Japan police: Nearly 4k who died alone at home not found for over a month

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240830_02/

by rntn • 2 years ago

107 217 2 years ago

www3.nhk.or.jp

Is this a symptom of demographic collapse?

If China really shrinks by 300,000,000 over the next 50 years, visiting empty cities filled with mummified remains might be commonplace(economies can’t pivot fast enough to handling such a high death rate per active worker).

datameta• 2 years ago

Not that it nullifies the issue, but automation ought to be assuading their worries.

mensetmanusman8• 2 years ago

Wall-E robots to deal with the dead?

roenxi• 2 years ago

I'd guess the answer to the question is yes (if someone is 70 with no children, it isn't a stretch to see how they might have no visitors for a month).

However industrial societies are very efficient so I don't know what you mean by "can’t pivot fast enough to handling". China could easily handle high death rates per average worker, practically speaking there isn't an upper limit to how many deaths can be handled. Corpses are generally fairly cooperative and theoretically they'll even go away by themselves if left alone. It is caring for old living people that is the hard part.

Qem5• 2 years ago

However industrial societies are very efficient so I don't know what you mean by "can’t pivot fast enough to handling".

I wonder how social norms could change if faced with a very large number of such cases. Perhaps people will relax social norms around mourning. Like, eventually becoming acceptable to have unclaimed bodies bagged and left in the curb to be collected by the same truck that collects municipal solid waste, to be landfilled.

thoroughburro2• 2 years ago

Corpses are generally fairly cooperative and theoretically they'll even go away by themselves if left alone.

This is dangerously incorrect, as India is continuing to discover.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_vulture_crisis

Qem5• 2 years ago

Guess it will become much worse in South Korea, with their 0.7 fertility rate. Many people going single childless today will become lonely elders 30 years from now. It will compound for all the single children, that will have almost no collateral relatives to check on them (no siblings, no nephews/nieces, et cetera).

pj_mukh• 2 years ago

Degrowth IRL.

newzisforsukas4• 2 years ago

economies can’t pivot fast enough to handling such a high death rate per active worker

Why? People have died at relatively faster rates in populations throughout history.

pjc506• 2 years ago

The Siege of Leningrad killed 1.5 million people, roughly half the population of the city, over a period of roughly two years.

karaterobot• 2 years ago

It seems like you're saying that 6 million excess deaths a year in a country has been the norm throughout history, but I don't think that's the case. Even if we just think about it as a percentage of the total population, 300MM into 1.4B is ~21% of total population dead in 50 years, which would be catastrophic for a country's ability to maintain its economy, among other things. It's not exactly as bad as the bubonic plague, but much worse than Covid in any country, and much worse than any wars I can think of, so I think it would have a pretty large effect.

pjc506• 2 years ago

The current population of China in 2024 is 1,425,178,782, a 0.03% decline from 2023. I don't know where you're getting your alarmism from. If you bother to work out deaths per day in your scenario I suspect it's only a fraction of a percent higher.

(People go absolutely bananas about fertility dipping briefly below replacement, as if this isn't a contingent phenomenon that can and will be changed as circumstances and population change)

csomar2• 2 years ago

There is a demographic pyramid. Once the trend sets in, it’s almost impossible to reverse. You can see the pyramid now and get an idea how their population will look like. Current year growth is not informative.

Qem5• 2 years ago

According to UN projections, by 2060 China's population will be shrinking by approximately 15 million people from one year to another. This is a lower bound estimate on the number of deaths/year there by then, as it includes the effect of births partially offsetting deaths. See https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/Popul...

aprilthird202110• 2 years ago

People go bananas about it because reversing below replacement birth rates is extremely difficult, basically has not been done in the modern era, and is one of the things that can lead to our economy and society collapsing, a la Japan.

adammarples• 2 years ago

China dipped below replacement rate over 30 years ago. This means that there are now half as many people even capable of having children than there were then. This is exponential.

