Permacomputing

by ngc6677 • 1 year ago

87 37 1 year ago

ThinkBeat• 1 year ago

From the text in the link below, it appears that permacomputing is primarily concerned about lowering how much energy you use on tech, and refurbish and reuse old technology.

https://permacomputing.net/getting_started/

mvdtnz• 1 year ago

I wonder what that has to do with "anarchism, decoloniality, intersectional feminism, post-marxism, degrowth, ecologism".

I don't think I have anything to learn about computing from a website that takes multiple seconds to load plain unstyled text.

makapuf• 1 year ago

Depends on how many joules are needed for that. And maybe you won't learn anything technical from it, but that the intent is laudable and the approach worth knowing/spreading ?

volemo2• 1 year ago

Hmm, it loaded pretty instantly for me and I don't see much bloat in the source. May be you're experiencing the HN effect? :/

lloeki• 1 year ago

Probably the "Properties of permacomputing systems" down this page acts as a a better description of what it aims to be:

https://permacomputing.net/permacomputing/

Lutger• 1 year ago

While that is emphasized, I don't think that really captures it. The idea is to apply permaculture to computation, as has been done with industrial agriculture.

Permaculture is in the first place an ethical or even utopian project, and I'd characterize it as a counter-culture. You can see this reflected in how permacomputing defines itself in opposition to silicon valley: there's a whole page on what they think is wrong with 'Californian ideology'. See https://permacomputing.net/issues/ and https://permacomputing.net/Californian_ideology/.

Permaculture is a design system grounded in ethics, that concerns itself with rethinking a sustainable society inspired by nature. A common trope is the 7 generations rule: how does a design decision today, impact the future of 7 generation down the line? The domain where permaculture is mostly associated with is agricultural systems, but it also has some influence in the built environment. It was never intended to be limited to agriculture. Permacomputing seems to want to extend or apply it to the domain of computing.

Honestly I don't find the idea of extending hardware lifespans the most innovative. I think it is interesting to rethink the whole of computing from the pov of 200, 500 or 1000 years into the future: if we still want to be there and have a good life for all (and do computation), how could that impact decisions on hardware today?

I think a model where we see all current hardware as a 'repository of components and materials' that can be re-composed (not just recycled) is far more interesting than merely extending lifespans. In that model, there is virtually no waste anymore. Everything can be recombined as we discover more valuable ways of putting things together, rather than thrown away, even after a longer time. I'd argue that also mimics the way nature works. Ecosystems are always growing in complexity as life evolves and diversifies, given the right conditions and lack of bottlenecks. There are no static cycles.

Joker_vD• 1 year ago

how does a design decision today, impact the future of 7 generation down the line?

There is literally a) no way to answer that, and b) it probably doesn't even matter. For instance, in 1850 (which is roughly 7 generations ago), the Austrian Empire abolished the customs and tariffs between its Hungarian and Ausrtian pieces. How does it impact us today?

hiAndrewQuinn• 1 year ago

The best way in to permacomputing, imo, continues to be: Get an old used Thinkpad. Put Linux or one of the BSDs on it. Use low-resource options: LDXE, i3wm. Go about your business driving this thing however you want to. Learn to live within its limits.

This is truly the computer as bicycle for the mind.

nehal3m2• 1 year ago

I agree. I flip between Apple's ecosystem and FOSS a few times a year. My wife recently dropped her cracked iPhone SE in the tub so it died. I gave her my 13 mini and decided to challenge myself to switch back to my Thinkpad and Fairphone for at least a year. Since I wouldn't really be needing sync features either I disabled iCloud and moved back offline.

Much simpler, much more in my control. At the end of the day most computers built in the last 10 years don't break a sweat doing the things I need one for. Same for phones. It makes you much more resilient against hardware failure, and if you go through the pain of converting your stuff to open formats you're basically free as a bird.

EndShell6• 1 year ago

Any older business class laptop really. I have an two older Laptops. One is a Dell 6410.

The former has Debian on it with Gnome and I've stuck 8Gb of ram on the machine, slapped in an SSD.

The machine is 14 years old and it can reasonably handle browsing, mail, Youtube, Discord and VSCode. Gnome actually performs better than XFCE or any of the light-weight DE as long as I am using Wayland.

