Tesla has taken down 2016 release noting full self driving hardware capability

https://twitter.com/AdrianSumBond/status/1827105729859473773

by ado__dev • 2 years ago

135 95 2 years ago

Generous interpretation: they want to make better and stop implying untrue things in their marketing.

Cynical version: something very bad happened that we will hear in the news in next couple of days and they are panic scrubbing stuff.

verelo• 2 years ago

Sooooo, do those of us that bought into it get compensated for the misrepresentation? I doubt it but that’s be sensible.

mey• 2 years ago

What is the average lifespan of a car? If the service is not delivered during the useful life of the vehicle I would assume it already qualifies as misrepresentation. 2016 is 8 years ago, I am sure plenty of those vehicles have put over 150k miles on them and have deprecated into nothing.

lazide3• 2 years ago

As is usual in these type of class actions, you’ll probably get coupon for 10% off the heated seat upgrades in a new Tesla after 10 years of litigation.

gregors• 2 years ago

They can't spot motorcycles

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...

dmix• 2 years ago

Seems to have been a Harley Davidson rear ended at 1am on a highway. NHTSA also opened an investigation into that crash in 2022 https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/1-u-probes-tesla-crash-205...

Tesla recently settled a lawsuit (where the Tesla driver died) recently from an old 2018 incident, so maybe the family saw an opportunity to try their own suit 2yrs after the incident https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tesla-autopilot-death-settl...

ClassyJacket• 2 years ago

"Something very bad" meaning a legal problem. A bad accident killing a handful of people wouldn't make them change it.

ripjaygn2• 2 years ago

Or they just decided to clean up the blog and remove all old releases prior to 2019. Nothing from 2018 and before in the blog anymore.

tomrod• 2 years ago

Intent matters little, consequences matter significantly. Strong argument exists that your comment focused on the intent instead of the perceived outcome.

londons_explore4• 2 years ago

This. Someone probably migrated the backend from Django to Jekyl and manually migrated a few years of blog posts and decided that anything older than 2020 was no longer relevant.

rvz2• 2 years ago

This should be unsurprising to anyone who saw through the lies from Tesla and Elon over FSD (Fools Self Driving) after the California DMV already went after Tesla over their false advertising. [0]

The worst part was that the customers paying for the system didn't even know they got scammed, as put eloquently in this HN comment. [1].

[0] https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-08-05/dmv-false-...

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364110

Kirby64• 2 years ago

Very recently they forked hardware 4 and hardware 3 FSD versions… I wonder if they’re about to attempt to claim older HW3 capable vehicles can’t actually do “actual” FSD and only HW4 “can”. Or maybe only HW5.

Either way, they’re gonna get a line of lawsuits ready if they do.

londons_explore4• 2 years ago

The longer they wait to make such a statement, the cheaper it becomes (due to more cars being taken off the road, or sold 2nd/3rd/4th hand to new owners who don't care).

At that point, they can decide if it's cheaper to settle all the lawsuits and refund all the angry owners, or if it's worth making an upgrade adapter to fit HW4/5 into the slot designed for HW3.

infotainment• 2 years ago

I never understood how they didn't get in trouble for false advertising.

The case that particularly comes to mind is the 2016/2017 cars sold as "Full Self Driving Capable" that later ended up requiring a $2000 update.

jppope• 2 years ago

no one bothered to start up a lawsuit

squigz• 2 years ago

I wonder how much it would cost to finance a lawsuit against the likes of Tesla.

TheAlchemist2• 2 years ago

My understanding was that people did sue them and got reimbursed for FSD purchases. It's not a class action though - it's arbitration on a per case basis.

torlok• 2 years ago

I think they given the known manufacturing issues, and poor customer support at the time, whoever bought a Tesla wouldn't sue even if instead of having a car delivered, Musk would take a dump on their driveway.

cedws• 2 years ago

I don’t know about Tesla but I know that Elon Musk is very careful to qualify all of his obscenely optimistic timelines with “I think that…” or something to the same effect. Most likely to shield himself from lawsuits. He was saying Tesla cars would be a self driving fleet back in like 2018. He was saying autonomous Teslas would be printing their owners money. Somehow investors don’t give a shit that he just keeps making up bollocks then never delivers.

