Netflix Quietly Smothers 3rd Party App Ecosystem

http://goodfil.ms/blog/posts/2012/06/18/netflix-quietly-smothers-3rd-party-app-ecosystem/

by johnb • 14 years ago

213 88 14 years ago

nestlequ1k• 14 years ago

Another bad decision in a long stream of management incompetence.

walru• 14 years ago

From this vantage point they look like the next Blackberry. A company with so much going for it you'll look back and wonder how they threw it all away.

lukeschlather• 14 years ago

I don't think it's really fair to Netflix to say they're throwing anything away. They exist totally at the pleasure of big content, and big content has decided that they want people to use cable. There's not really anything you can do when your distributors buy out one of your competitors and start to cut out the middle man (you.)

mmanfrin• 14 years ago

Good lord, what stupidity. The only usable netflix interfaces are the 3d party ones. The vanilla site is atrocious.

jarrettcoggin2• 14 years ago

I mostly used their application on the PS3, but I also used the boxee implementation for a while. And yes, I do agree with you that the website is less-than-ideal.

sujal• 14 years ago

Those are official apps, though, right? They shouldn't be affected by this because they're probably covered by terms negotiated between the platform provider & Netflix?

ams6110• 14 years ago

Same here, I use the Wii app as that's what's connected to the TV. I never watch netflix on my computer.

neutronicus• 14 years ago

I have never met any person bothered by using the vanilla netflix interface in meatspace.

edandersen• 14 years ago

The bean counters are out in force. Must be a sign that they are threatened.

citricsquid• 14 years ago

Your blog post is broken, the link to the netflix post is set as the title of the href.

For anyone that wants to read it: http://developer.netflix.com/blog/read/Upcoming_Changes_to_t...

johnb2• 14 years ago

Fixing now.

geelen3• 14 years ago

And fixed. Thanks for the heads-up.

troels• 14 years ago

johnb == geelen ?

nicholassmith2• 14 years ago

Given how many companies are now rushing to get API's ready, opening them up at hackathons and getting developers motivated this seems like a really big own goal.

Consumers just like nice ways to use the services they're on, developers like nice ways to integrated services into their projects. Companies like revenues from people discovering their service outside of their normal channels. So, without knowing their genuine reasons for changing the API access it seems like Netflix basically have made a really stupid decision.

debacle• 14 years ago

From the sounds of it, they want to monetize their data.

nicholassmith2• 14 years ago

Which is really good, additional revenue streams are an excellent idea. Doing it like this? Less excellent. There's probably much better ways to monetize rather than upending the apple cart and having developers go 'huh, this isn't a great idea'.

jenius• 14 years ago

Unrelated directly to the article's content, but I found your type extremely difficult to read and reworked it in browser so I could read it more easily. Here's how it looks and the modifications I made - hope this helps!

Screenshot: http://cl.ly/HTyu

p { font-size: 16px; line-height: 1.7em; color: #555; } .hentry header { magin-bottom: 1.5em; }

geelen3• 14 years ago

Thanks for the suggestion! I met you half way :)

Johngibb• 14 years ago

I'd also suggest that you add some margin to your bullets - as it stands now the bullet is further left than the text, and then the text lines up with adjoining paragraphs. I think it would look better if the _bullets_ lined up with the other paragraphs instead.

rtkwe4• 14 years ago

What 3rd party app ecosystem? Honestly I've never used anything outside the netflix.com client.

blantonl2• 14 years ago

Search for Netflix in the App Store or the Android play market.... There are a bunch of third party apps.. Especially on android (but none of them actually stream Netflix, they just allow you to manage your queue etc)

rtkwe4• 14 years ago

Ahh those, never needed a queue manager cause I'm streaming only. They never seemed particularly useful.

fragmede4• 14 years ago

I presume http://abetterqueue.com and http://instantwatcher.com/ and the like use the APIs as well.

One thing I like about instantwatcher is that title do expire from netflix, and instantwatcher will sort by expiration date: http://instantwatcher.com/titles/expiring

rtkwe4• 14 years ago

Ok, so those are actually useful. Though it looks like Abetterqueue and instantwatcher will still be allowed under the new API rules.

notlisted• 14 years ago

Netflix recently changed the data available. It no longer provides true expiration dates until 15 days before the actual expiration date.

http://feedflix.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/expiring-dates-for-...

rfelix2121• 14 years ago

Also check out my iPhone app that helps you to never forget about movies that you want to see, or miss movies from your favorite directors/actors: http://flickd.net

sp332• 14 years ago

From Nils in the comments there:

All developers should stop integrating netflix in their services and concentrate on the competition. They have nothing to lose as they are not allowed to make money using netflix anyways.

Can anyone see this going any other way? There will be no 3rd party apps supporting Netflix anymore.

drone2• 14 years ago

I disagree with the author's assertion that the following point means you can't sell an app that uses the Netflix API:

"charge, directly or indirectly, any fee (including any unique, specific, or premium charges) for access to the Content or your integration of the APIs in your Application,"

It seems pretty clear to me that this point says that you can't add additional fees to include the Netflix API data in your app, or charge an additional fee to enable such a feature. Nowhere does it say that you can't charge for an app that includes the API.

