Notch: "I'd rather have minecraft not run on win 8 at all than to play along."

http://kotaku.com/5947162/notch-id-rather-have-minecraft-not-run-on-win-8-at-all-than-to-play-along

by evo_9 • 14 years ago

201 123 14 years ago

sbochins• 14 years ago

Don't quite get what his beef is with Windows 8. It doesn't really seem to be "openness" issues like he is saying. If that were the case why would he have ported his code to Xbox (another closed microsoft platform). If he doesn't like the Metro UI why is he complaining about things being closed. I guess people don't usually really think about what they say when they tweet.

kreeger• 14 years ago

The Xbox never was an open platform to begin with, unlike the PC. The PC has never been the kind of platform to lock stuff down; while Microsoft may have their merits for doing so, a lot of people are up in arms about it and rightly so (as the PC is so widely distributed).

Plus, while Mojang did license and partner the code with another firm for the Xbox port, they didn't create it directly themselves.

reddit_clone2• 14 years ago

Well, XBox was a closed system to begin with.

May be his beef is that Windows, up to now fairly open is now becoming a walled garden. And he is being vocal about it.

powertower2• 14 years ago

Windows 8 app certification requirements http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh69408...

> 1.2 Your app must be fully functional when the customer gets it from the Windows Store

> 1.3 Your app’s trial functionality must reasonably resemble its full functionality

> 1.4 Each app must display only one tile after it is installed

...

Have no idea what he is complaining about. If he doesn't want to be on Metro, he can always be on the Desktop. He certainly doesn't mind it being on iPhones, iPads, and on Android devices.

smartician• 14 years ago

Is this new Windows "app store" the only way one can install software in the future, or is it just one additional way to deploy applications, which is more streamlined? If it's the latter, then I would think a "certification" process makes sense. It's not about closing down a platform, it's about establishing a more user friendly installation experience.

Legion• 14 years ago

There's a reason Minecraft was created on the PC and ported to the Xbox, and not the other way around.

The issue here isn't "death to all closed systems", but rather taking one of the few open ones left and making steps towards closing it.

chuppo• 14 years ago

SecureBoot, UEFI and such, the PC is forced to stop being a general purpose computing device, and more like an xbox, ps3 or smartphone - a computing device where the manufacturer and/or os-maker controls what can and will run on the device.

Its about your freedom. Freedom to run whatever computations you please on general purpose computers that you own. With SecureBoot and win8 so is not the case.

stephengillie• 14 years ago

The article lists many tech celebrities whose dire predictions have made other articles. I'm still waiting to see the technical problems each has with Win8.

dpark• 14 years ago

Wait, so he's refusing to put Minecraft in the Windows Store because it's "less open" than Windows 7? Didn't his company rewrite Minecraft so that he could sell it on iOS?

zmmmmm2• 14 years ago

He's not refusing to put on the store. He's refusing to go through a charade of "certification" to assist MS to put it on the store - essentially to assist them in closing down their open platform by getting all the popular titles into the closed ecosystem. If MS will open up the store put it there without certification then I suspect he's fine with it.

While it would certainly have been more consistent to withhold the iOS port, there was no equally good open alternative on that platform, so it would have been a fairly futile gesture. On Win8, having independent games continue to thrive and ignore the Metro store will make a tangible difference to Microsoft's ability to shut down legacy apps in the future. So I can sympathise with why he would treat these situations differently.

recoiledsnake3• 14 years ago

I find your argument specious at best. If we're talking the Metro store, Windows RT tablet users(eg. the Surface RT users) will be unable to run the game simply because they're ARM machines like the iPad on which the game runs on.

It's funny that he has no problem going through the certification for the "Post-PC" iOS app store which is supposedly killing the PC and going to sell more than PCs in the near future. But suddenly he has a problem with Windows 8 and Windows RT. There is a disconnect here.

> If MS will open up the store put it there without certification then I suspect he's fine with it.

Sorry, but is this a joke? Every malware, spyware, virus, grayware, toolbar, Bonzi Buddy clones will end up in the store.

