Apple, Google reportedly in patent truce talks

http://techcrunch.com/2012/08/30/larry-page-tim-cook-patent-chat/

by morisy • 14 years ago

44 48 14 years ago

yequalsx• 14 years ago

I've thought for some time that Microsoft, Apple, and Google would end up forming a patent cartel. At some point they'll each have the patent equivalent of mutually assured destruction. It seems to me that it is in their interest to maintain the present patent system, not sue each other, and then crush any newcomers. It may not happen now but it will happen eventually, I think.

eurleif• 14 years ago

I'd hope that "don't be evil" would preclude Google from participating in a patent cartel to keep newcomers out of the market. Maybe not, though.

sigzero• 14 years ago

Google is just like every other company, don't be fooled by any slick slogans.

dan1234• 14 years ago

They've already formed a consortium to buy kodak's patents[0] so I wouldn't be surprised to see them going further.

[0]http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57495400-92/google-apple-to...

morisy• 14 years ago

I think the existence of non-practicing entities is at least a small counterweight to that. A cartel doesn't do you much good if an NPE can come in and slap you with a multi-million dollar lawsuit. A million dollars here, a million dollars there, and soon enough you start talking about real money.

btilly3• 14 years ago

Actually it does if all of the patents are licensed to a defensive patent pool arranged like http://www.rpxcorp.com/.

But, you ask, what good does that do? Well read the explanation in http://www.rpxcorp.com/index.cfm?pageid=23 for why not to take a wait and see approach. You'll see that they are willing to sell their patents. So if a member is being sued by a troll, RPX can offer a deal where the troll drops the existing lawsuit, and is sold a new patent with a license protecting current (not future!) members of RPX.

How likely are they to actually engage in this kind of behavior? Well RPX is already selling patents to trolls, and thinks that companies will take the risk that they'll care a patent you care about seriously enough that it is listed as a major selling point. If they can increase that risk while serving current clients (eg Google), what reason would they have to hesitate about that deal?

This may be paranoia. But there are 3 patents that were taken out in my name by a previous employer that have wound up in the RPX portfolio. I am somewhat worried that they will eventually wind up being used to sue companies.

rm999• 14 years ago

> It seems to me that it is in their interest to maintain the present patent system

The present system helps and hurts them. All three are large varied companies who can't grow without offering new types of products and services that may infringe on other companies' patents. A well-functioning IP system is in their best interest. Certainly they don't want their current patents to be devalued, but I don't think they want patents to be overvalued either.

mtgx• 14 years ago

So far Google hasn't done that to newcomers. Microsoft and Apple have.

tptacek2• 14 years ago

Apple has sued HTC and Samsung for patent violations. Which "newcomers" have they filed patent suits against?

slantyyz2• 14 years ago

Wouldn't RIM and Nokia belong to this cartel as well?

IIRC, RIM joined in on a group purchase of patents recently.

quesera• 14 years ago

RIM and Nokia are on the dinner menu.

The only question is who pays, and who eats.

zik• 14 years ago

Most large companies are already part of a patent cartel called "RAND". It's pretty much a Mexican stand-off where all the major companies "trade" patent rights with each other rather than being sued into oblivion.

Where Apple went wrong was thinking it could start firing off lawsuits and not get crushed by the rest of the industry. Tim Cook would be smart to negotiate his way out of the mess.

culturestate• 14 years ago

> Where Apple went wrong was thinking it could start firing off lawsuits and not get crushed by the rest of the industry. Tim Cook would be smart to negotiate his way out of the mess.

In what way have they been wrong so far? They seem to piling up victories (Motorola, Samsung, Microsoft licensing) rather than defeats.

rbanffy• 14 years ago

Once again, the Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine proves its value.

loceng• 14 years ago

Will they come after the little guys then?

guimarin• 14 years ago

What was old is new again. All this has happened before, and all this will happen again. Apple, Google, and Microsoft are the new "Big Three" ( Ford, GM, Chrysler ).

ktizo• 14 years ago

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. - Mark Twain

I am a cautiously hopeful. The peace pact won't last without some legislative change, and they probably know it, so we might just see some lobbying for a saner patent law, much in the same way that some alcoholics know not to keep drink in the house.

CamperBob22• 14 years ago

All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

Yep. The last time a global thermonuclear patent war happened, it was even uglier ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Howard_Armstrong ).

indiecore• 14 years ago

Great, back to MAD fought out though the big three crushing small startups.

api• 14 years ago

So now we have an Apple/Google oligopoly on mobile devices and fluid UIs.

dlikhten• 14 years ago

To be honest, I knew this was going to happen. Apple made the lawsuit against samsung, but google has a big BIG bomb to throw: Map Reduce. If google whips out map reduce, apple is screwed. Basically without it apple will be VERY hard pressed to do business, it's techniques are used by many frameworks in the iphone. This would be the equivalent of the US throwing the a-bomb on japan. Apple being japan.

Apple, with googarolla's lawsuit, may have actually realized just how big of a bear they hit.

Now, I sure hope the dispute ends, BUT as yequalsx points out this is a dangerous slope. While I don't believe they will form a patent cartel, a 4th party trying to create a new mobile os will be in danger. While google won't sue, Applesoft might.

Steko6• 14 years ago

The whole "patents kill new entrants" idea has kind of been exploded by the fact that two companies that didn't make phone OS's 6 years ago and didn't have a lot of mobile IP now have close to 90% of the market.

djloche• 14 years ago

Apple bought up several companies that did have relevant patents and technology. Google did the same thing.

In the age of nuclear patents, you either have to have tons of money to license patents, buy companies that own patents, or successfully be granted patents.

CamperBob22• 14 years ago

OK, fine. "Patents kill new entrants who don't have multibillion-dollar war chests." Does that work better?

fpgeek• 14 years ago

Phones have become more and more like computers over those 6 years (and this trend was obvious before that). Apple isn't a newcomer to the computer market (and their earlier history is serving them well - many of the patents they're using aggressively come from the 90s).

On the other hand, Google is a relative newcomer and it has been an issue for them (so much so that they eventually decided to buy one of the older players for their patents).

spacemanaki2• 14 years ago

> it's techniques are used by many frameworks in the iphone.

Can you elaborate, or point to some further reading? I don't know that much about MapReduce or the iPhone, and I definitely don't know what kinds of patent Google holds related to MapReduce, but isn't MapReduce a framework for breaking up work to be done in a distributed fashion and then collating results? Is anything like that actually used in the iPhone?

I know what the functions "map" and "reduce" do, but those weren't invented by Google, and MR is only kind of related to them, from what I've read.

spiralpolitik• 14 years ago

The concepts that MapReduce uses were being discussed at least as early as the 90s. My parallel programming module in 1995 had a section on parallelizing programs using map and reduce functions so there is enough prior art on the concepts to make any patent defense on the general concepts difficult if not impossible.

nl• 14 years ago

Google has a lot of other patents Apple would be more worried about that Map/Reduce.

I'm not aware of any use at all of Map/Reduce in the iPhone(!)

tomkit• 14 years ago

So much for "thermonuclear war"

Apple, Google reportedly in patent truce talks

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