Music eases surgery and speeds recovery, study finds

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c231dv9zpz3o

by 1659447091 • 8 months ago

222 97 8 months ago

Study: https://mmd.iammonline.com/index.php/musmed/article/view/111...

flave5• 8 months ago

Better to link the actual study rather than what a know-nothing hack has to say about it: https://mmd.iammonline.com/index.php/musmed/article/view/111...

Nothing against the BBC but the most thoughtful journalist has all the scientific knowledge of Tarot Reader’s cat.

Anyway, n=56 which is fine I guess but leaves loads of margin for error.

Personally, I had a cystoscope and at the time had fancy health insurance so went to a bling London hospital and the surgeon insisted I listened to music - saying exactly what this article said. It lowers cortisol after, makes you less restless during and improves patient reported outcomes.

You can look up what a cystoscope is, I elected to do it with a blocker rather than with a general anaesthetic. All I will say is that track Shadowboxin’ by GLA is now completely unlistenable for me!

comradesmith• 8 months ago

That is so incredibly rude of you. Science communication to the general public is valuable.

Let’s not forget that the author is a person too, just cause you don’t like it doesn’t mean you’ve got any place to talk down on them.

flave5• 8 months ago

I’m sure the individual writer is smart educated and thoughtful, but the system of science journalism (science communication is different but equally flawed) is so bent-out-of-shape as to be effectively worthless.

Like, take this exact article as a great example. I’m sure Mr Biswas is genuinely very intelligent and thoughtful and a great journalist but having him write a science article is unfair on him and on readers.

Doesn’t even have an undergraduate in a science subject, has never worked as a scientist, and his job is as a national correspondent.

Perhaps my wording prioritised humour over fairness - I’ll take the criticism on that. But I don’t think my core point was wrong. How can you “communicate” something you yourself don’t understand?

Finally, I want to stress again - it’s not his fault. The system is broken.

dev_hugepages• 8 months ago

I kind of understand where they come from: science vulgarization in pop news has been riddled with misinterpretation or lack of depth which can mislead the general public.

ucha• 8 months ago

n=56 doesn't give you much information regarding the margin of error, unless you practice Tarot Reader's cat science. The standard deviation of outcomes and the difference between both outcomes matter just as much.

If I flip a coin 56 times and it always falls on head, I can be pretty much certain that it's not a fair coin. I wouldn't need to flip it 1000 times. We are all someone else's "know-nothing hack"...

laborcontract• 8 months ago

also, “this is study is flawed because n=56, here’s my n=1” is hilarious

mentalgear2• 8 months ago

I also had cystoscope and the nurses suggested music - in addition to the pain killer. So yeah, I would say peaceful music helped me, but not as a replacement to a painkiller.

blutoot• 8 months ago

How did the BBC guy generalize this to all kinds of surgeries? https://mmd.iammonline.com/index.php/musmed/article/view/111...

ports543u• 8 months ago

The paper mentions it being about total IV anaesthesia with propofol, so it should be generalizable to all surgeries with the same anesthetic conditions.

jonwinstanley• 8 months ago

Sure, but it melts off your face

afandian• 8 months ago

I think those are a pre-surgery photographs.

arethuza2• 8 months ago

A while back I had to have a long and unpleasant dental procedure - a bone graft so I could get an implant in an area where the bone had been damaged - this took about 4 hours. During this time the dentist played music - mostly various works selected at random by Hans Zimmer.

At one point things got a bit intense as apparently I have very hard bones - which meant that quite a bit of force was being used. The music playing during this part of the procedure was "No Time for Caution" - which I thought was hilarious... and this fact kind of took my mind off of things.

rurp• 8 months ago

Hah, that's great.

My dentist has overhead TVs in all of the rooms. Before a longer appointment I asked if I could bring some over-ear headphones to connect to the TV. Surprisingly nobody had asked that before but they were fine with it. The headphones drowned out the drilling and other noises and helped me zone out into some shows.

arethuza2• 8 months ago

I'm very short sighted so TVs wouldn't work for me, but I also tend to keep my eyes tight shut in case I see any of the ghastly instruments being used!