However, that no enterprise-app statement is quite odd. I wonder what the specific driver was for that addition? There was likely some straw that broke the camel's back there, and it would be entertaining at the least (IMO) to learn what it was.

fragmede4• 14 years ago

"charge... _any_ fee... for access... [to] (your integration of the APIs) in your Application,"

It certainly reads like that to me. (How else are you supposed to use the APIs in your application?)

drone2• 14 years ago

"(including any unique, specific, or premium charges) for access to the Content or your integration of the APIs in your Application"

Is the actual text, the part you added was your interpretation of the meaning - however, there are some indicators (starting with the parenthesized text in the original) which imply you're reading it overly broad.

"For access to the Content" (the Content being the content served by the API), and "or your integration of the APIs".

Nowhere does it say, "You may not charge any fee for any application which accesses these APIs," which if it were the intent of the lawyers to ensure that only "free" applications used the APIs, they would've stated so.

Instead, they talk about fees for accessing the content and fees for integration, which seems to be to be clear that they are indicating that they don't want people selling the content served by the API or charging extra for using the Netflix API.

SoftwareMaven• 14 years ago

I completely agree. Don't make Netflix an in-app purchase after-the-fact.

I think the enterprise clause is to prevent companies from selling software to do analytics against the Netflix DB. Netflix wants that pie. The problem is that can become a very gray area.

butterfi• 14 years ago

Netflix's problems with user history may be relevant here:

http://www.reelseo.com/netflix-privacy-problems/

loudmax• 14 years ago

This worries me as a customer. As a consumer, having access to other interfaces, even if I'm not using them, seems like better value than however Netflix thinks they can monetize their customers' viewing data. If they do find some other income stream, maybe they can use it to keep pricing flat or buy more content. But after the Qwickster debacle, I'm not too confident in their ability to do this. Discouraging other enterprises from building businesses around them isn't a good signal. If Netflix drives itself out of business, I hope someone else (Amazon perhaps) will pick up the lead. I really have no interest in getting a cable subscription.

talmand8• 14 years ago

I'm curious as to why you think a company discouraging a third-party from building a business around them isn't a good signal of the survivability of the company. Are you implying that Netflix needs these third-parties in some way?

I would imagine that the vast majority of Netflix's customers not only do not use this third-party app ecosystem, but that they have no idea it exists.

talmand8• 14 years ago

I'm constantly amazed at the entitlement attitude so many have when it comes to APIs and other people's data. Netflix wishes to change the rules on their API so that it fits in with some broader strategy no one knows about, so what? They wish to restrict the flow of data that they collect for their own uses, so what? They no longer wish to allow third-parties to monetize data accessed from a public API, so what? Regardless of what the article states, it is their data and they can do with it as they please. A person's viewing history on Netflix is not that person's data, it is Netflix's data as they are the people who spent the money to collect it. No amount of whining or complaining will change that.

I can understand people thinking this might be a bad idea for them and I agree that it's possibly a PR mistake. But there is a difference between complaining about access and demanding access to a company's data.

blantonl2• 14 years ago

Spot on.

When you build your house on someone else's foundation, your house is at the mercy of the foundation's owner's plans.

Publically available APIs are great, but at times I am troubled by how many people develop entire products and applications around other's data, and then scream bloody murder when their business model goes up in smoke because the parent decided to evolve and innovate their own business.

incongruity• 14 years ago

Forget business models – I find it frustrating as a consumer to see the value proposition of a service I value being reduced.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be unhappy about a reduction in value to me, the end consumer. Do I understand it? Perhaps – I still view it as a poor sort of competitive behavior because it's built around increasing information asymmetry and reducing consumers' ability to compare offerings – rather than making their own offerings stronger.

ctdonath2• 14 years ago

From article: It appears Netflix considers what films you’ve watched and what you thought of them as their data, not yours.

What you've watched & thought of it is, of course, your data.

However, Netflix is in no way obligated to act as your memory in when & whatever manner you demand.

nmcfarl• 14 years ago

They are not obligated. However, I'm fairly sure banks aren't obligated by law to send you statements* - they certainly aren't obligated to let you download them in, say, quicken format (who could be seen as a competitor). It's just such a big feature that no one would do business with a bank that didn't offer it.

Similiarly Netflix's APIs add value for customers, and apps and outboard memory are/have been a big part of Netflix for me. Will loosing that make me leave? I don't know - but clearly this is a major downgrade in their service.

* It looks like they pretty much are obligated by law - thanks benatkin.

talmand8• 14 years ago

No, it is not your data. If it were to reside on your server and be collected by your application/code/whatever then it would by your data. You willingly provided them information that they then collect to use for whatever reasons they deem fit. From my point of view your two statements contradict each other. If it is your data then Netflix does have an obligation to act as your memory when you ask them to do so. Since you agree that they have no such obligation then you clearly point out that it is, in fact, not your data.

specialist• 14 years ago

My data is me, I am my data.