csomar2• 2 years ago

Around 25% of china population is rural and working on agricultural. They can lose 300m and be completely unaffected if they succeed to move people around. You only need 1% of the people to feed the 99%.

dzonga• 2 years ago

this is very sad.

we're social animals. have people you check on often. and have some people check in on you often as well.

wickedsight7• 2 years ago

we're social animals

Not all of us are, so it's nearly impossible for this to be completely avoided.

ffsm82• 2 years ago

As a person that has almost no contact with other people beyond the daily stand-up meeting I'm forced into... I kinda have to

press x to doubt

The reason why some people (including myself) avoid social interactions is because of previous interactions that likely happened in their teens. But it's still objectively a very unhealthy thing. It's like being overweight, drinking alcohol or smoking. It's fine, but definitely not healthy.

So I have to concur: we're social animals, even if some of us choose to avoid social interactions. Just like some people succumb to other unhealthy habits

Aaargh20318• 2 years ago

I always feel hopeful when I read stories like this. It’s apparently still possible to live a life where no one bothers you for months at a time, even on this overcrowded planet.

dachworker• 2 years ago

What a sick society! Over a month of nobody checking in on their elderly? I doubt all these people were all childless.

pilaf• 2 years ago

That's very quick judgment based on pure speculation. Do you know what the numbers look like for your own country? Are those stats even published?

totetsu• 2 years ago

If someone dies alone at 85, those children could be in their 60s too.

exe347• 2 years ago

not everybody can afford the mental health cost of talking to their parents.

vik0• 2 years ago

Why do so many people online report having poor relationships with their parents? Is this real? I don't know anyone in real life who talks like this about their parents. Am I in a bubble or what?

ToValueFunfetti• 2 years ago

It looks like Japan sees 1.5 million deaths/year, so 4000 deaths in half a year is about 0.5%. So this is outlier data, and it would not be at all surprising if the overwhelming majority of them were childless. Whatever remains really cannot be enough to judge a society by.

xdennis• 2 years ago

This is not just Japan. I've seen two stories in Romania of a village with a single inhabitant: a 70+ year old man. One of them has three dogs. When he dies there might not even be remains to be found.

xenospn2• 2 years ago

You’re thinking of cats. Dogs don’t actually eat the remains of their owners.

thi234234234• 2 years ago

This is happening everywhere, not just Japan.

Brajeshwar• 2 years ago

Japan, both good and bad, is definitely the precursor of the future of our world. It is scary at times.

jl6• 2 years ago

I’ll take it. There are far worse ways to end up than Japan.

voidUpdate• 2 years ago

It depends who you are tbh. AFAIK they have a large problem dealing with mental health, and LGBT rights there aren't as good as a lot of other places. I understand they're getting a bit better about these kinds of things more recently but they've still got a way to go

aprilthird202110• 2 years ago

I think people who say this did not have the misfortune of growing up in a society where there are few jobs that don't pay well and basically your entire existence is to subsidize a much larger class of elderly whose values, desires, etc. always trump your own

missedthecue3• 2 years ago

Japan has only just begun its implosion. Population dropped by about 0.5 million last year but that will 3x within a decade given their population pyramid.

Losing 1-2% of your population per year is catastrophic and exponential.

m463• 2 years ago

Japan is already known for its aging population plus a low birth rate. The article mentions many of them were old, and of course older people have their friends and family die off, and move around less frequently. The low birth rate means fewer connections to a younger generation.

So for japan, and later the world, yeah - this might go up.

brink• 2 years ago

A 401k won't check up on you when you're old and alone, a few good children will. Have kids, and raise them well.

abound2• 2 years ago

I don't think dead people care how long they've been dead before they're found. It's unpleasant to think about dead bodies sitting around, but ultimately not their biggest problem.

If your argument is "have children so someone will check on you when you're old", I'd argue that bringing sentient beings into the world for just that purpose is a bit overkill. Other options include: being part of a strong community, living in some sort of communal place for elderly folk, or even just some sort of basic health monitoring that can alert emergency services if something looks off.