Vortigaunt• 2 years ago

But elon told me FSD would come out next year![1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16]

[1]https://fortune.com/2015/12/21/elon-musk-interview/

[2]https://x.com/elonmusk/status/686279251293777920

[3]https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/02/self-driv...

[4]https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/driverless-tesla-will...

[5]https://x.com/elonmusk/status/823727035088416768

[6]https://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_future_we_re_buildin...

[7]https://x.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280

[8]https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1063123659290595328

[9]https://web.archive.org/web/20190220051410/https://www.ark-i...

[10]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEv99vxKjVI

[11]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucp0TTmvqOE

[12]https://web.archive.org/web/20200709130939/https://www.youtu...

[13]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF2HXId2Xhg

[14]https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-interview-axel-spr...

[15]https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/elon-musk-full-self-drivi...

[16]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwq_PhtvLwo

(Or simply, https://motherfrunker.ca/fsd/)

seeknotfind• 2 years ago

Hey but consider this is allowed on Twitter, that's at least something good. Self driving is so nice, wish they'd have it too.

rvz2• 2 years ago

So they finally stopped lying about their deceptive advertising over their Fools Self Driving (FSD) contraption?

That system was indefensible and has put the lives of drivers on the road at risk as I have said many times before. [0]

At least for FSD it is time for the fanatics to snap out of Tesla's lies over this scam as well as the 'promises' which Elon repeatedly claimed to deliver. [0]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32575938

robertclaus• 2 years ago

Wasn't there a case in CA that said Tesla couldn't use the term FSD for driver assistant technologies anymore?

modeless2• 2 years ago

It's called "FSD (Supervised)" now.

ripjaygn2• 2 years ago

Misleading, all releases prior to 2019 have been removed from the blog.

forgot-im-old2• 2 years ago

Elon's been on quite the information suppression run this week. Adding a dislike button, telling his followers to bury left content, and stories about his attempts to "win at nuclear war"

https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughMuskSpam/comments/1eu994l/mus...

oceanplexian• 2 years ago

I don’t know about the first two, but if we could build a missile defense system using American space capability that’s decades ahead of the rest of the world, is there any reason that isn’t an excellent idea?

No amount of wishful thinking is going to un-exist the thousands of Russian ICBMs. Personally, I like the idea of my existence not hinging on the mood of a dictator half a world away.

baseballdork• 2 years ago

There's an argument to be made that that would destabilize MAD by encouraging a first strike.

kylehotchkiss• 2 years ago

I'd like this to be built by the US government, not a person who turned off Ukraine's starlink access on a whim based on his personal opinion of an international event.

NhanH• 2 years ago

There used to be a Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty between US and USSR. Then Donald Rumsfeld pushed for a withdrawal from the treaty, and the US did so in 2002.

Then China had an anti satellite test in 2007.

Basically what I am saying is that your idea is not new, and it is not getting anywhere either. Trying to weaponize space is just more war-mongering.

I am not American.

stackghost• 2 years ago

A fragile egomaniac like Musk is the last person I want involved in missile defense.

light_hue_1• 2 years ago

The problem is that it's total nonsense. Even a cursory look at the problem will show you how futile attempting to build a missile defense system against Russia is.

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/02/no-us-missile-defense-sy...

The US has wasted over 350 billion dollars on this with nothing to show for it. And that's an attempt to stop one ICBM with one reentry vehicle.

Russian missiles are far more sophisticated and their launchers are all over the place. You can't stop them on the ascent phase where this would be feasible.

After that stopping a modern ICBM is impossible. A single missile contains up to a dozen warheads (MIRV) plus decoys all moving at several miles per second! There's no hope.

No amount of wishful thinking is going to overcome basic physics.

If we don't like the dictator we should depose them and support democracy everywhere. Instead we worked with Putin, we helped install him, Europe helped legitimize him. It's on us that we're in mortal danger again.

digdugdirk• 2 years ago

Because submarines. Submarines provide the sneaky vertex of the nuclear triad, and essentially serve as both the "dead man's switch" and first strike capabilities. We may be able to account for most ICBMs, but there is no effective technological deterrent for all possible attack vectors.

In the end, diplomacy (and the power to back it up) is truly the best way to go.

Barrin92• 2 years ago

is there any reason that isn’t an excellent idea?

yes. Missile shields threaten the ability of an enemy to retaliate, they're first strike enablers (so despite the name, effectively offensive weapons). The only rational choice for an opponent would then be to strike immediately before they're rendered defenseless. You would have effectively bought yourself an immediate nuclear war once Russia perceived that threat to be imminent.