Look at what Steam had to do with Greenlight.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-31-valve-bans-stea...

http://www.shacknews.com/article/75603/steam-greenlight-adds...

thetabyte2• 14 years ago

What people here aren't getting with the references to XBox and iOS is that Notch's objections aren't to closed platforms. He objects to PCs as closed platforms. Minecraft was originally an indie game developed for PCs due to their open ecosystem. It was only able to reach closed markets like iOS and XBox because of its success as a side project on an open platform. Notch strongly believes that the computer should stay a bastion of openness in order to sustain a indie game community--indeed, the majority of my own games I play today are small, independent games that provide a unique experience that I would hate to lose due to higher barriers to entry.

kenjackson3• 14 years ago

How would the existence of Windows 8 stopped the creation of Minecraft? He still could have developed with it (there's the desktop). He could have deployed his app, had it certified, etc... There doesn't seem to be anything that openness would have provided him.

Open platforms are good for a few classes of devs:

1) Devs at competing companies. Closed platforms make it easier for one company to shut out a competitor.

2) Malware creators.

3) HW tinkerers. This is probably the class I have the most empathy for. With that said Win8 has a complete desktop mode fully available for tinkering.

Retric• 14 years ago

There is no way to do a truly large scale beta on iOS. Your options are to release it to a select group, or go though the review process are release to everyone. That's not to say all Closed platforms would have caused issues with Mincraft just some of them.

thetabyte2• 14 years ago

"had it certified"

Bam. I have no idea quite how intensive the review process is (I'm no Windows programmer, so the requirements don't mean much to me) but any additional barrier is something that holds back the finnicky and decentralized indie crowd. Not only will it present another technical barrier that they will have no interest in surpassing, but there will likely be a cultural and psychological backlash of having to certify their version 0 project with Microsoft. Not to mention how certification requirements would impact beta releases and feedback.

maratd2• 14 years ago

You have no experience dealing with a 3rd party that controls the marketplace.

Apple's behavior is not exceptional. It's how every monopolist behaves when they own the market. I dealt with the very same issues when I had my own business selling on eBay.

At the end of the day, when you have to move your product through someone's market, it's not your product, it's not your business, and those aren't your customers.

It's all theirs. Because if you do something they don't like, they will just turn you off ... or worse, they'll call you and tell you to change it.

> There doesn't seem to be anything that openness would have provided him.

It would have provided him the freedom of developing the product he wants, without compromise. It would have allowed him to take his vision directly to his customers. And nobody would be able to get in his way.

> With that said Win8 has a complete desktop mode fully available for tinkering.

Have you tried installing unsigned software on Windows 8? You get a huge window pretty much saying NO. Only after clicking on more info, do you get an option to override. I can only guess what will happen with Windows 9?

krichman2• 14 years ago

It's possible to have an open platform and keep malware out. It's possible to go as far as OS X-style sandboxing but allow certificate authentication by more than one CA.

But the track that Win and OS X are taking is to try and create monopolies and control the entire software experience. This is detrimental to the users as well as the developers; try to make a utility app that launches other apps, resizes windows, alters your network connections on a system-wide basis, or includes plugin functionality and put it in the App Store.

Trying to make an argument like "oh but users can change the settings and run untrusted apps" is just a huge cop-out because the average user is not going to do that ever.

greggman• 14 years ago

I'm going to guess,

* Not being able to ship Minecraft in the Win8 store because it uses Java and Java doesn't (yet?) follow the rules required for the store. Store apps require you to use approved APIs, where as Java, being older, calls all kinds of stuff not allowed by store apps.

* Not being able to provide updates anytime you want as each update requires approval.

* Not being able to give away free copies of paid apps (need codes from MS)

* Not being able to bundle with other apps like the humble bundles as the store provides no way to bundle apps.

* Not being able to resell licenses (not sure if Minecraft supports that. If not they could decide to in the future. But not if they're in the Win8 store)

I'm sure others can list more things you can't do on the W8 store that you can do on an open platform.

throwaway642• 14 years ago

>here doesn't seem to be anything that openness would have provided him.

you are clearly not familiar with the history of minecraft, they have a long history, especially in the begging of pushing out features very rapidly, along with the bugfixes that inevitably come with rapid development, not to mention their recent weekly development builds anyone can run.

this kind of very rapid development/response was a big factor in the "viral" nature of minecraft, users could get excited about new features that might be comming tomorrow

How much of this would have been possible, while waiting for months for apple/etc approval?

not to mention the huge modding community that has grown up around minecraft, with virtually every multiplier server and most single player clients being heavily customized and modded.

