In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/01/technology/in-europe-speed-cameras-meet-their-technological-match.html

by pinko • 14 years ago

18 54 14 years ago

Zenst• 14 years ago

Not all cameras are static in europe, this is were these type of systems fall down. Having a subscription to some service that lists were they are and warns you and is updated by you or somebody else who pays a subscription is ok if you like to speed about on dynamic routes. Though anybody who travels the sameish journey a few times will soon know were and when to be mindful of traffic camera's.

I often see policemen with handheld speed kit and mobile camera units, most councils in even have cars with a periscope camera ontop that drive around automaticly processing so many driving violations its just to stressful to drive. But welcome to the UK/Europe and do have a nice stay as we are watching you.

masklinn• 14 years ago

> Not all cameras are static in europe, this is were these type of systems fall down.

Theoretically, these systems can also handle education by pointing out the current speed limit dynamically (as the speed limit may change around accidents or depending on the weather). They can also warn about other "dangers" than radars, and as the article notes the french govt had coyote change this last year: coyote now reports the user has entered a "danger zone" without specifying what the danger is (can be a radar, but can also be an accident or some other kind of issue)

NameNickHN3• 14 years ago

The number of users is large enough now that even mobile speed cameras are now thoroughly reported for all but the really sparsely inhabited areas.

namdnay7• 14 years ago

Coyote is a dynamic system. You can flag radars (or "danger zones"), and if enough people flag it everyone will be warned. You can also flag zones as being outdated (i.e. the cops have gone home)

nodata2• 14 years ago

And on the metro, ticket inspectors are now redundant: not true, they adapted: now the ticket inspectors board for one station and switch trains. Made every service useless in one sweep.

qznc• 14 years ago

The state should endorse this technology. Once everybody has one, they can remove the cameras and everybody will still obey their devices.

nodata2• 14 years ago

That's a very good point: if the cameras are there to prevent accidents, then these databases really are doing their job in making people slow down for them.

zalew2• 14 years ago

> if the cameras are there to prevent accidents

cameras are to easily collect fines.

dangrossman• 14 years ago

I was surprised the first time my cheap-o year-old Garmin GPS started beeping at me when I drove through an unfamiliar city: apparently it came with a free database of red-light cameras and was telling me every time I came near one, along with displaying the current speed limit. I'm not in Europe.

btbuilder• 14 years ago

This system will help you identify the speed averaging plate recognition systems used on a lot of Britain's roads, but you won't be able to slow down and speed up again for the camera.

zxcdw• 14 years ago

What do you do when cameras start calculating the average speed over some distance, rather than doing single-spot measurements? :)

m_eiman2• 14 years ago

This has been tried in Sweden, and IIRC the court said that since it can't be proven who drove the car between the cameras it's not possible to fine the driver.

furyg3• 14 years ago

Bah, just fine the car owner, it's easy enough for him to have control of his vehicle, unless he reported it as stolen.

This isn't a murder trial, it's a minor infraction, like a parking ticket.

jrnkntl• 14 years ago

We have this in the Netherlands (among others), it's called 'trajectcontrole' here, and it works/helps enforcing the speed. See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECS_(speed_camera)

smiler• 14 years ago

We already have those in the UK

ljf• 14 years ago

They have these on various motorways and cities in the UK - and they work brilliantly - once you are in (a well signposted) 'average speed check' area, everyone slows down and does the speed limit.

You could still be warned that you are aproaching the area though. Interestingly these use front mounted cameras (to capture the driver) so have no effect on motorbikes - though the general slower speed seems to slow them on the motorways.

As a cyclist (and driver) I think they are great for city driving, and a much better solution than speedbumps or other calming measures.

pvidler• 14 years ago

Average speed checks are awful — I spend more time looking at the speedo than I do the road, as I try to keep close to the limit while not hitting the car in front. And they are always for odd speeds that I find difficult to maintain (just the wrong pedal position).

Perhaps they make sense when everyone has cruise control as standard to rely on, but until then a mass rollout would drive me to public transport. Or is that the point?

jrabone• 14 years ago

Except they don't - they do whatever their woefully inaccurate speedometer thinks the limit is. Since I drive something with cruise control and GPS-indicated speed, I invariably find myself iterating cruise control settings to match with the traffic. As for changing lanes, forget it - everyone will be driving 3 feet of the bumper in front, because the traffic concertina'ed up when it saw the first camera. You'd better be in the correct lane for your exit before you hit the averaging zone, or you're taking the scenic route.

Depressingly, I can't think of a better solution. Driving makes people into assholes, myself included, and averaging cameras are about the only thing that works. Speed bumps and traffic calming simply cause an arms race of bigger and bigger SUVs that simply roll over anything smaller than a mini with impunity.

I suppose they could try the Edinburgh approach of simply not repairing the roads, in favour of spending the money on an overgrown toy train set for the current set of ideologically-challenged councillors.

thedrbrian• 14 years ago

Except when you want to leave the motorway only to find 3 lanes cars driving in formation preventing anyone from leaving.

NameNickHN3• 14 years ago

The app from blitzer.de (called CamSam in the various app stores) lets you know if there is a section control ahead. If you're still speeding, that's your own fault, I guess.

It's also planned to display the average speed during a section control, but that is not part yet of the current version, I believe.

buro9• 14 years ago

Depends on the frequency of cameras, if it is just at the on and off ramps of a motorway, then one could exceed the speed limit for most of the way, determine how much time has been saved and enjoy a tea break at the service station before the last exit.

