InitWare, a portable systemd fork running on BSDs and Linux

by sunshine-o • 1 year ago

167 113 1 year ago

This actually is kind of cool imo. There are things I like about systemd, and things I don’t. And this seems to fit much more closely around the things liked. Wish I had the time to play more with it on Linux. Would love to see Debian switch to something like this. Always felt like Debian was stuck between “all in” or “go without”. This would have been a nice middle ground choice to have had back in those days.

ape4• 1 year ago

Yeah, I thought systemd relied very heavily on Linux-native things like cgroups.

zokier• 1 year ago

They implemented their own cgroups-like thing with fuse https://github.com/InitWare/CGrpFS

netbsdusers3• 1 year ago

Systemd uses groups for two things: for tracking processes other than direct children of the service manager, and for imposing resource limitations. Both can be done with other mechanisms, like kqueue's EVFILT_PROC and login classes respectively. But my experience in any case was that hacking up systemd to build and run under BSD it didn't need cgroups at all for basic running. Supervision of `Type=simple` and `oneshot` services worked fine. It wasn't particularly surprising to see this as cgroups really aren't ideal as a tracking mechanism - under cgroups v1, you only had a "cgroup empty" notification available as far as tracking the lifetime of processes within a cgroup, and even that was unreliable and could be left undelivered! So systemd used them to augment a more traditional process supervisor. That's why Pottering insisted on having it be PID 1, and got subreapers added to Linux for the per user systemd instances so that they could get the more traditional SIGCHLD based notification of process exits.

sunshine-o2• 1 year ago

This is what I was wondering when I searched and found this project: was systemd designed in a way it would inevitably leave behind the BSDs?

Because we always assume the BSDs rejected systemd but it might just be that they were put in a situation where they had no choice.

cf100clunk6• 1 year ago

Always felt like Debian was stuck between “all in” or “go without”

Debian can be configured at installation to go ''all in'' with systemd or ''go without'' if you prefer. The latter option pretty well mooted the purpose of the Devuan spinoff. In the Bullseye version it is possible to change a running system from using systemd to sysvinit or OpenRC.

I agree about seeing how Debian reacts to how InitWare develops from alpha.

jefurii• 1 year ago

Interesting... here's a good writeup on one way to do it: https://lecorbeausvault.wordpress.com/2022/02/07/debian-swit...

yuriks• 1 year ago

The repo has had 3 commits in the last 4 years or so. I don't think it's going to get developed from alpha unless something suddenly changes.

markstos2• 1 year ago

Yes, I much prefer this more nuanced take of "here's some things I like about systemd and here's some things I don't" then the blanket "everything about systemd sucks" feedback.

I wish this project well. I hope it improves compatibility with BSDs for more projects.

skyyler2• 1 year ago

"everything about systemd sucks" people generally don't understand the problems that systemd is attempting to remediate, in my experience. Just repeating dogma that they heard someone they consider cool say.

wkat42427• 1 year ago

I wish this project well. I hope it improves compatibility with BSDs for more projects.

I don't think BSD compatibility is held back by its init system. It's more drivers that are the issue.

throw0101c• 1 year ago

Perhaps worth noting some differences:

* https://github.com/InitWare/InitWare/wiki/Dropped-components

LinuxBender2• 1 year ago

This is a very reasonable list especially resolved. To their point DNS is handled very well by Unbound.

dontlaugh• 1 year ago

It’s a pity macOS’s launchd couldn’t be adapted to Linux. It was an inspiration for systemd, so we might have had a single modern init for all common unix machines.

freedomben• 1 year ago

Yeah, I remember that being discussed pretty heavily in the early days of systemd (especially the socket activation model & parallelization) but (IIRC) there were some concerns about how it would integrate with the rest of the linux world which did things a lot differently than Mac OS, especially in the server space where Linux has to be near-universal with nearly any conceivable application running on top of it. That definitely smells to me like a subjective determination and there were people at the time who disagreed with that analysis, so I'm not presenting it as fact, just my recollection of the winning argument(s) at the time.

