When Jorge Luis Borges met one of the founders of AI

https://resobscura.substack.com/p/when-jorge-luis-borges-met-one-of

by benbreen • 1 year ago

167 61 1 year ago

resobscura.substack.com

aorloff• 1 year ago

https://philosophy.as.uky.edu/sites/default/files/The%20Libr...

viccis3• 1 year ago

If anyone here hasn't read Borges, I'd strongly recommend him. Pretty much everything he wrote was short, <20 pages, and so it's really easy to sit down and read one of his stories over a lunch break. The common recommendation would be to try out Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius and see if you like it. If so, it's part of Labyrinths, which is (in my opinion) his best collection of short stories. The best edition in English is probably Penguin's Collected Fictions.

Regarding the content of this interview:

If you compiled an enormous dataset of everything Borges read, and combined it with an exquisitely sensitive record of every sensory experience he ever had, could you create a Borges LLM?

This is my Kantian way of thinking about epistemology, but I don't think that LLMs can create synthetic a priori knowledge. Such knowledge would be necessary to create Borges out of a world without Borges.

In this interview, Simon's view feels much more like the way Hume viewed people as mechanical "bundles of sensations" rather than possessing a transcendent "self". This led to his philosophical skepticism, which was (and still is I guess) a philosophical dead end for a lot of people. I think such epistemological skepticism is accurate when applied to machines, at least until some way of creating synthetic a priori knowledge is established (Kant did so with categories for humans, what would the LLM version of this be?)

kunzhi• 1 year ago

Did you ever read House of Leaves?

7thaccount2• 1 year ago

I've tried, but never made it all the way through. Cool to realize the author's sister (Poe) made a hit song "Haunted" when inspired by the same house iirc. There's my random fact of the day.

cvz• 1 year ago

Tlön is one of my favorite short stories. Weirdly (and perhaps appropriately) that's despite being unable to remember basically anything about it once I've finished reading.

thrance• 1 year ago

Highly recommend his Fictions too. Grabbed a worn copy for 1€ on the street months ago, and I still think about Uqbar from time to time.

Lerc2• 1 year ago

but I don't think that LLMs can create synthetic a priori knowledge.

Do you think that a LLM has the ability to identify a new a priori knowledge?

It seems like it would be a lower threshold to meet but If you combine that with a stochastic process then it seems inevitable that it would be able to ruminate until it came up with new a priori knowledge.

viccis3• 1 year ago

I've said this in another comment but an example would be to train an LLM on a corpus with ALL mathematic content removed. Nothing at all. Then ask it what the shortest distance between two points is. That's an example of synthetic a priori knowledge.

f1shy2• 1 year ago

Pretty much everything he wrote was short, <20 pages, and so it's really easy to sit down and read one of his stories over a lunch break.

Yes, his writings are short, but man they are dense!

To anyone who cares, do this exercise: read short story by Borges, probably the shorter the better. Then go ahead say, next day, and try to write it down again in your own words. I tried a couple of times, and I ended with at least twice the number of pages. Amazing.

viccis3• 1 year ago

There's definitely a Pierre Menard joke in here somewhere

frank20022• 1 year ago

Reading Borges is anything but easy. It requires a certain state of mind. I myself would pick Cortazar over Borges any day, buy I have appreciated some of his writings.

aktau• 1 year ago

I have the opposite experience. I find Cortazar impenetrable, but the Borges stories "speak to me".

flobosg• 1 year ago

I first encountered Borges in high school, reading “The House of Asterion” as an assignment. Probably not one of his most well known short stories, but I would still recommend it.

Kiln6125• 1 year ago

Somewhat relevant to this overall conversation is "pierre menard author of the quixote". Which takes the concept of death of the author in an amusing direction.

lou1306• 1 year ago

Starting with TUOT is definitely an interesting suggestion! I think most people would recommend The Library of Babel or The Garden of Forking Paths as a first read. But TUOT is probably my favourite, and a very apt recommendation for a post-truth world.

DontchaKnowit• 1 year ago

I found Labyrinths to be almost unreadably boring. The stories were jusy kinda like.... okay whats the point? Maybe its better in spanish?

integralof5y• 1 year ago

Borges and Herbert Simons are two great minds, but their conversation is not deep since is mostly shared view about the meaning of human and machine intelligence. Today, with LLMs we have a tool to explore the relation between intelligence and language, between number of parameters, neural nets architectures and much more. So that conversation give us no new insight but is delightful to share time with such great people.

karaterobot• 1 year ago

If you compiled an enormous dataset of everything Borges read, and combined it with an exquisitely sensitive record of every sensory experience he ever had, could you create a Borges LLM?