On a whole day drive that would still be faster as the speeding means you don't have to add on time for breaks.

In France that's effectively what happens. The toll gates are used to determine the average speed check over a journey, and so you can notice that the last service station before a toll gate is busier.

Not that I had a chance to do the same in the clapped out old Volvo I drove through France in.

I personally think average speed checks are great. In London I'd love to see the congestion charge cameras (number recognition technology) also used to check for average speed between any two cameras. I think that if people knew the whole of the city centre had average speed check enforcement that it would be a great benefit to the safety of pedestrians, cyclists and other road users in the city.

Mordor• 14 years ago

How about no cameras and no road markings, creating a shared space for everyone?

pjmlp• 14 years ago

The thing with these systems is when you get caught, you don't pay a simple fine, you just loose your driving license.

The journalists should inform themselves better, as European I doubt anyone is easily left of the hook if caught during a police control using such device.

msh• 14 years ago

In what country do you loose your license? Certanly not in all eu countries.

huhtenberg• 14 years ago

mjwalshe - you are shadow-banned. Just FYI

Patrikvo• 14 years ago

In Belgium it's legal to have GPS with a speedcamera database. Mobile speedcameras are commonly announced on the radio too. All perfectly legal. Active radar detection on the other hand is illegal.

NameNickHN3• 14 years ago

In Switzerland, for example, you will lose the device. But in Germany, apps on smartphones or tablet PCs are considered legal. Only devices whose sole purpose is warning of speed cameras, are banned.

corford2• 14 years ago

There is a system in France called Coyote which is completely legal and works extremely well. It comes with an inbuilt database of static speed traps but the killer feature is a button that each unit has which you press if you pass a mobile speed trap. The device then sends the co-ords via the GSM network back to Coyote head quarters who then relay the info to every other Coyote user in real time. It's really effective.

Site is here: http://www.moncoyote.com/

Gmo3• 14 years ago

Yeah although they had to fight a bit. Because it became illegal to announce speed cameras, but they have the right to announce "dangerous zones" ...

namdnay7• 14 years ago

Yes, this is described in the first paragraph of the article...

jsvaughan• 14 years ago

According to this (http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/radar-detector...):

For some years now it is has been strictly forbidden under article R413-15 of the French 'Code de la Route' (highway code) to have a speed camera detector in a car in France, regardless of whether or not it is being used. Penalties can include fines of up to €1,500, confiscation of the device and of the vehicle. Until recently this legislation didn't apply to satellite navigation or other GPS-based systems capable of displaying fixed speed camera locations as points of interest (PoI).

Effective from 3 January 2012 French laws prohibiting drivers from carrying devices capable of detecting speed cameras have been extended to include devices able to warn or inform of the location of speed cameras e.g. satnav or gps systems capable of showing speed camera sites as PoI.

As well as now banning all devices capable of warning drivers of speed camera locations, the French government is installing around 400 new fixed speed cameras and is taking down road signs indicating the location of existing fixed speed camera sites.

namdnay7• 14 years ago

Radar detectors and radar "warners" are still in a different category. In any case, all warning systems have been upgraded to become "danger zone warning systems" :)

ovi256• 14 years ago

Coyote is a nice French startup success story, also an embedded hardware success, similar to Parrot.

I'm a bit disappointed that it fits the typical parisian pattern of elder, management consultants founders. No twenty-something founders changing the world here!

goggles992• 14 years ago

Cameras are pretty cheap, can't they just put more in.

namdnay7• 14 years ago

A speed camera costs about 75k euros to install, and then needs to be maintained, calibrated etc

goggles992• 14 years ago

Hmm, only a government would pay so much for a camera... Perhaps therein lies the problem though.

lloeki2• 14 years ago

> the use of radar-detection services like Coyote’s, which also monitors a driver’s speed against posted limits and advises of traffic jams, was applauded last year by the French government as a useful driver education tool, which helped legitimize the service.

I don't know where they saw that. "Radar-detection[1] services like Coyote’s" are universally criticized by the (past and present) French government: a bill passed recently rendering their use illegal. Now such devices alert you of a "danger zone", and the hypocrisy just grows bigger.

I can be controlled for speed up to five times on a 10km, 20min commute, yet I've been controlled only two times in 20 years for alcohol.

[1] This term is incorrect, radar detection systems (the little thingies that detect radar EM emissions) are completely banned, whereas radar alert systems (where a geolocation database is filled by professionals and/or the community and checked against current position) were until recently allowed, and banned recently.

namdnay7• 14 years ago

Also, the article implies that

a) Coyote is new b) Coyote is a smartphone app

Both of these are false: Coyote is about 7 years old, and the "warner" is an independent module that uses the GSM network

lloeki2• 14 years ago

Actually, b) is true: see [1]

[1] http://itunes.apple.com/fr/app/icoyote-europe/id367345773?mt...

josephlord• 14 years ago

Automated enforcement doesn't catch the most dangerous drivers (erratic tailgaters etc.) and it increases the incentive to steal or clone number plates.

It is pretty rare to see a police vehicle on the UK motorways. I probably see one on my carriageway less than once every thousand miles and that includes where they are dealing with an accident or traffic stop. Our roads are pretty safe by global standards so maybe that is ok and money is better spent engineering out accident black spots.

In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

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