Edit: Yes, I looked at the original "Rethinking PID 1" post and that seems to be the case[1]

[1] https://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html

egorfine• 1 year ago

I am managing a fleet of server-side macs for rendering purposes and launchd is one of the major PITA. It's horrible. A single output saying "I/O error" for any error, including typos in plist files adds to the pain.

wpm3• 1 year ago

Don't worry, there's `launchctl error` where you can get oh goddamn it it just prints the same useless fucking error

amarshall• 1 year ago

launchd’s ergonomics as a user are quite terrible, though. `start`? No…`kickstart`? No…`enable`? No…`load`? No…`bootstrap`? Maybe. I honestly don’t know. But either way, now is it the file path, the service name, or the fully-qualified name I need…?

wpm3• 1 year ago

Launchd 2.0 changed the syntax for the launchctl commands (and made it closed source as it now heavily relies on XPC.Framework). The man page for launchctl lays it all out. Load and unload became "bootstrap" and "bootout". Start became kickstart. As far as I can remember enable/disable are still the verbs, though in order to see the status of jobs' "enablement" you have to use the poorly named "print-disabled". Though the latter only matters for jobs that can actually be disabled, ie, any that have the "Disabled" key set to true in their plist file. By default, jobs in the various LaunchAgents or LaunchDaemons directories are always enabled and always loaded at login or boot respectively.

I literally teach people how to use launchctl every other week. I've found it's unituitive for learners because init systems tend to be unintuitive because there is a lot of hidden action and state going on. It wasn't until I started using it on my own I could develop some instinct for it. Personally, I don't find launchd anything but more ergonomic than systemd. A few man pages and some experimentation and you're at least crawling.

Not to say it couldn't be improved; I'd love to know why a failed bootstrap can't call plutil to at least lint the goddamn plist to notify of basic formatting issues instead of printing the same useless error for everything under the sun. "Error 5: Input/Output error" might as well just be an exit status of 5 for all the help it gives me.

6SixTy• 1 year ago

Kind of the main issue doing that is that Apple developed launchd behind closed doors, releasing periodically to open source. That kind of environment doesn't exactly inspire confidence that launchd on Linux could remain in sync with the main branch for very long nor that Apple will play nice with FOSS devs.

egberts12• 1 year ago

Shoot. Almost there, at least for us cybersecurity-minded folks.

A need for a default-deny-all and then select what a process needs is the better security granularity.

This default-ALLOW-all is too problematic for today's (and future) security needs.

Cuts down on the compliance paperworks too.

westurner2• 1 year ago

DAC: Discretionary Access Control: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discretionary_access_control :

The controls are discretionary in the sense that a subject with a certain access permission is capable of passing that permission (perhaps indirectly) on to any other subject (unless restrained by mandatory access control).

Which permissions and authorizations can be delegated?

DAC is the out of the box SELinux configuration for most Linux distros; some processes are confined, but if the process executable does not have the necessary extended filesystem attribute labels the process runs unconfined; default allow all.

You can see which processes are confined with SELinux contexts with `ps -Z`.

MAC is default deny all;

MAC: Mandatory Access Control: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_access_control

egberts12• 1 year ago

Biggest problem is the use of a SELinux compiler into components understood only by SELinux engine.

Does not help when the SELinux source text file is not buildable by function/procedure axiom: it is at its grittiest granularity, which ironically is the best kind of security, but only if composed by the most savviest SELinux system admins.

Often requires full knowledge of any static/dynamic libraries and any additional dynamic libraries it calls and its resource usages.

Additional frontend UI will be required to proactively determine suitability with those dynamic libraries before any ease of SELinux deployment.

For now, it is a trial and error in part on those intermediate system admins or younger.

Ericson2314• 1 year ago

https://github.com/nixos-bsd/nixbsd This is a very cool project that I hope will get upstreamed into NixOS proper, eventually.

I always thought InitWare would be good for that. See https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/26850 --- we've been discussing this before NixBSD existed, even!

actionfromafar• 1 year ago

This is great!

