating "investing" & buying in the way that most of the economy works would miss that whole point. They could just work for & shop at Ikea. It would probably be a better deal. The don't want to because this is.. warmer.

jawns2• 14 years ago

Warmer until the bed-desk doesn't come through and they're out $650 :)

shortlived• 14 years ago

I expected to see something regarding design/production issues under the _Risks_and_challenges_ section, not worries distraction and miscommunication. I assume that a wooden prototype may have different properties than one made of steel.

michaelbuckbee• 14 years ago

This design looks remarkably like Resource Furniture's bed+desk combo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d...

rabidsnail3• 14 years ago

"Request a quote"!?

dsr_• 14 years ago

Means it's more than three times what you were thinking would be affordable. Also, they don't want your business. They want a design consultant's businesss, so the price can be a small part of a huge contract.

gphakos7• 14 years ago

I did not find that in my search for a solution to this problem before I attempted to build the UrbanDesk. It looks a bit out of my price range...

periferral• 14 years ago

exactly my thought when I saw this at a cheaper price point. However, the resource furniture one is a lot more finished product (flat back with sides covered). I've even seen ones with shelves to hold more things. I think $660 price point is more appealing but it lacks the visual appeal. If it were more finished (not an eyesore as a desk), I'd definitely consider paying up to $1000 for a queen.

pbreit2• 14 years ago

Yep, Italian-made and super cool. They are certainly expensive but very well made. Not only durable but counter-balanced such that a just a light touch is needed to pull down the bed.

http://www.resourcefurniture.com/space-savers/queen-space-sa...

FootballMuse3• 14 years ago

How much (or free/open source?) for simply the instructions? Maybe I'd like a different size, material, standing option, or other modification.

gphakos7• 14 years ago

How much would you be willing to pay for the instructions?

FootballMuse3• 14 years ago

Not much, since I can deduce most of the design from the video. Hopefully you can offer some additional advice, pitfalls, and potential variations to those people that you learn throughout the process, because it would be almost entirely a donation at that price point.

I imagine the more people see this, the more people will simply attempt this themselves and post their version on make/instructables/hackaday. Others who want to simply purchase one outright, can certainly get one from you. However, waiting until May to potentially get one will not jive with many people.

Not to demean your work/project, I just think you are going to have to offer some polish and niceties that iterative building this product multiple times allows rather than offering what someone could duplicate with a trip to Home Depot and a Saturday to be successful.

Regardless, good luck.

evoxed• 14 years ago

You should set a pricepoint, $25-75 that includes instructions, bill of materials, as well as a CAD file (I know it's a pretty simple mechanism, but some will appreciate it).

51Cards• 14 years ago

Another company had these for sale at our local home show 3 weeks ago, functionality and movement is identical.

rabidsnail3• 14 years ago

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S59872897/

randomchars• 14 years ago

Lots of people don't like sleeping high above the ground.

antihero• 14 years ago

Great if you never get laid...

warfangle2• 14 years ago

I'd like to see a medium pricepoint of, say, $50 or $75 that would include schematics for the bed (so you can build one for yourself if you desire).

camiller• 14 years ago

...and maybe a $150'ish for plans and hardware kit. Seems like the harder part of this would be the mechanical hardware. Shipping something the size of a bed assembled from 2x4s is going to be expensive, sourcing the lumber locally should make it pretty easy.

mw63214• 14 years ago

One thing I could foresee happening with the increased use of furniture/concepts like this (the UrbanDesk, as well as some of the other products from other companies) is that a user may get disoriented from using the same space for multiple purposes. I like having a room for different functions. A room for sleeping has a different feel than a room for working. A room for eating breakfast has a different feel than a room for eating dinner with family. A room for relaxing and watching TV casually, has a different feel than a room for entertaining guests. You get the picture. This helps create mental and emotional "spaces", but also leads to a lot of wasted space. With more people wanting to move back to the cities, I imagine this distinction between mental and emotional "spaces" will become more blurred. Does anyone know of any good products or services that would compliment these products? I'm thinking along the lines of programmable/wireless ambient lighting.

alexchamberlain• 14 years ago

That's a lot of rooms! I have bedroom, a bathroom and a lounge/kitchen.

rabidsnail3• 14 years ago

http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?SearchText=murphy+bed...

ryanpers• 14 years ago

so much room for activities!

wtvanhest• 14 years ago

A nice touch would be a flat screen mount on the bottom of the bed that is at the correct height.

codequickly• 14 years ago

For small room, there's always the Ikea's Tromso loft bed and desk is only $220 (http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S59872897/). It' is not as elegant as the kickstarter bed but it is cheap and easy to assemble. The downside of ikea bed/desk is that when you invite your date/GF over for the first time, it is definitely not going to make any positive impression.

taskstrike• 14 years ago

Or...it will invoke memories of college years for her and brings a aura of youthful vitality to you.

anthonyb2• 14 years ago

Hammocks are also pretty comfortable. Screw a couple of hooks into the ceiling beams and away you go :)

dredmorbius• 14 years ago

Some similar designs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAa6bOWB8qY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4yJGTPUR_0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=juW...

As others have noted, the inability to leave items (particularly monitors) on the desk is a major downside.

