In Jordan, a ‘stunning’ discovery under Petra’s ancient stone

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/petra-tomb-discovered-jordan.html

by aguaviva • 2 years ago

129 75 2 years ago

aguaviva• 2 years ago

Not to get all Indiana Jonesy about it, but 12 skeletons? From right around year 0? And they even show a picture of a weathered, ceramic cup?

The article plays it straight, but I'm pretty sure this = Holy Grail confirmed.

pushupentry1219• 2 years ago

Year 0? I thought Petra was much much older than that.

If year 0 is correct, these people were buried long after Petra was a bustling city then?

kelnos3• 2 years ago

Yeah that bit doesn't pass the smell test. Petra had been around for about 400 years by the time Jesus supposedly held his last supper.

It seems much more likely that these 12 skeletons date back to the earlier days of the city.

(Nitpick: there was no year 0; 1 BC goes right into AD 1. And Jesus' supposed death was around AD 33, not AD 1. Sometimes people think "AD" means "After his Death", but it's really "Anno Domini", or "the year of the/our Lord", when he was supposedly born.)

Telemakhos• 2 years ago

The article says the skeletons date to 400-100 BC, so, no. Year 0 doesn't exist (1 BC is followed directly by AD 1), and the holy grail would have to date from AD 33 or so, because Jesus didn't die in the year of his birth.

auadix• 2 years ago

Romans were like, what is this 0 you're talking about?

SoftTalker• 2 years ago

How accurately can skeletons be dated? Within 100 years? 10 years? a year?

BugsJustFindMe2• 2 years ago

The article says the skeletons date to 400-100 BC...and the holy grail would have to date from AD 33 or so

It says "between 400 B.C. and A.D. 106". That encompasses all relevant dates.

BugsJustFindMe2• 2 years ago

And they even show a picture of a weathered, ceramic cup

A cup that looks a _lot_ like the grail prop from the film.

blackhaz• 2 years ago

It's freaking identical. Definitely Spielberg's games.

skrebbel• 2 years ago

Your comment made my day!

_joel• 2 years ago

They have chosen wisely.

kelnos3• 2 years ago

The cup they show isn't dated; it just says, "An ancient ceramic item discovered at the Treasury site". It's not even clear the cup was discovered during this particular expedition, or where it was found. It could be newer or older, and need not be related to the 12 skeletons.

If the 12 apostles existed, it seems unlikely that they'd all be buried in the same place, in what may have been a "prestigious" tomb. Jesus isn't exactly described as a particularly popular figure in his time when it came to the authorities, and I would expect the 12 apostles would have died at different times, in different places, and wouldn't have been buried together.

The time range is pushing it, too: between 400 BCE and 106 CE, though that's just the roughest of estimates based on when the city was founded and when it was annexed by the Romans, not based on any inspection of the remains. It feels more likely that this tomb was built, used, and sealed up well before Jesus and the disciples/apostles supposedly lived.

Even if we assume the religious fairy tales are true, this doesn't pass the smell test: it's vanishingly unlikely that these are the remains of those men, or that any of this is related to the Holy Grail mythology.

chasil• 2 years ago

They are not all buried in the same place. Mark is famously in Venice.

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/where-are-the-12-apostles-no...

rolph• 2 years ago

the 12 apostles existed, not as a one-off, but a common practice. there is numerological signifigance to 12, that precedes christianity.

derdi2• 2 years ago

The cup they show isn't even a cup. It looks more like the top part of a broken bottle, photographed upside down. The narrow end looks too narrow for a cup's base, it would not be very stable.

psunavy03• 2 years ago

Tell me you missed the Indiana Jones joke without telling me you missed the Indiana Jones joke.

The ending of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade used Petra as the outside shot for the ancient temple where the story ended.

analog31• 2 years ago

I think it was Martin Luther who said something to the effect that of the 12 apostles, 19 are buried in Germany.

lo_zamoyski• 2 years ago

If the 12 apostles existed

Doubting the existence of the twelve apostles is about the height of obstinate prejudice and special pleading. No serious historian does.

it seems unlikely that they'd all be buried in the same place [...] I would expect the 12 apostles would have died at different times, in different places, and wouldn't have been buried together.

It is common knowledge that they weren't buried in the same place. They were on an evangelical mission and traveled to different places[0]. All of them were martyred, except for John.

Even if we assume the religious fairy tales are true

Sad and unnecessary snark.

[0] https://aleteia.org/2017/07/21/whatever-happened-to-the-twel...

ggambetta• 2 years ago

That's the cup of a carpenter.

0xbadcafebee• 2 years ago

In movie reality, this is definitely the Holy Grail. In real reality (for those not familiar), the grail is a legend invented in the middle ages.