[During the bone graft I did open my eyes briefly and saw a small for clearly identifiable circular saw].

dakial1• 8 months ago

Hans Zimmer is my soundtrack of choice for focus (Dune 2 is specially good). Found out that a colleague also had the same taste which was surprising for me, now I imagine it is a common use case for his music.

mauvehaus• 8 months ago

My now-wife had her wisdom teeth pulled not too long after we met. The oral surgeon suggested music or an audiobook. She chose a Game of Thrones book, which was fine until it got to a torture scene as they were rooting around in her mouth. At which point she was unable to change it. Surprisingly, she still likes the audiobooks.

edm0nd• 8 months ago

Was it the part where Theon Greyjoy is getting his penis cut off by Ramsey?

shevy-java• 8 months ago

I am always so peaceful when listening to heavy metal ... :D

I think the article should focus more on good music elements versus bad music elements. My brain gets annoyed at bad music. Good music can be useful though, in particular for relaxing. I normally dislike jazz-elements, but Sade for instance is acceptable (not pure jazz, but she uses jazzy elements).

dyauspitr• 8 months ago

Good music is subjective. Aside from the guitar skills involved in shredding, I think heavy metal is probably the worst genre of music.

j_mo• 8 months ago

I'd say good music is objective. Whether it's hard to play, uses complex polyrhythms etc. which most listeners aren't even aware of - and those people tend to think good music is subjective as they can't perceive the quality, only whether they like it or not. There's also some incredibly skilful metal music with no "shredding" whatsoever.

I don't particularly like Mozart but I'd be an idiot to say it's not good music. On the other hand most people agree Taylor Swift does not make good music, having released lots of samey 4 chord songs with incredibly simple melodies, but she's one of the most listened artists of all time.

lawgimenez• 8 months ago

Heavy metal/hardcore is good music. Mumble rap is bad music.

Anthony-G• 8 months ago

I'm more a fan of atmospheric black metal, 80's thrash and prog metal, myself but the psychological effects of listening to death metal have been researched. As previously discussed on Hacker News:

Dissecting the Bloodthirsty Bliss of Death Metal: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18335308

Death metal music inspires joy not violence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19383699

thomasfl• 8 months ago

If music is so valuable to us humans, then why can't humanity make a site like wikipedia for free music? There is a new generation growing up used to streaming services costing 10 bucks a month.

postshakeman• 8 months ago

If it’s so valuable why not pay people that make it?

eptcyka• 8 months ago

Lets pay for new music, but how about we have the old stuff be available for free or at cost?

LeoPanthera• 8 months ago

https://musopen.org

https://imslp.org

https://freemusicarchive.org

https://www.jamendo.com

https://ccmixter.org

https://freepd.com

https://incompetech.com

https://audionautix.com

dualogy• 8 months ago

For flow-compatible electronica, let me add specifically:

https://netlabels.org/electronic-music/

https://files.scene.org/browse/music/

https://netlabelarchive.org/

https://freemusicarchive.org/label/all/

ssl-3• 8 months ago

Wikipedia covers music very well. It often doesn't include the music itself, but there's a ton of great writing and history about music.

And many artists still publish CDs, vinyl records, and other physical artifacts just like they have for ~most of our collective lifetimes. If you want new generations to experience that kind of thing, then buy some of it for them to experience.

(Or, you know: If that seems like too much work or too much money, then a streaming subscription is only about 10 bucks a month. I spent a lot more than that on music when I was a kid.)

suyash2• 8 months ago

Music is truly a form of medicine!

tsimionescu• 8 months ago

Wait till you hear how much we have to pay for other life-saving things like drugs and surgery...

buildsjets• 8 months ago

The kids are gonna be alright. King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard archives all of their concert tapings on archive.org.

https://archive.org/details/KingGizzardAndTheLizardWizard

userbinator• 8 months ago

It's called YouTube.

b112• 8 months ago

Some find music to be distracting, and therefore don't listen to it. This can build a general dislike of music.