Adopting is also an option if you're really sold on the "sentient beings" thing.

pavel_lishin5• 2 years ago

I don't think dead people care how long they've been dead before they're found. It's unpleasant to think about dead bodies sitting around, but ultimately not their biggest problem.

I think one unspoken assumption is that if someone is checking in with you regularly, they might actually find you before you die, and either call an ambulance to help you, or notice that something might be a problem before it becomes severe.

eloisant• 2 years ago

You're assuming that they died quickly and peacefully.

How many died after breaking their leg and starving alone on their floor?

aprilthird202110• 2 years ago

I think the general argument is have kids so you don't leach off someone else's when you're old and take more from society than you contribute.

pavel_lishin5• 2 years ago

Diversify your portfolio! Don't rely on just your kids, who are likely to move abroad, start families of their own, etc. Make sure you have friends and local people in your community who value your time as well.

whym• 2 years ago

Various businesses provide paid service called 見守りサービス to have someone (or a machine) check up on you. The idea is to detect health emergencies early enough and act on getting help, in case family members and neighbors can't. Not that that is the best option, but at least money can help to some extent.

xenospn2• 2 years ago

Even an automated phone call service to make sure someone picks up. I’m surprised it isn’t a thing.

newzisforsukas4• 2 years ago

Or don't care if no one finds you when you're dead. What does it matter if someone finds you in a day or a month? You are dead.

Not having many close relationships when you die is probably a better net benefit. People are crushed when their parents pass.

dagw• 2 years ago

What does it matter if someone finds you in a day or a month?

People don't always go from fine to dead in an instant. There can be a period of days when you are still alive, but incapable of calling for help. If you were found in that period you wouldn't necessarily have to end up dead.

meesles• 2 years ago

My great aunt had 6 children, and arguably raised them alright. They had all moved on with their lives and she died alone. My grandma and I were the only family that spent even a little time with her.

There is no solution for growing old and dying.

silverquiet3• 2 years ago

Yeah, a lot of people will talk about being afraid of dying alone, but I'm pretty much just afraid of dying. The circumstances of my death are really just a light seasoning compared to the main fare that is the terror of that death itself.

ryzvonusef• 2 years ago

I can't have kids. Dying alone is my fate, nothing I can do about it.

____

It's something I think about a lot. I have siblings and niblings, but I live in a 3rd world country and my goal in life is to escape to some first world country.

If I escape, I will die alone abroad; but while I live, I'll be able to make my life and the life of my loved ones better.

If I stay, I might be able to count on my nephews/nieces to check on me in old age...but depending on how life goes and what the economic conditions are, it's much more likely that...

Not only do I live a terrible life, but when I am old and my siblings dead, my niblings will ignore me, unable to take care of another burden, nor would I want to be such a burden on them.

Which lends me back to option 1: go abroad... then maybe retire back here? But then I would have no connection, and nor would they have one with me.

_____

I'v seen this happen here a lot. A lot of people I know lived their lives in the Gulf... used to a certain standard of living and having barely any connection to the relatives back home.

They educated their kids and sent then to uni in 1st world countries, while they retired to big palatial homes here.

But now they are alone, their kids have no reason to come back after uni to the big 3rd world homes their fathers built... and the relatives here have no connection to the uncle/aunt from the gulf they saw once every three years.

The kids are alone abroad, the parents are alone here. No one wins.

layer83• 2 years ago

You could adopt a child once you live abroad.

fennecfoxy4• 2 years ago

Nah, still don't want kids.

probably_wrong• 2 years ago

I've been trying, but it turns out that finding a woman willing to marry and have children (aka "postpone her career goals") with an introverted immigrant who hates bars is not as straightforward as I thought.

beAbU• 2 years ago

In Ireland there were two stories making the rounds recently of a woman who was only found 2 or 3 months after passing, and another man who was found more than two years after dying.