That would be completely impossible under an iOS style system.

hetman• 14 years ago

Yes, I can see how making an application more consistent and predictable would be terrible for the end users.

corporalagumbo3• 14 years ago

Yeah, and I bet they're gunna really loathe buying certified apps from a unified marketplace with extremely streamlined install and uninstall processes.

kenjackson3• 14 years ago

With all due respect, I'm going to Windows 8. I'd like Minecraft to be there, but if it's not, I'm sure some other indie developer will put together a compelling game on the platform.

genbattle• 14 years ago

I think he's not so much against having Minecraft run on Windows 8 at all (i'm sure if Java support it, it'll run), I think he's just more averse to serving it via Microsoft's store.

I think Notch is overreacting in this case because he's already supported Microsoft's platform monopoly with Minecraft on the Xbox 360 (which is completely closed), so this stance seems kind of contrary.

Possibly there's some sort of clause in Microsoft's contracts that says an Application on the Windows Store can't be sold outside the store or something which he's actually getting up in arms about.

I'm not particularly crazy about Windows 8 either, but Notch probably needs to be a little more specific with his protests (then again, it is just a twitter post).

trafficlight2• 14 years ago

I can't remember where I read it, but he has the same attitude about Steam. Notch feels that he has a large enough userbase that Steam (or Windows 8 App store) doesn't offer enough advantages over Mojang's homegrown distribution system.

Goronmon2• 14 years ago

>I think Notch is overreacting in this case because he's already supported Microsoft's platform monopoly with Minecraft on the Xbox 360 (which is completely closed), so this stance seems kind of contrary.

I only think it's contrary if you require people to have simplistic opinions. He wants an open platform when it comes to PC, but isn't that concerned about consoles. I figure he thinks that as long as he has one major open platform he can develop for, he's happy. Microsoft is making moves that suggest they want to move away from an open platform for the PC, so he's understandably concerned.

miguelrochefort• 14 years ago

Windows 7 is just a better Windows 8. Minecraft already is there and it works perfectly. I don't know why so much people are ignorant and hate Windows 8.

sukuriant• 14 years ago

Did you mean to reverse those numbers? Or is Windows 7 a better Windows 8?

recoiledsnake3• 14 years ago

What is Windows 8 "certification" that he's complaining about? Is it about adding it to the Windows Store distributed by Microsoft? In that case, doesn't it need to rebuilt with WinRT/DirectX?

Or to add it as a link to the developer's website like desktop apps can have in the Store?

The requirements are here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh74...

Can't see anything really bad there, if anything those rules finally herd the Windows application cats.

stinos• 14 years ago

exactly. If those really are the requirements it is all about, there's not that much to complain about as most of them are rather 'good practice'. And if you do not follow them your application cannot be in the store? Well boohoo.

throwaway642• 14 years ago

not everyone shares your, or apples ideas, about what constitutes a "good practice"

Goronmon2• 14 years ago

>It must be code and feature complete

At what point in the timeline of Minecraft did it meet this criteria, because when I started playing, this wasn't true, and yet he was still making sales and people were still enjoying the game.

And what happens when Microsoft starts "enhancing" the rules?

watty2• 14 years ago

Apple App Store: "2.6 Apps that are “beta”, “demo”, “trial”, or “test” versions will be rejected."

Minecraft is in the App store.

teamonkey• 14 years ago

> At what point in the timeline of Minecraft did it meet this criteria

When it hit v1.0?

TheSOB88• 14 years ago

Enhancing the rules is the real rub here. They could exert more and more control, and since it would be gradual, people would be less likely to bail than if it had happened all at once.

dmansen• 14 years ago

To all you people saying that this is just "best practices" requirements, etc: do you not realize this is MICROSOFT? The evil empire? He's taking a stand! A completely meaningless stand, but really, this is important!

jebblue• 14 years ago

Well stated, perhaps a quick review will help:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=885975

aristidb• 14 years ago

Why the hostility towards Notch? Minecraft will keep working on Windows 8 (just not in the Store), nothing to fear, move on.[1] It's equally unreasonable to love Microsoft as it is to hate it.

[1] Well, it probably won't work on Windows RT because only Windows Store things work there, but then that would likely require a total rewrite of the Java&OpenGL game to C++&DirectX (or another Microsoft-approved solution) anyways, and Minecraft (as opposed to Minecraft Pocket Edition[2]) is not suitable for tablet touch control anyways.

[2] Which is developed by another firm.

watty2• 14 years ago

I think any hostility you see is due to his comment of "I'd rather have minecraft not run on win 8 at all than to play along.". He'd never be dumb enough to do this so why say it, and why stir the pot with everyone who thinks Minecraft really really might not run on Windows 8?