Your existence hinging on a dictators mood isn't nice, but what's worse is making it game theoretically necessary for them to glass you immediately.

maeil2• 2 years ago

Just three days ago, a great article was posted on HN explaining why it's not an excellent idea: https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/annie-jacobsen-nucle...

roywiggins• 2 years ago

Probably not, but just in case, Putin announced his nuclear torpedo:

https://thebulletin.org/2023/06/one-nuclear-armed-poseidon-t...

recursivecaveat• 2 years ago

SDI was super destabilizing the last time ICBM interception was a serious discussion item is my understanding: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Defense_Initiative Deploying a defense system creates a closing window that encourages a 'now or never' first strike.

LeoPanthera• 2 years ago

I've recently been reasonably happy with FSD. But. I paid for it with my car 4 years ago, but I didn't actually get it until ~2 years ago, and even then, it's been fairly sketchy, and only getting a bit less sketchy with recent updates.

I believed their initial claims about what was then simply called "Autopilot", and I'm kind of mad at myself for doing so.

I'm also mad that FSD development has been switched to a new version of the autopilot hardware that my car doesn't have, and apparently can never be upgraded to.

The irony is, I would at least consider a new Tesla, were it not for Elon's antics and interference in US politics. While he's still there, I will never buy another Tesla, and I won't keep this one when the warranty runs out, at the end of this year.

ekianjo• 2 years ago

not for Elon's antics and interference in US politics.

Every major company CEO out there interferes with US Politics. You just started to notice?

gordon_freeman2• 2 years ago

I feel like something is off with Elon and he is not well. Nowadays he's basically going against everything he stood for so long: freedom of speech (trying to suppress views that he does not like), climate change (now he does not have problem with oil companies), Negative impact of AI (liking/sharing fake AI posts to promote Trump), etc.

It is a sad story actually that his potential is wasted like this way.

droopyEyelids• 2 years ago

My theory is some life extension or mind hacking thing he got into was tainted with heavy metals, and hes suffering from relatively severe lead or mercury poisoning

KerrAvon2• 2 years ago

He really was never that guy. He basically lied to all of us from the beginning.

I recommend this book to understand how we got here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludicrous:_The_Unvarnished_Sto...

TheAlchemist2• 2 years ago

It's just becoming visible for everyone now. Truth is, he was always like that.

Freedom of speech ? Tesla pretty much survived thanks to Elon's deal with China to build the Shanghai factory. He never ever said anything about freedom of speech there.

He also actively tried and succeed to shut down people pointing out online that Tesla finances were in a very dire state at the time (2018). Lookup 'Montana Sceptic' case - he found out the guy, personally called the office he worked in, and threatened with lawsuits, which would include his employer.

EDIT: I shared your point of view until quite recently.

Loughla4• 2 years ago

Alternate option: he was trying to sell you a car, and now believes he doesn't have to lie to accomplish that.

Animats3• 2 years ago

I feel like something is off with Elon and he is not well.

Drugs. He was first seen publicly smoking pot in 2018, and it's been downhill since then.

theogravity• 2 years ago

I love navigate on autopilot, but every time I try FSD once, something goes close to wrong that I have to take over and say I'll try again next year. Last time I tried it was when it was updated a month ago (I had a version from 2023 and recently got the latest FSD update).

I won't buy one new, only used and 3rd party if I was to buy another.

We all get to choose who we want to open our wallets to and I'm definitely not going to open it to Elon.

hunter2_• 2 years ago

I believed their initial claims [...] and I'm kind of mad at myself for doing so.

Such optimistic claims were inappropriate, misleading, unprofessional and traded long term trust for immediate gain. But in a legal sense, speculation about future events never compels anything unless there is a specific agreement; it's foolish to assume follow-through especially without (but also with) much history. So direct your anger at both parties respectively.

maeil2• 2 years ago

I assume that goes for the US with weak consumer protection laws, but Tesla also sold in countries with stronger such laws.

irjustin2• 2 years ago

I love the basic autopilot for freeway stuff. It's fanstastic at it and basically NOTHING ELSE. I can't trust it not to do weird stuff any other time. When it does weird stuff on the freeway, it seems way less risky.