I presume such souls may wither away and die, while in a coma, as a person "helpfully" plays very annoying sounds 24x7.

An alternate, is I do see some very strong preferences for music, with strongly expressed dislikes, even among music lovers. I can imagine the same, someone in a coma giving up and dying, to "get away" from the horror.

(Meant as an amusing thought, I doubt any would vacate this world to escape)

Havoc• 8 months ago

Even as the drugs silence much of her brain, its auditory pathway remains partly active.

oh that's interesting. From headline I had assumed we're talking post op

noduerme• 8 months ago

I'm going in for facial blurring surgery like that gentleman next week. I'm hopeful it will help with my social anxiety.

suyash2• 8 months ago

Every hospital bed should have a comfortable pair of noise cancelling headphones with a variety of music for patient comfort.

bell-cot• 8 months ago

Music might be nice - but I'd prioritize comfy noise cancelling headphones and sleep masks, so the poor patients can get some sleep amid the hospital's beeping gadgets, hard surfaces, and blinkenlights.

wrp• 8 months ago

I recently attended someone in the hospital. The constant beeping and alarms round the clock prevented any deep sleep for days, and seemed to hinder recovery.

alt2273• 8 months ago

No thanks, who knows where those ear cups have been!

mikkupikku• 8 months ago

That will be $500, plus $2/minute, plus tip.

gniv2• 8 months ago

I will have surgery soon. If I ask the surgeon to allow me to listen to music during the surgery, will they allow it? I know it depends on hospital/surgeon/etc, but I'm wondering how much doctors are willing to deviate from protocol in general.

have_faith• 8 months ago

Not the same but I wore ear buds and listened to music while having a tooth pulled, they didn’t mind.

devilbunny2• 8 months ago

Depends on the surgery and how you want to listen.

Ask to have it played in the room? Sure. Want to listen on your own device? We don’t want to be responsible for loss or damage to that device. Want to use earbuds? Same problem if you’re going to be sedated at all, plus there is also the risk of damage to you if there’s metal anywhere.

One of the most commonly used instruments in surgery is electrocautery. A large pad is placed on (usually) a leg and is one electrode; the other is the instrument tip that does the burning. In theory, any metal in the current path could be a point for arcing. This is why you are asked to remove piercings (see your piercer for silicone plugs to fill the holes during surgeries). We don’t want to torch you.

I’m an anesthesiologist. Some of the risks we are guarding against are more theoretical than practical, but until the 1950’s all useful anesthetic gases were flammable and so protocols were focused on not setting the patients or the operating room on fire, and while we no longer have conductive floors and grounding chains around our waists, we do still worry about setting patients on fire (alcohol is still a common solvent for skin prep solutions). And we don’t want to lose or damage your stuff.

gniv2• 8 months ago

Thanks, that's useful. My procedure is supposed to be 2 hours, laparoscopic. I will ask but without getting my hopes up.

squigz4• 8 months ago

How often do patients request this? Do surgeons ever say no? I would think there's a risk of distraction here.

moron4hire2• 8 months ago

I wore a VR headset during a "simple" outpatient surgery with local anesthetic. The anesthetic wore off halfway through. The VR headset did not help. I nearly passed out from the pain.

DANmode3• 8 months ago

They’re meant to administer more local at that stage.

alentred• 8 months ago

I wonder what kind/style of music was used in the study. A further study might even try comparing different music styles.

Razengan2• 8 months ago

Man, all these "study finds" about things that are intuitively obvious to most humans, but others need "studies" to believe.

squigz4• 8 months ago

That isn't the point of studies finding results that seem "intuitive"

The point is that designing laws, regulations, guidelines, safety standards, etc, based on "intuition" is not very rational.

Razengan2• 8 months ago

I recall seeing some fairly befuddling ones, like "Study finds that a green environment with plants & flowers reduces depression" etc., how do you even quantify this into numbers?