Ireland has a penchant for derelict buildings (at least where I am). Combine that with unwillingness to impose anything on anyone, and you have a recipe for modern era mummies.

thoroughburro2• 2 years ago

you have a recipe for modern era mummies

Except mummies were respectfully cared for throughout the embalming process. Don’t tar ancient civilizations with our own inhuman neglect of both living and dead.

WillAdams9• 2 years ago

Except it has been found that female mummies usually began the process in a greater state of decomposition than males with the _raison d’être_ being that it discouraged necrophilia on the part of the workers doing the mummification.

StrictDabbler• 2 years ago

A human or animal corpse that was accidentally mummified is still called a mummy. It's a technical term. A lot of mummies are just people who died in a peat bog, desert or ice cave.

Many mummies were also made cruelly rather than respectfully. The Maori mummified the fallen as trophies of war. The Inca would leave sacrifices to be mummified by the mountain ice.

So yes, somebody who dies in a derelict building and dries out is a mummy.

lynx23• 2 years ago

It took roughly 3 weeks until the death of my neighbor was finally detected. Granted, it smelled a little odd to my rather non-functional nose, but the staircase of this house has smelled of weird a lot while we had this old lady with the bladder control issues. Long story short, his immediate neighbor finally called the police since the smell seeped into her apartment. Why did it take so long? He had aggression issues, and was basically kept sociable through a nice mixture of drugs. When he forgot to take them, he would randomly threaten other people from our house, sometimes with death, sometimes just screaming at them. He was a problem, to be honest. Younger women coming visit our apartment building sometimes left in fear, because he would randomly verbally attack them. I got a straigt death threat to my face. "I am going to kill you." Turns out, if you call the police, they tell you "And what am I supposed to do now?" Taught me a lot about "the system". Anyways, when he passed away, and didn't make any useless nose anymore, nobody cares. Social isolation is a complex mix of a lot of things. And its a feedback system...

DiggyJohnson7• 2 years ago

What should the police or system have done differently?

That doesn't sound like a crap situation though. Bad neighbors can really occupy your mind.

balfirevic• 2 years ago

What should the police or system have done differently?

Investigate and press charges for death threats, is that not obvious?

throwway_2783142• 2 years ago

I heard this was one of the social functions filled by the Japanese postal workers. Their official job was to deliver the mail, sure, but they were also encouraged to spend a few minutes talking with everyone as they delivered the mail.

That's a much less efficient way to get mail delivered, because each stop takes 5-10 minutes, and thus it became discouraged.

Efficiency. Short term optimization for the wrong output.

WillAdams9• 2 years ago

One memorable instance of this sort of thing from back when I was an EMT in Virginia --- rural mailman noticed that an elderly gentleman hadn't picked up their mail from the previous day, so prevailed upon the folks at the next house to allow him to use their phone to call the County Sheriff's Department --- when the Deputy arrived, it was found that the unfortunate had had the seat in their outhouse collapse, trapping them in it.

mistrial93• 2 years ago

one day ? sounds like nosy rural people justification urban legend, more like it

beretguy2• 2 years ago

elderly gentleman
their outhouse collapse, trapping them in it.

You lost me. Were there multiple people trapped in the seat?

2-3-7-43-18072• 2 years ago

wouldn't a few seconds of conversation suffice to verify that the person is still alive?

kjkjadksj• 2 years ago

How does that work with work shifts? Postal workers here in the US deliver when many people are at work

cinntaile• 2 years ago

Elderly people usually don't work shifts anymore.

ASalazarMX2• 2 years ago

I guess if you're outside, the postman can leave your mail in your mailbox and have the peace of mind that you can die in someone else's arms.

buzzert2• 2 years ago

An important detail that makes this possible: in Japan, the postal worker is allowed to enter your house.

Every Japanese home has a little square area near the front door called a "genkan", where guests are supposed to remove their shoes when entering. Postal workers also occupy this area when delivering mail.

surfingdino• 2 years ago

Such cases are increasingly common in Europe. It's a global phenomenon.