BCM43• 14 years ago

Why would he never be dumb enough to do this? It seems that he does not see it as a moral decision, and I'm guessing he's betting that windows 8 adoption will never be that large.

jack57• 14 years ago

DISCLAIMER: I use Windows 8 as my main operating system.

The notion that normal desktop applications will not run on Windows 8 is incredible. I could download Minecraft right now, and it would run without a hitch. People need to use Windows 8 and realize that it is an iteration of Windows 7. It feels like Windows 7 with an interesting tablet overlay that I never use.

P.S. Every single game I own on Steam works

ameen3• 14 years ago

I have it on dual boot. Normal desktop applications will work on Windows 8, but if I want to make a Metro version of that app, it has to go through the MS certification and can only be sold on the Windows store.

Metro is where major Win 8 innovations are (AppBar, Charms, App Dashboard, App Lifecycle, etc.)

ameen3• 14 years ago

I'd been wanting to build Windows apps and had been working on one for the past 6 months. I happened to be invited to a MS event for Windows 8 and as excited as I was to be there, I was disappointed to learning that "Metro-style" apps can't be published elsewhere, it has to be from the Windows Store(sic), and with MS handling sales, updates, etc.

What then, is the benefit of an entirely new OS, with a new feature - Metro(the AppBar, charms, dashboard, etc), if you're going to force developers to use your own AppStore? I wouldn't mind giving a cut of my profits to MS, but I wouldn't want to be on their mercy for updates, sales, etc. And if anyone didn't notice, this is the desktop PC we're talking about. I'm not interested in Tablets or other stuff for which my application is clearly not aimed at(neither designed for).

I think Microsoft is aiming to get more applications for its Tablet devices, and in doing so it'll destroy the only remaining MS product that has a huge market share - the desktop PC.

Nokia was once at the same enviable position where MS was, and we all know how that ended.

Viva la Linux!

finnw2• 14 years ago

More likely they expect to get a large market share for free, from name recognition alone. Try convincing a 50-year-old who has owned nothing but Windows PCs for 25 years that a new Windows 8 (or 9) PC is not what they need.

kleiba• 14 years ago

I so wish Notch would stream another coding session to twitch.tv again.

jiggy20112• 14 years ago

I don't know what qualifies as a "PC" any more these days. I will say that I don't see much future in Windows as the free for all it once was. We can argue the pros and cons of that until the cows come home, my guess is that this is just an inevitable reaction to this horrible Windows software experience of today.

Just about every Windows app I've tried to install in the last couple of years has also tried to fool me into installing some bundled 3rd party crapware.

If you want an open platform , use one that is open by design in other words a Linux distribution.

nivla4• 14 years ago

>Just about every Windows app I've tried to install in the last couple of years has also tried to fool me into installing some bundled 3rd party crapware. If you want an open platform , use one that is open by design in other words a Linux distribution.

and yet the latest Ubuntu comes with Amazon Shopping bundled. I think its becoming a trend to monetize on everything, both open and closed. No necessarily a bad thing but everything seem to merge that way. Think the future might redefine the words "open" and "free".

djhworld• 14 years ago

There are numerous distributions of Linux out there, if you don't like the advertising in Ubuntu, there's nothing stopping you from uninstalling the advertising features or moving to a different distribution

That's the whole point of Linux.

Zenst• 14 years ago

One interface to piss them all off - Metro.

Reason I say that is if you take Metro away what are the issues.

I know anybody who knows how to use a mouse is pretty much of the WTF metro GTFO and that is understandable, but removing that aspect there is nothing realy upsetting that wasn't there before hand. Yes I know developing on microsoft API's (exspecialy anything associated with IE) has been a complete nightmare for many in the past including myself with many a fix being lamented as fixed in the next release only to find the next release entails you having to change other aspects as they are nolonger supported. Thats true with anything were you touch a API outside your control, at least potentualy in one way or another.

If anything by not officialy certifying minecraft for win8 is doing no harm at all for microsoft as it probably runs fine as is and with the processing power nowadays HTML5 becomes more and more appealing to many as apposed to going native.

Is he right to make a stand, yes, it is his right and has to be respected, especialy as he is able to. But personaly the more I look into win8 and metro aside I'm liking it for what it is, there again I'm the sick puppy who preferes vista over win7 and i'm sure no metro fan, but having explorer or an alternative desktop option is not going to be too hard.