Mistletoe• 2 years ago

And it’s funny how much effort has been expended finding ridiculous items like this and ignoring the message of Jesus or following what he said. Imagine Jesus’ response if you showed him a cup he used or a splinter of the cross he died on. “Okay…” But I get it, humans like relics and totems, I think it is hard coded in our DNA.

mkl3• 2 years ago

The "cup" looks more like the top of a bottle.

sorokod2• 2 years ago

That ground penetrating radar really delivers but what is the stunning part?

parsimo20102• 2 years ago

Finding 12 ancient skeletons in a place that was not previously known as a tomb is pretty stunning. Imagine if you found 12 bodies under your neighborhood bank- people would freak out, and it's not nearly as old as the Petra Treasury.

sorokod2• 2 years ago

Many places we know now as tombs weren't known as such before, that is untill some skeletons were found.

pvaldes• 2 years ago

For some reason, slow people always lie under the big boulder, shaped like mail stamps. Never over the rock.

noneeeed• 2 years ago

For anyone thinking of visitng Petra, try and allow more than a couple of hours. When we went it was for two days, going in and out each day. A lot of people just go down the entry canyon, take a look at the Treasury (the bit in Indiana Jones) and head back. But the site itself is much larger. If you are up for a decent walk there are parts that I thought were much more impressive and interesting up the hills. Some of the scenary around there is stunning.

Also, if you can do down in the evening, that's great too.

Jordan as a whole was a really interesting place to visit.

viewtransform• 2 years ago

For those who cannot travel, the Fall of Civilizations episode 15. The Nabataeans - The Final Days Of Petra has stunning visuals in 4K

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSfFq02pK4s

simple102• 2 years ago

If you go, I can't recommended enough to hike in to Petra from Little Petra (Siq al-Barid). Little Petra is a small caravan stop about 8km away. The hike brings you in through the backside of Petra near the Monastery.

Also explore up the stairs carved in the rocks in Petra. They're somewhat hidden and most tourists do not venture up them. They lead to a sort of rock maze on top of the cliffs overlooking Petra with incredible views. I accidentally got lost up there at dusk and ended up hiking out the Al Siq canyon alone in the dark. It was unlike anything I had ever experienced. The stars and subtle desert night sounds felt like I had entered a time machine. One of those deeply transformative experiences that only occurs when venturing off the beaten path. Fortunately, the guards at the entrance were cool with my accidental trespassing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Petra

roelschroeven• 2 years ago

When you hike in through the backside like that, is there a place where you buy a ticket and/or are scanned for tickets?

When I was there, we went through the official entrance in Wadi Musa, with tickets and all (which I don't mind!). We went early to have the time to make quite a large tour around the whole area, and as far as I could tell it looked like the area was simply open for anyone to hike in or out freely, except through the front entrance. As I said, I don't have any problem with buying a ticket, I'm just wondering if my observations are correct.

moomoo11• 2 years ago

Is it deep inside? I always wondered about the actual site from IJ. Or is it just a front facade?

latchkey• 2 years ago

Machu Picchu is like this. If you take the 3 day hike up the mountain to get there, you see some pretty awesome ruins. I did this in the early 90's and I'm sure the routes / ability has changed by now, but it was really cool back then.

Angkor Wat is the main attraction but it also has interesting nearby ruins as well. Rent a motorbike and get lost on the farming backroads, google maps works pretty well.

polishdude20• 2 years ago

I did the 3 day hike about 8 years ago and I remember the ruins along the way where spectacular mainly due to there being no crowds. Holds a special place in my heart.

dizhn• 2 years ago

Comment sounds like Angkor Wat is in Machu Pichu.

mkl3• 2 years ago

If you're not going in person, it's captured fairly well on Google Streetview: https://www.google.com/maps/@30.322462,35.4515824,2a,90y,259.... Follow the canyon at the right of the view to see many more things.

lofaszvanitt• 2 years ago

Also try the donkey travel agency there ;DD.

KineticLensman• 2 years ago

Jordan as a whole was a really interesting place to visit.

Agree. I really liked Wadi Rum, which is where parts of 'The Martian' and 'Lawrence of Arabia' were filmed. Totally spectacular. When I went, years ago, the capital Amman was also a friendly city to walk around, even for an obvious westerner like myself.

mikhailfranco• 2 years ago

Yes, allow 3 days: main Petra; Little Petra hike into Petra; hike to Aaron's Tomb (Jebel Haroun).

The main site is large, and has strenuous climbs up to the High Altar, Treasury overlook, Acropolis and out to the Monastery. I recommend starting early when the site opens shortly after dawn, before the crowds of mid-morning, and the heat of the afternoon.

Here's the Monastery in the dawn with some poetic musings:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikhailfranco/8579438475/in/al...

From Aaron's Tomb, you can see the Monastery embedded in the side of the huge escarpment (sequence of zoom levels):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikhailfranco/8579748035/in/al...

caycep• 2 years ago

I always try and build Petra in my desert city before the AI in Civ 6!

tiffanyh2• 2 years ago

It's hard not to wonder if this was staged for the tv show "Expedition Unknown", which had an exclusive to film a show at Petra that Discovery Channel has been advertising for months now.

jazzyjackson• 2 years ago

I'm not in the know but is it that terrible for an excavation to be funded by a TV show ? (Provided they don't fabricate anything)

tiffanyh2• 2 years ago

Given that 99% of excavations don't turn up anything of significance, were these artifacts already known to have existed and were just "discovered" on the show as the reveal?

I'm truly not trying to create conspiracy theories, it's just the coincidence of this being found on a tv show seems unbelievable lucky.

In Jordan, a ‘stunning’ discovery under Petra’s ancient stone

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