LinuxBender2• 1 year ago

This is an impressive project especially considering there are only 4 contributors. In my opinion this should have existed prior to systemd as it is more modular and very much optional "The Suite may run either as an init system or as an auxiliary service management system under another init system." This would have been a much better direction to go on Redhat in my opinion. I might still be using CentOS or one of the forks had systemd gone this direction. Just a personal preference of course but this does not feel forced and does not appear to commandeer functionality that should not be in the init process. It's also interesting to see it implemented in Alpine Linux already though I do not see it in the edge repo guess I have to build it. I use Alpine for all my VM and bare metal servers. This may be worth tinkering with. After this is extensively battle hardened I would like to see this as an installation option in Alpine, perhaps by setting a variable much like other installation options. There are also some interesting notes in Myths and Truths [1]

I hope they are still actively developing this. last 5 commit dates which appear low for an alpha. Maybe we need to contribute to this or raise funding.

    Date:   Fri Aug 16 18:55:06 2024 +0100
    Date:   Mon Aug 12 22:33:49 2024 +0200
    Date:   Tue Feb 1 12:31:57 2022 +0000
    Date:   Tue Feb 1 12:31:42 2022 +0000
    Date:   Thu Dec 2 18:43:39 2021 +0000

[1] - https://github.com/InitWare/InitWare/wiki/Myths-and-Truths

classichasclass• 1 year ago

The part I'm particularly impressed with is what they determined was better to leave out ( https://github.com/InitWare/InitWare/wiki/Dropped-components ), especially the crypto and DNS portions which they quite reasonably determined they were insufficiently skilled to maintain (and modules that could be catastrophically damaging if you got them wrong). That's simply ample prudence and speaks well of the project.

cf100clunk6• 1 year ago

I too appreciated that they readily stepped back from reinventing a bunch of wheels. Doing it with humility adds a bit of polish to their project.

cf100clunk6• 1 year ago

I hope they are still actively developing this. last 5 commit dates which appear low for an alpha. Maybe we need to contribute to this or raise funding.

This well-trending HN story is a great boost, I'm sure. There is clearly an interest.

donnachangstein4• 1 year ago

Writing software specifically for the BSDs then licensing it LGPL is like trying to sell them chilled, bottled poison from a roadside stand. What were they thinking?

That said, this sounds like what systemd should have been: a service control manager and nothing more, before they got a thirst for power and wanted to control any and every thing about the system.

But one of those already exists, it's called launchd, as long as you don't mind XML vs Windows INI syntax.

evanphx• 1 year ago

Agree and so I went looking and here is the reason: https://github.com/InitWare/InitWare/commit/3ee721035525dbb1....

They started with a specific version of systemd and have been mutating it since then, so the whole this is "tainted" with LGPL now.

WD-422• 1 year ago

Because it’s a fork of systemd which is GPL. So, working as intended. Sorry Apple, you’ll have to keep using your own init system.

larusso2• 1 year ago

What is a fork of systemd? launchd? My understanding was that systemd was inspired by launchd.

renewedrebecca• 1 year ago

Something tells me Apple is not remotely interested in systemd.

launchd, however works fine.

wpm3• 1 year ago

I'll take the well documented (man launchd.plist) XML property list (well, XML rendered, they're usually in binary) any day over some flat unstructured nonsense. I loathe INI syntax.

squiggleblaz• 1 year ago

In case someone gets the misapprehension that there is a contrast between systemd and launchd in terms of the "well documented" attribution, systemd configuration is also well documented e.g. man systemd.timer etc. I didn't know if launchd has an equivalent of timers, but it does and I've just read `man launchd.plist` "StartCalendarInterval" and compared it with `man systemd.timer` "OnCalendar". I would have said they're about equal. Launchd is more concise, but systemd talks a lot about the interactions with other settings and edge cases.

As for ini vs xml, I've generally found xml is a crueller syntax for humans than ini. At the time I started using systemd, it was a bit funny - the last time I'd been editing ini files was on Windows 3.11. But I think ini and toml are now once again reasonably common so I forgot about how out of place it felt at the time.

wkat42427• 1 year ago

Good, that will stop it from coming to BSD :) I really don't want it.