Hmm, what if you could recreate, word-for-word, the great works of an author like Borges (or, say, Cervantes) by so thoroughly understanding their life that the words themselves came out of you, not memorized and recapitulated, but naturally and unbidden? What an interesting idea for a story, maybe an LLM will be able to write that one day.

uoaei• 1 year ago

This reads exactly like the plot of a story Borges might write, maybe someone more familiar with his ouevre can shine a light on which stories of his touch on this kind of theme.

theobreuerweil• 1 year ago

I think the comment is referring to “Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote”.

jhedwards• 1 year ago

There already is a story like that in The Cyberiad by Stanislaw Lem. One of the robot characters in the book decides to make a poet robot. They reason that a poet is "programmed" by their culture, and a culture is programmed by the previous culture, so the robot has to simulate the evolution of the world from the beginning of time in order to produce the AI poet. It's a wonderful and hilarious story.

QuesnayJr• 1 year ago

The joke the previous comment is making is that Borges already wrote that story. "Pierre Menard, the Author of the Quixote."

awithrow• 1 year ago

It could be that Lem was influenced by Borges? The original poster is referencing a specific Borges short story called "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote" which he published in 1939. It influenced a number of other notable authors

raminism• 1 year ago

ChatGPT, Author of "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote"

kjellsbells• 1 year ago

I see what you did there...should your username be Pierre Menard, perhaps?

jl6• 1 year ago

Hofstadter should have written Gödel, Escher, Bach, Borges.

I wrote about the connection between Borges, AI, Wikipedia, Kafka (the messaging system, not the author), GPUs, and cryptography in the small print on page 7 of this:

https://lab6.com/4#page=7

ecocentrik2• 1 year ago

Hofstadter was defiantly a fan of Borges' work. https://themindi.blogspot.com/2007/02/chapter-1-borges-and-i...

kragen• 1 year ago

What, when did he stop being so?

hybrid_study• 1 year ago

you beat me to this

kouru2252• 1 year ago

I’m a huge fan of his short story Funes the Memorious. Link: https://ia801405.us.archive.org/10/items/HeliganSecretsOfThe...

f1shy2• 1 year ago

Which is in Borges words "a long allegory of insomnia" :)

kouru2252• 1 year ago

... Interesting... I have a tendency to not sleep...

But mostly I like it for it's obsession over the deluge of information that we sift through on a daily basis. Borges perfectly described this issue a decade before Shannon would invent the concept of the bit and provide the foundation for the cognitive revolution

mentalgear• 1 year ago

Is there an audio file of this interview? I'd prefer listening to the original (in the background).

gwern2• 1 year ago

I see no hint of an audio recording having been made, much less surviving & digitized, in the original article's description: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-the-histo... It's too detailed to be retroactive notes by Simon or Borges, so I would guess Borges's secretary or a student simply transcribed it as they went.

benbreen2• 1 year ago

Gwern and others who have dug into it this far might be interested by this footnote in the Crespo article: "I have tried to lay my hands on the original version of the conversation, as I am sure Simon did, too. I contacted Gabriel Zadunaisky, who, as the article explains, participated in the meeting. He is a professional translator. I asked him for the original version, and he replied on WhatsApp: 'Mr. Crespo: I am very sick. Unfortunately, I am unable to provide you with the information requested.' My hypothesis is that Zadunaisky translated the conversation directly from the recorded version and that this original version has been lost."

My read is that most likely, it was recorded on an old school reel-to-reel tape recorder. It's entirely possible that the tapes are still sitting on a shelf somewhere in Argentina, though the chances of actually tracking them down are pretty low. I worked with some reel-to-reel tapes that Alan Ginsberg made (now held at Stanford) in the mid-60s (including one where he is talking to Bob Dylan!) and they held up pretty well. Had to use audio editing software to remove tape hiss, but they were not as badly preserved as I expected.

mrpsbrk• 1 year ago

This seems to be the version published in an Argentinian magazine:

https://borgestodoelanio.blogspot.com/2017/05/jorge-luis-bor...

1010082• 1 year ago

Borges is totally recommended, of course, but after reading him in the original language I think his English translations lack the poetry and music of his writings. For once I am happy Spanish is my first language.

theshaper3• 1 year ago

Hey! Opino lo mismo!

(I agree!)

jtmoulia• 1 year ago

The last few months I've been picking up Spanish language editions of Borges's short stories and poems from used book stores. Two decades ago during school I took two years of Spanish, so reading native Borges would be way beyond my comprehension.

With AI tools, though, I can "read" Borges in his native language: with my phone + OCR + translate I have an English language companion. Or, using the voice interface I can try narrating the Spanish text and ask clarifying questions whenever I'm confused.