Also worth noting that it will be hard to garner true win8 sales once its released as Microsoft have done alot of write off's last quarter (pulling some early like write off of the cost of pressing windows 8 and other gems) so the win8 release quarter can only look better however it does. This with the cheap upgrade and less messing with versions (mini, lite, almost, profesional and ultra or whatever they were). So for many it will be a fiscal no brainer, especialy all those XP installs becoming less supported (unless your a new intel chipset that support XP over Vista, bless).

Maybe Microsft will install a desktop chosser akin to the browser selection, at least that would plicate alot if they had a clear cut choice.

But anything that runs on a closed source OS in any form is gong to be limited, its if those limitations actualy matter that to what your doing is what realy counts and whilst I applaud Notch's stand I do wonder if later on he find some toys missing that needn't of fallen. Especialy when the certification process for a xbox is alot more stringant than any flavour of desktop OS.

mariusmg3• 14 years ago

The friggin Windows Store is optional. Nobody is forcing you to use it if you don't want to. The "platform" is just as open as it was before.

RobAley2• 14 years ago

Ah, thats good. If his users want to use the default Metro platform to launch and play the game, then they can right?. Oh wait...

mariusmg3• 14 years ago

Yes, you actually can. A start screen tile in Windows 8 can launch a both Metro and desktop apps.

brazzy• 14 years ago

The problem is: what if it becomes non-optional in the future? That would be very much in Microsoft's interest, and they have a myriad ways to help it become reality without outright making it mandatory and risking another antitrust case.

lhnz2• 14 years ago

I am behind Notch on this.

A strategic move for Microsoft might be:

(1) Build an eco-system around their app store by providing benefits to users through it (some natural and others artificial).

(2) Impose an increasing level of control over what developers on their system can do.

And then once this power-relationship is established, you do this to maximize profit:

(3) Lock out non app-store members from developing.

(4) Take rightful dictatorial control over the developers in their market. What they can sell, how they promote themselves, what prices they can sell at, whether the money goes directly to them, etc.

(5) Ensure the stable dominance of the big app development studios by negotiating them preferential agreements.

Control over the means of distribution is power. This is the natural progression of people optimising for wealth.

iy565• 14 years ago

That's a horrible strategic move for microsoft. Do you have any idea how many shitty homegrown apps their huge business customers use?

lhnz2• 14 years ago

Actually the existence of shitty business apps is one of my points.

They improve the quality of those 'shitty' homegrown apps for their huge business customers (the cheese is that if you want to be seen in Metro you have to play ball) and then over time they get a cut of sales of all of these apps.

There is an economic impetus for creating a walled garden. Businesses aren't investing money here just for intrinsic benefits. Owning the market is powerful as you can control how other people get their money.

finnw2• 14 years ago

I'm sure there'll be a special edition of Windows for those customers that will allow them to keep their homegrown apps. For only an extra $10000 per core.

ajanuary• 14 years ago

Would be a radical departure from their current strategy of "make sure all the crappy old software works so our customers can continue to pay us money for new releases"

mariusmg3• 14 years ago

Hypocrisy. My least favorite sin.....

Ensorceled• 14 years ago

Okay, here's the real problem that Notch is worried about.

Every game and app that has "Microsoft Certified Safe(TM)" is one more reason the average user will be reluctant to run apps or games that are not "Microsoft Certified Safe(TM)".

They are worried that the next batch of indie games will, instead of running, pop up a window "Microsoft has not certified this app as safe. You can be infected with viruses, or key loggers can steal your bank accounts. Do you still want to run this uncertified application?"

It's not about the big assed buttons.

talmand• 14 years ago

I totally agree.

In the PC gaming community, I'm in that group by the way, that sort of thing will be met with anger and derision because it's already a common thought that Microsoft does nothing but crap on the PC gaming community. Look into Games for Windows Live, or whatever that call that crap now, to see what I mean. Microsoft's presence in the PC gaming space is a joke and they have a long, hard road to go down to get past that. Labeling games that have yet to be certified, at a cost I'm sure, as unsafe and vectors for malware installations will do nothing to alleviate that attitude.

Notch is right, anything that Microsoft does relating to PC games is of concern because it appears they go out of their way to ruin the experience to get you to switch to the "superior gaming experience" of the 360. Where of course they control everything and make money off of other people's work.

Notch: "I'd rather have minecraft not run on win 8 at all than to play along."

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