UncleSlacky• 1 year ago

Yes, I use a (librebooted) Dell Latitude e6220 with 8Gb RAM and a 275Gb SSD when travelling, great apart from the low resolution screen.

krige• 1 year ago

Also have a Dell 6410, it's a scrappy little thing. The brushed metal brick aesthetic is pleasing. It's probably time to go full linux on it.

markus_zhang4• 1 year ago

Nowadays I only purchase used mobile workstations. I can get a 32GB Dell under 700 CAD including tax and delivery. It was really a deal.

New laptops are so expensive and unreliable that they might actually break down sonner than my used ones...

aqueueaqueue2• 1 year ago

If I get a new non mac laptop I max out the warranties and accidental damage. Top service level. Then consider that real OG price. Without those extras you have a brick-in-waiting.

Tepix4• 1 year ago

They use a ton of electricity. Probaby not sustainable for most (unless you have lots of solar)

ohgr3• 1 year ago

If you like staying in a post-soviet hostel, that's perfect.

I rather like something comfortable these days, so I'll stick with my M1 MacBook Pro. The creature comforts genuinely make my life better so I'm willing to pay for them.

Tepix4• 1 year ago

I'm using an M1 Macbook myself, but from a Permacomputing standpoint it's rather terrible. Everything is soldered, nothing can be fixed, replaced or expanded.

usrbinbash• 1 year ago

Get an old used Thinkpad. Put Linux or one of the BSDs on it. Use low-resource options: LDXE, i3wm.

And then people use this upcycled, environmentally friendly option to connect to social media, their music provider, 2-3 streaming services, their workplace account, and various AI systems, all of which require datacenters eating up so much energy, that by now we consider building nuclear power plants just for them.

nehal3m2• 1 year ago

Great point. Aside from the energy requirements that also makes you dependent on infrastructure availability. You seem kind of cynical about the tendency to simplify but we have to start somewhere and taking care of your own setup first seems like a good first step. We ought to be mindful of the complexity we're making ourselves dependent on and solving for that in the use cases you mentioned. Most streaming platforms will let you save a local copy, for a start. You can also rip your physical media, or forego using a computer for media consumption altogether (or in permacomputing terms, self-obviate).

But your point stands and from the perspective of permacomputing is indeed a problem.

Tepix4• 1 year ago

Maybe we should challenge ourselves more! Here are the Plan 9 4th edition system requirements:

https://plan9-4th-edition-tutorial.readthedocs.io/en/latest/...

- 90 MHz or greater Intel/ARM 32-bit processor

- 32 MiB of RAM (system memory for physical and viritualized installs)

- SVGA capable of 800x600 screen resolution or greater

- Network connection

- 300 MiB of storage (SD, IDE, SATA, SAS)

- Either a CD/DVD drive or a USB port for booting the installer media

volemo2• 1 year ago

Gotta mention: https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com

california-og• 1 year ago

I highly recommend reading this paper^[0] on permacomputing. It explains the concept in depth.

In this paper, we argue for the potential of permacomputing as a rich framework for exploring creative design constraints building on a long history of applying constraints in art, design and cultural practices.

[0] https://monoskop.org/images/6/6a/Mansoux_Aymeric_et_al_2023_...

moconnor• 1 year ago

The landing page doesn't actually describe what it is. Is it using old chips and writing low level code? Is it open source? You kind of have to define a movement somehow, right?

An example of what a permacomputing solution to a problem vs a traditional one would look like would do a lot of work here. Perhaps where "ପໄଓ -:*´" is...

project2501a• 1 year ago

Lovely. More neo-liberalism in neo-hippy format. The next Burning Man: Save the planet, compute in older hardware.

Detractors: You can't be anti-capitalist without being on the other side. Also, you can't put individual issues above societal issues.

binary132• 1 year ago

I don’t think this concept really needs a brand and manifesto, especially not one that will obviously alienate anyone who isn’t a Marxist, etc., etc., etc. It’s not a tough sell to tell people that maybe the permanent revolution / forced march of planned-obsolescent tech products isn’t a good thing for most people. Slapping a bunch of “COEXIST” bumper stickers on that is a better way to slow it down than to speed it up.

Permacomputing

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