An author like Borges makes it well worth the extra effort. And, his puzzles often involve language, so the extra layer of mental translation can mirror the work itself, e.g. in his poem La luna [1]. (though, I envy your native Spanish)

1. https://www.gaceta.unam.mx/la-luna-un-poema-de-borges/

tgv• 1 year ago

My Spanish is more advanced (I was fluent in everyday Spanish, not so much in the more formal use), and I'm reading El Aleph now. It sure takes quite some effort. So many unknown words. And he can turn a phrase quite concisely. But worthwhile.

Izikiel433• 1 year ago

I had the same issue with Stephen King, reading it in English after reading Spanish translations is a different world.

anthk2• 1 year ago

Which editions? The Iberian Spanish ones are not that different in tone/speech to the original English ones.

netsharc• 1 year ago

Considering Borges' stories (some written as if they're reports of actual events), I had to wonder for a long while if this is a "reporting" of a "what if" scenario. It would've been a great homage to him.

6stringmerc• 1 year ago

Fascinating and very accessible read. While in jail I tried to get through Sartre’s “Being and Nothingness” (new translation) and some of the big concepts are echoed in this dialogue.

An LLM trained on Sartre would be amazing because the logical extensions of many of his positions and postulations would be uncomfortable in polite society. Even as a human being he quite frequently espoused concepts counter the grain of civility or notions of what ethics are or should be. An unrestrained, uncensored LLM in this vein could be scary and gut wrenching and yet a good reminder of our less-than-ideal state of refinement of thought and behavior as a species.

tekacs• 1 year ago

I really enjoyed and have recommended to others this very short paper, 'Borges and AI' [1], that was also discussed on HN a couple years back [2].

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.01425

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38693120

jhbadger• 1 year ago

Herb Simon certainly was great, but it is weird that the site uses a picture of what is obviously (despite his face being cut off) Claude Shannon working on his robotic mouse Theseus.

https://www.futilitycloset.com/2018/08/23/shannons-mouse/

david_shi• 1 year ago

"On the back part of the step, toward the right, I saw a small iridescent sphere of almost unbearable brilliance. At first I thought it was revolving; then I realised that this movement was an illusion created by the dizzying world it bounded. The Aleph’s diameter was probably little more than an inch, but all space was there, actual and undiminished. Each thing (a mirror’s face, let us say) was infinite things, since I distinctly saw it from every angle of the universe. I saw the teeming sea; I saw daybreak and nightfall; I saw the multitudes of America; I saw a silvery cobweb in the center of a black pyramid; I saw a splintered labyrinth (it was London); I saw, close up, unending eyes watching themselves in me as in a mirror; I saw all the mirrors on earth and none of them reflected me; I saw in a backyard of Soler Street the same tiles that thirty years before I’d seen in the entrance of a house in Fray Bentos; I saw bunches of grapes, snow, tobacco, lodes of metal, steam; I saw convex equatorial deserts and each one of their grains of sand; I saw a woman in Inverness whom I shall never forget; I saw her tangled hair, her tall figure, I saw the cancer in her breast; I saw a ring of baked mud in a sidewalk, where before there had been a tree; I saw a summer house in Adrogué and a copy of the first English translation of Pliny — Philemon Holland’s — and all at the same time saw each letter on each page (as a boy, I used to marvel that the letters in a closed book did not get scrambled and lost overnight); I saw a sunset in Querétaro that seemed to reflect the colour of a rose in Bengal; I saw my empty bedroom; I saw in a closet in Alkmaar a terrestrial globe between two mirrors that multiplied it endlessly; I saw horses with flowing manes on a shore of the Caspian Sea at dawn; I saw the delicate bone structure of a hand; I saw the survivors of a battle sending out picture postcards; I saw in a showcase in Mirzapur a pack of Spanish playing cards; I saw the slanting shadows of ferns on a greenhouse floor; I saw tigers, pistons, bison, tides, and armies; I saw all the ants on the planet; I saw a Persian astrolabe; I saw in the drawer of a writing table (and the handwriting made me tremble) unbelievable, obscene, detailed letters, which Beatriz had written to Carlos Argentino; I saw a monument I worshipped in the Chacarita cemetery; I saw the rotted dust and bones that had once deliciously been Beatriz Viterbo; I saw the circulation of my own dark blood; I saw the coupling of love and the modification of death; I saw the Aleph from every point and angle, and in the Aleph I saw the earth and in the earth the Aleph and in the Aleph the earth; I saw my own face and my own bowels; I saw your face; and I felt dizzy and wept, for my eyes had seen that secret and conjectured object whose name is common to all men but which no man has looked upon — the unimaginable universe."

1. https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/borgesaleph.pdf

When Jorge Luis Borges met one of the founders of AI

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