It's not systemd per se that I hate, I just really have an issue with Linux distros constantly changing stuff around to solve issues that I don't have. Another one is the move away from ifconfig. So I have to learn new stuff just for the sake of it.

This is the main reason I went for BSD, they have a more traditionalist outlook.

If they do come up with a new init system I expect it to be fully tailored to take advantage of BSD's own unique properties and not something tagging a long "because everyone else uses it". Especially not Linux because BSD is not Linux and we don't want it to be. Otherwise we would have used Linux in the first place.

exceptione2• 1 year ago

The list of dropped components is quite large. The cryptsetup, cryptenroll, unified kernel images, kernel signing and systemd-boot work nicely together.

I think Systemd has a view that those things should reliably work together. I do not fancy a revival of the past where the user has to cobble a mesh of hopefully compatible libraries to achieve the same, taking weeks to study the Arch manual and resolving tons of gotcha's, all to be broken by next week's update.

The integration of all this stuff is now actively under test and maintenance with systemd.

And yes, the mentioned services also have an impact on the scope of service managing. Because if you have a unit that depends on a disk that needs to be unencrypted, this has to be resolved somehow in the right time.

I personally have had no need for systemd-resolved, but I think for *desktop* the list of droppable components is not large.

So maybe we should first have a conversation about the *desktop* vs *container-os* purpose?

udev40964• 1 year ago

systemd has definitely made huge improvements to boot security which not a lot of "systemd haters" see. this is a great post from lennart: https://0pointer.de/blog/brave-new-trusted-boot-world.html

donnachangstein4• 1 year ago

Most 'systemd haters' see boot security as unnecessary, or a toy no one would use, and that UEFI secure boot is a conspiracy orchestrated by Microsoft.

It fits the personality profile of not wanting to learn new things. After all, we didn't need it in 2002, so why do we need it now?

There is no fixing these people, so it doesn't make sense expending energy convincing them.

immibis4• 1 year ago

The problem with boot security is that the computer has no way to know its owner from someone who isn't its owner. All it can go on is who was there first. Which, you guessed it, was Lenovo.

I have no problem with secure boot as a concept but I don't know how to implement it so it can't be used to lock you out of your own computer. And an implementation which allows that is worse than no implementation.

swe02• 1 year ago

As someone who uses systemd, "boot security" is pointless. If someone has enough access to your hardware to try booting a different kernel, they have time to load a signed shim that passes secure boot and launches unsigned code.

The only boot security real users need is disk encryption.

badgersnake• 1 year ago

My cryptenroll is currently broken by the latest system update (I think it was a bios update). It’s better, but I’m not sure it’s good.

DrillShopper2• 1 year ago

The cryptsetup, cryptenroll, unified kernel images, kernel signing and systemd-boot work nicely together.

This has not been my experience across Debian and Arch

mattpallissard• 1 year ago

Arch user here. These things work much nicer than any of the previous alternatives. Sure, kernel signing is a bit of a mess, but that's more of a product of how key-signing at a low-level works than anything. Cryptsetup, cryptenroll, unified kernel images, and systemd-boot worked for me out of box.

donnachangstein4• 1 year ago

That's because Debian 'stable' has a half-assed implementation of systemd, frozen in time on some ancient version. So you are stuck waiting years between upgrades. Bookworm finally supports the crypto functions.

Arch OTOH was where these functions first worked out of the box.

Timber-65392• 1 year ago

Am on Arch and I use them with unattended boot(TPM) and they work flawlessly.

exabrial• 1 year ago

somehow they missed journal though...

duskwuff• 1 year ago

The list of dropped components is quite large. The cryptsetup, cryptenroll, unified kernel images, kernel signing and systemd-boot work nicely together.