I'm a fan of the collegiate solution: a loft bed. This is particularly suitable where high ceilings are available, especially cathedral or A-frame designs.

smiler• 14 years ago

You could imagine a few startups putting these into their offices :)

s_v• 14 years ago

Have you considered using cardboard instead of steel?

verisimilidude• 14 years ago

I do have one very important question about your design. How does the UrbanDesk currently hold up to nasty, aggressive sex? On the bed? On the desk?

This might sound like a joke, and it is, but I'm also totally serious here. Sex is the critical secondary use of beds. Engineering a "smooth ride" seems like an important thing to consider. Google "West Elm bed frame" for some anecdotal evidence of what can go wrong.

Great work, either way. I can always appreciate some clever woodworking.

reustle2• 14 years ago

West Elm Bed Frame: http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/west-elm-bummer-1316

centro• 14 years ago

This problem has already been solved. I wish people would do a little more searching before starting a kickstarter project.

http://bredacomponents.com/shop/hiddenbed.html

maratd• 14 years ago

> $1,383.75 + $80.00 (for full size)

On what planet is that problem solved?

pbreit2• 14 years ago

Yuck, yuck, yuck.

A _much_ better option: http://www.resourcefurniture.com/space-savers/queen-space-sa...

Who should be doing more searching?

waynesutton• 14 years ago

I like, even though there are some similar products he could still launch and compete. Regardless if he's the first, if his product brings something "new to the table" it will be good to see competition in the desk space especially if he can come in at a lower price point.

Remember google wasn't the first search engine.

adrian-inaustin• 14 years ago

honey...honey, wake up...i need to write an email.

reustle2• 14 years ago

I'd buy the designs for $50+ because I will most definitely want to build it myself.

pav3l• 14 years ago

Same. As I was watching the video, I thought "this would be a great project to do", rather than "I'd pay a lot of money for this".

ew• 14 years ago

Superior Wall Beds has something very similar, albeit much more expensive: http://calgarywallbeds.com/products/desk-bed.cfm

Nimi• 14 years ago

Really cool idea! Maybe add a monitor frame, rigged to the underside of the bed, so the user can have a monitor "on" the desk?

mattbot5000• 14 years ago

Are you going to implement any safety features such as a locking mechanism to prevent the bed from falling on someone sitting at the desk?

rangibaby• 14 years ago

Pretty cool idea, I am looking forward to seeing the final steel version if this gets funded. Until then I will stick with a futon.

gasull• 14 years ago

I just use a Japanese futon and it works great. It's also the most comfortable "bed" I've ever had, with the best back support: the floor.

countessa• 14 years ago

my problem with this is, with space at a premium, i currently use the underside of my bed to store linen, towels, clothes, etc etc etc.....

willyt• 14 years ago

Some super quick comments.

What is the mechanical engineering behind this? Did you do all the calcs? Simulate it in CAD or something? Gas struts need to be tuned to the weight you are counter balancing; are you selling or recommending a particular mattress with this? How much resistance do the gas struts provide at the top of the stroke, what happens if you drop it at 3/4 raised? Do you need to fix this back to the wall or floor; i.e. could the whole thing topple over on top of you if it jammed while you were lowering it? Can you see all the parts where childrens fingers might get caught from the raising lowering position? The desk pantograph mechanism has quite slender struts, they look like they could be quite easily damaged.

Most double beds have a central beam under the slats and a lot more slats than this. Why is yours different?

In general, it's one thing to use your own prototype where you have an intuitive understanding of its weaknesses, but when other people use it they will break things you wouldn't expect. Will it fail safe?

It looks terrible, some bits of structure look too big and some too small. There are parts of the design where the same problem has been solved with a different solution, why isn't it symmetrical?

$650 Including all labour? Seems too cheap. Are you expecting people to build this out of construction grade timber like the prototype?

jaseemabid• 14 years ago

Here is what I think about it.

Why are you flipping the bed to the wall? 1. The cot will slip down, will be a mess and I will have to fix it everyday. BAD 2. Unstable structure - Why is the heavy/big part on top ?

It would have been better if this was like a standard desktop table. You could pull the whole table from underneath of the bed and put it above the bed like pulling a keyboard dock. The table would stay on top of the bed when in use and can be pushed underneath. Much better. This whole thing looks stupid to me.

bobsy• 14 years ago

I think its a terrible idea.

So you wake up:

1. Make bed and tuck in sheets so when bed is folded all the bedding doesn't fall off. 2. Fold up bed - desk appears. 3. Unbox everything to put on desk 4. Plug in any electrical equipment. (obviously a desktop computer would be very impractical. 5. Pull up a chair and do some work.

When your done reverse the steps. You cannot leave any work out or organized on your desk ready for the next day as you need your bed. Your desk chair I guess needs to be left in the corner at night as there is no table to tuck it under.

It just seems like the guy is combining 2 pieces of furniture which should not be combined.

acous• 14 years ago

It's pretty obvious from the video that you can leave stuff on the desk when you pull down the bed.

smoyer• 14 years ago

In the early '80s I had the same problem with my dorm room and solved it by raising the bed above the desk. It looks like you have plenty of ceiling height and eliminates the need to unmake and remake the bed (or desk). The back of my desk also had a hutch for storage.

Now 30 years later, my daughter's dorm room came equipped with a bed that was designed to be raised above either the desk or a bit of seating. I don't see a reason to flip the bed if you're not looking for open floor-space.

Show HN: UrbanDesk - Combination Full Size Bed and Desk

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