2-3-7-43-18072• 2 years ago

considering how thin the often made of paper walls are in japan you really have to give props to their diet that nobody smells anything sooner.

shellfishgene• 2 years ago

This has long been a problem in Japan, this touching article is from 2017: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/world/asia/japan-lonely-d...

host0• 2 years ago

Very touching, beautifully written. http://web.archive.org/web/20240123112858/https://www.nytime...

binary132• 2 years ago

I wonder how many in the United States.

hilux2• 2 years ago

It's a trend. Just last week someone died at work in a Wells Fargo office (in Tempe, Arizona) and wasn't found for four days.

ourmandave2• 2 years ago

Maybe the government should offer something like the Dead Man's Switch email service.

https://www.deadmansswitch.net/

NKosmatos• 2 years ago

Sad, very sad, but a sign of our times (for some years now). Life around us has/is changing and there are more people interested in their careers and bank accounts than life itself and the supporting environment of family, friends, colleagues, relatives... We're going to be seeing this more and more in the coming years :-(

aprilthird202110• 2 years ago

Sometimes I wonder with all our great progress what did we do wrong if it caused us to stop having kids at replacement rate? I know we can not turn back the clock, but if it were a game of Sims or Civilization, what are the set of choices and progresses we could have made to avoid this outcome

moffkalast• 2 years ago

It's not what we did wrong, it's what we did right: education, contraception, women's rights, new forms of entertainment that are quite literally better than sex.

If we wanted to avoid this outcome we'd need to make the world a much worse place than it already is, and if that's really the case then we frankly deserve to go extinct.

rawgabbit• 2 years ago

Japan's population decline is due to the collapse of the "bubble economy" in the 90s. This resulted in the "Lost Decades" where household incomes fell. This is especially shocking to Japan that had promoted the myth of the "salary man" where you worked for one company for life and are rewarded with lifetime employment. This break of the Japanese social contract left a deep scar on the Japanese psyche. To further complicate things, married women in Japan face social pressure to drop out of the work force after having children. They face an impossible choice of not having children or poverty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades

pjc506• 2 years ago

As sibling comment says, this is the outcome of what we did right, and decades of policy programme.

We spent the 20th century changing the norm from "women will, from teenagerhood, roll the dice on pregnancy approximately five times with a 2% maternal mortality rate, with the expectation of at least one child not making it to adulthood, and a reasonable chance of experiencing famine at least once in your life" to .. not that. From the 1.65 billion people who entered the 20th century to the approximately 8 billion today.

We averted the Malthus catastrophe. With tremendous effort we got the line to dip below replacement rate. Now people are panicking that it will never go up again?

How many people do you think they should be on Earth? 8 billion, sixteen, a hundred billion? What does the average megacity look like at that level?

lotsofpulp3• 2 years ago

what did we do wrong if it caused us to stop having kids at replacement rate?

Gave people freedom via women’s rights, a somewhat peaceful society, and birth control. The previously high fertility rates were entirely a consequence of Mother Nature giving men more physical power than women, and women not being able to control their fertility.

anal_reactor• 2 years ago

The game is rigged and has always been, but through the entire human history people were too stupid to realize this, and the survival instinct made them, well, survive. Now is the first time ever that common man asked himself the question "Wait what?". We need a new social contract wherein the society actually does take care of an individual, instead of saying "git gud"

svieira• 2 years ago

We were warned: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/mother-teresa-at-th...

Ekaros• 2 years ago

What I find so weird about this whole situation that it has been coming for decades. Like at least 20, but probably lot more. And no one has found effective solution.

yieldcrv• 2 years ago

a lot of people do things they don't want to do, all to avoid “dying alone”

I wonder how many of those 4,000 were also those people

ggorlen• 2 years ago

Japan police: Nearly 4k who died alone at home not found for over a month

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