I tell you I feel good if there's more greenery in the city, you want proof to see "how" good before you build more parks?

heelix• 8 months ago

When covid hit, my wife showed stroke symptoms - half her face stopped working (bell's palsy). She had an MRI as part of the diagnostic. As part of it, the operator asked her if she wanted to have some music. Yes please, some soft 80's love songs.

"Welcome to the jungle, we got fun and games..."

It was not the calming music she was expecting. She still jokes about it.

kunley3• 8 months ago

The crucial issue is: what kind of music. A lot of what's nowadays called music is actually rather a "sounds with some beat" category.

arcanemachiner• 8 months ago

Damn kids and their hibbity hoppity...

lleu3• 8 months ago

Different frequencies, different arrangement of tones and melodies, production and tonal qualities of the recording, and all manner of composition variations have different effects.

It might be crass way to say it, but it's a real worthwhile line of inquiry.

Don't think you can smack any beat on someone's head and it will cure cancer. It's not all equal.

Broad strokes here... if you look at another vibrational medium for parallels: the colour red can indicate something about the chemical contents of a material, and thus the effects it may have. A soft black carrot may not have the same beneficial qualities as a crisp red, purple, or white carrot...

iterance• 8 months ago

I think you maybe just don't like it?

cobri• 8 months ago

From the study: "The musical pieces were selected based on their slow and meditative tempo (60-100 beats per minute), and only non -lyrical instrumental piano or flute based versions were chosen.The flute version which was preferred by most patients was a combination of Raga Yaman and Raga Kirwani. Raga Yaman is bright and uplifting and Raga Kir wani is known for its soothing and calming effects. Combining these two Hindustani classical ragas provides musically uplifting qualities that could be helpful in reducing the stress associated with surgical procedures and control the hemodynamic responses to surgery. Noise cancelling headphoneswere used to play the instrumental pieces at 60db."

simonask• 8 months ago

Music major here. Surprise, all music you know is “sounds with some beat”.

I don’t know what counts as Music to you, but I sure hope you’re not out here trying to promote your particular taste as somehow more refined, because we know a lot about how that is usually just good old classist, generational, or racist biases peeking out.

kunley3• 8 months ago

Who is "we", this magical entity eager to accuse somebody for classism and/or racism? Who are you speaking for? Because for sure not for the entire HN user base

dmoy• 8 months ago

I once played a song that I swear had no verifiable beat. It was some insane Stravinsky piece, sounded like random-ass noise.

But other than weird avant-garde stuff that seems to intentionally try to not have a beat, I agree all music tends to be sounds with some beat.

Madmallard• 8 months ago

I think the accusers here are far more likely to be the prejudiced ones

vjvjvjvjghv• 8 months ago

Music you like.

npteljes• 8 months ago

In case anyone else is also interested in the "what kind of music", this is straight from the study:

>The patients were asked to choose their preferred music from two prerecorded instrumental musical pieces instituted as the music therapy. We used non lyrical, soft, slow tempo, relaxing instrumental musical pieces of either flute [click here for audio]or piano [click here for audio]as the choices presented to the patient.The musical pieces were selected based on their slow and meditative tempo (60-100 beats per minute), and only non -lyrical instrumental piano or flute based versions were chosen.The flute version which was preferred by most patients was a combination of Raga Yaman and Raga Kirwani. Raga Yaman is bright and uplifting and Raga Kir wani is known for its soothing and calming effects. Combining these two Hindustani classical ragas provides musically uplifting qualities that could be helpful in reducing the stress associated with surgical procedures and control the hemodynamic responses to surgery. Noise cancelling headphoneswere used to play the instrumental pieces at 60db. The musical piece was played for the entire duration of the surgery on loop using blue tooth connectivity of the headphones with a mobile phone.<<

fnord77• 8 months ago

why did op take "indian study" out of the title?

kderbyma• 8 months ago

This is not surprising to me. It’s clearly directly wired into our emotions and nervous system. The nervous system is the key part which is being healed and so stimulation will likely increase the speed of reconnections

Music eases surgery and speeds recovery, study finds

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