I'm just sad Tesla isn't willing to go LIDAR, this is where they're going to lose. They had such a leg up as an early mover and all the advantage is gone. China's starting trials in SF and it's just a matter of time before I buy a Waymo licensed car.

cut3• 2 years ago

Ive had FSD run stop signs. Like doesnt even recognize them and goes full speed through them its wild. I'm too scared to try it on the freeway because if it phantom breaks going 75mph I imagine it ends in pain, lawsuits, and possibly deaths. It is all so bad and I definitely feel lied to. Tesla told me in their app they dont offer refunds :(

pmorici2• 2 years ago

Making purchase decisions based on a company executive’s personal political opinions is dumb. It’s a self own to buy an inferior product for political reasons.

paulcole2• 2 years ago

It’s a self own to buy an inferior product for political reasons.

Not if the inferior product is good enough for your purposes.

And not if you value your principles highly enough.

Plus the image/perception of someone buying a Tesla today is getting close to red hat territory for some.

Plenty of reasons why this isn’t a “self own.”

coffeebeqn• 2 years ago

5 years ago Tesla was a no-brainer if you wanted a EV. In 2024 it seems like competition has caught up and every year their lead grows shorter. Why pay extra to fuel their CEOs crusade about whatever culture war issue pops into his head next?

Bristleolee• 2 years ago

Isn't it way better to sell the car while the warranty is still valid?

Ylpertnodi• 2 years ago

..antics and interference in US politics. While he's still there, i will neer buy another Tesla.

It's probably good you will be prepared to forgive and forget...for a car.

Animats3• 2 years ago

"He who controls the present controls the past. He who controls the past controls the future." - Orwell

gordon_freeman2• 2 years ago

Anyone who is still thinking to trust Tesla AP/FSD should watch this video [1]

Most of the Tesla's high stock valuation depends on them executing Robotaxi biz plan and seeing how Waymo cars are self-driving in some cities for so long and now beginning on highways, I still wonder why is taking them so long to understand the proven first-principle that LIDAR and Radars are essential hardware components to solve self driving and they just can't rely on cameras alone.

[1] https://youtu.be/V2u3dcH2VGM?si=iUvrnZWgYK9stylv

Loughla4• 2 years ago

I get the sneaky feeling the idea of fsd with cameras is just an idea that is WILDLY ahead of its time. The technology isn't there yet, but will be eventually.

It's the middle part that's scary (where we are now I guess)

londons_explore4• 2 years ago

If camera based self driving doesn't happen at first, it never will later.

That's because it would be a safety downgrade, and the public never accepts new technology which does the same as a previous one, yet drops a safety feature.

For example, requiring a handbrake separate from the main brakes in cars. There hasn't been an engineering reason to keep these separate for 50 years, the main brakes already are doubly redundant. But people won't adjust laws to reduce safety, even if the safety reduction is so vanishingly small so as to not matter.

orwin• 2 years ago

The issue with vision only, especially without IR is that even if it becomes safer than a human, it won't ever have the awareness of vision+IR/Lidar, thus be less safe.

modeless2• 2 years ago

People haven't forgotten the promises. I expect that Tesla will be forced to upgrade older cars with a new autopilot computer. It will probably happen after their next chip release. In fact, that's why I purchased FSD in the first place. It was only $3k at the time and already included one guaranteed computer upgrade (which I did later get); I suspected a second computer upgrade would eventually be required. Possibly a camera upgrade as well.

Animats3• 2 years ago

Tesla's "Fake Self Driving" is looking pathetic compared to Waymo's real self driving. Tesla was going to announce their self-driving taxi a few weeks back.[1] Now that's "slipped" to October. If it really worked at all, there would be Tesla robo-taxis with safety drivers visible on the roads right now. We'd see them slowly going fully autonomous, like Waymo and Cruise did. Nobody is reporting seeing such test cars on the road. We got to watch Waymo get slowly better for years, with public reports to DMV of every incident. Each year, the stats got better, and eventually they got DMV approval for full autonomy carrying paying passengers. Now, they're a routine part of San Francisco life.

[1] https://www.topspeed.com/tesla-robotaxi-everything-confirmed...

AwaAwa• 2 years ago

After 8 years of cashing in on the hype. Better late than never. Especially when there are no penalties, and umpteen FSD subscribers sending Tesla money.

Tesla has taken down 2016 release noting full self driving hardware capability

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