These are also all components which would be extremely difficult to make portable - they require tight integration with the kernel and its boot process. I can't imagine how you'd implement them in a portable fashion, short of either making changes to the kernel on one or both operating systems, or implementing a complex set of shims to make them present similar interfaces. Either one of those options would be a sizable project on its own - I can't fault the developer from shying away.

exceptione2• 1 year ago

Good point. But it seems that it leaves you a choice of something that is either portable or feature-rich.

It all depends on the purpose of the fork. If it is there to just provide the common service layer for applications in order to make applications portable, I could see a fork being valuable.

udev40964• 1 year ago

I have been using supervisord (https://github.com/Supervisor/supervisor) on alpine and it works great for running different daemon processes. It's lightweight and hasn't ever crashed, highly recommended!

ConanRus• 1 year ago

yeah all we need is another systemd

Vilian3• 1 year ago

the advantage of systemd is the company backing, almost noone gonna donate for their init system, or their timezone system, or the network etc.., donating to their desktop enviroment is hard enough, but because all of that is inside systemd, with company backing, it's a good tradeoff, and people can donate directly to all the project instead of only one software

matu3ba• 1 year ago

How does it compare to dinit, which is usable in Linuxes, BSDs and default used by Chimera Linux? The goals look identical, see Introduction at https://github.com/davmac314/dinit.

WD-422• 1 year ago

This project has barely seen a commit in the last 4 years.

betimsl• 1 year ago

Uhoh! -- The virus just spread a litl more!

foresto• 1 year ago

I find the Dropped Components section encouraging. It has me imagining this project as a way to supplant systemd on Debian-based systems, for a compatible init system without the endless meddling and overreach that come with Poettering's systemd. That would be lovely.

(I won't spend my time detailing all my reasons for disliking systemd, but I have previously shared a small taste of them...)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40217144

ajross• 1 year ago

Yeah... I wouldn't dare touch this. Probably the worst possible thing to happen to systemd would be a fork. It's an extremely complicated suite of software operating at a maximally exposed security context, and it's all but guaranteed that the small cadre of volunteers doing what amounts to a *BSD port aren't going to understand it deeply enough.

Pick the parts you want in your BSD and clone it. Don't port.

wkat42427• 1 year ago

Trust me we in BSD don't want it anyway. If we wanted Linuxisms we would have used... Linux.

It's not just systemd that is a linuxism, but it relies heavily on other linuxisms like dbus. Which does work on BSD, sure. But it shouldn't be part of the core system which an init daemon obviously is.

pkkm• 1 year ago

Could someone who's more familiar with this project explain the advantages? To me, the main advantages of systemd are

1) It enables better separation of concerns, Twelve-Factor App style. For example, user-installed programs no longer need to connect to a logging daemon or execute a complex daemonization dance [1]. They can just run like a normal command-line program and dump logs to stderr.

2) It cuts down on integration problems, shell script glue, and the amount of different config syntaxes you have to know. Its architecture is modular with over 100 different binaries, so you can still pick-and-choose components and do privilege separation, but because these components are all coming from the same vendor, you know they're going to work well together.

3) It can do certain things far more reliably because it's willing to use Linux-specific APIs. For example, thanks to cgroups v2, it can supervise a process correctly no matter what kind of weird forking strategy the process is using.

Since this project is intended to be compatible across Unix-like systems, it won't be able to use Linux-specific APIs, so advantage 3 is gone. It looks like it dropped many components of systemd, so advantage 2 is partially gone too. Is this project just about getting some cross-cutting concerns into the init system and having better scheduling of service startup?

[1] https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/daem...

wkat42427• 1 year ago

I'm running FreeBSD but I'm not exactly waiting for this to be included there, especially the way it was done on Linux (as the only option without any fallback)

What I like about FreeBSD is the rc.local idea which is a bit like Nix.

vermaden• 1 year ago

As FreeBSD UNIX user and sysadmin for about 20 years now - FreeBSD importing some systemd(1) fork is the LAST thing I want to see in the FreeBSD land.

In other words - to make it simple - get the fuck out of my lawn with that shit.

InitWare, a portable systemd fork running on BSDs and Linux

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