What I eat, my shoe size, where I've been, the drugs I take, where I work, my mortgage and tax payments, the movies I like.

Netflix should pay me for the honor of storing, mining, analysing, and reselling any and all information about me.

Ditto every one else peddling my data. Exploiting me (and you) for profit.

I want my cut.

mkramlich• 14 years ago

> What you've watched & thought of it is, of course, your data.

And you have always been free to write that down in your own notes, if you wish, however you wish. Some folks actually keep their own simple written text notes on what movies they've seen and want to see. same with books, albums, etc. It's free, fast and simple, and nobody has or probably can take that ability away from you.

gcb4• 14 years ago

The fact that they had this api made me choose to be their consumer in the first place. And i was already looking for a reason to ditch them since the price changes and recent focusing 100% on series instead of any film.

ChuckMcM• 14 years ago

This is exactly how it is supposed to work. Now, freshly empowered, will choose another streaming service. That service presumably distinguishes itself by offering such APIs. So the number of people who switch helps train the market.

Perhaps there is a startup opportunity for an API driven unbranded movie streaming service where the product is the viewing API/data rather than the streaming.

binaryorganic3• 14 years ago

"it is Netflix's data as they are the people who spent the money to collect it."

can easily be turned around to say

"it is the customer's data as they are the people who spent the money to produce it."

Legally, sure... all of you guys are spot on. But this article speaks to what people want, not what they legally deserve

Domenic_S4• 14 years ago

Isn't that the point of this thread? That people are arguably wanting more than they deserve?

eswangren2• 14 years ago

No they didn't, they spent money to rent/watch videos.

cwp2• 14 years ago

What you say is true, but I don't think this article is demanding access to Netflix data. They've noted rather dispassionately that Netflix is making technical and legal changes, analyzed its impact on Netflix users and third party developers, and concluded that this will be a net loss for user, third party developers and probably Netflix its self.

That sounds about right to me. I'm sure Netflix expects the net effect of this change to be beneficial to the company, and they may be right, but they are going to loose the benefits of the ecosystem that exists today. I certainly don't see any whining, complaining or demanding. It's more of a heads up to everyone involved in the Netflix ecosystem that this is an important change with significant consequences.

AFAICT, goodfil.ms is informing and preparing it's community for changes they're going to have to make. Surely you don't expect them to protect Netflix from the negative PR that this move will generate?

talmand8• 14 years ago

When someone states that the data Netflix has is not their data but that of the viewer and Netflix should not alter access to it, I take that to mean demand of access. I could be wrong but that's my take on it.

taylorbuley• 14 years ago

Worth noting, the API strategy is not exactly secret: http://gigaom2.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/netflix-api-empha...

( via http://gigaom.com/video/netflix-42-billion-api-requests/)

talmand8• 14 years ago

Original article has been updated to say that it appears the new terms are not as "sinister" as first thought. Sinister? Really?

modarts• 14 years ago

Exactly. You sharecrop their API's, you play by their rules. Full Stop.

revorad• 14 years ago

Don't forget Amazon does the same for physical goods purchases (I don't know about their streaming service). Your purchase history is not available via their API. Product reviews are also no longer available via their API.

They don't mind listing their products alongside other retailers. Otherwise many shopping comparison engines would go bust. They probably allow it, not from the goodness of their hearts, but only because it drives sales seeing that they usually come out on top in price comparisons.

Netflix probably doesn't make much money off people coming to them via comparison apps (because they are already signed up anyway).

Building your entire business on top of one or two powerful companies' data and APIs will always be extremely risky. So, it's best left for hobby apps.

Timothee• 14 years ago

Regardless of your opinion on Netflix's decision, announcing any negative news on a Friday afternoon (though I'm not surprised they did so) is bad form.

johnb2• 14 years ago

That's definitely what got us going. We wouldn't have even done the diff on the legals if the blog post wasn't put up with such vague language so late on a friday afternoon.

CGamesPlay• 14 years ago

Netflix is in a battle with the VPPA, which covers video rental history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Privacy_Protection_Act). This smells like some side-effect of a compromise they've been able to achieve in congress. Netflix's "broader objectives" are unattainable without changing some of the laws in the US, so they may be between a rock and a hard place here.

waterlesscloud• 14 years ago

Probably, but they've just managed to switch me from supporting them in that fight to hoping they lose it.

Not that it matters one bit what I think, and they clearly know that.

IsleofElba• 14 years ago

My take on this is simple: many competitors (Hulu, Amazon, Verizon, Comcast, etc.) are likely using the API or screen scraping services like Instantwatcher to gain critical competitive data about Netflix's catalog size and composition, deal term length, content popularity, etc. With the former dataset, you could basically build a list of average contract term length, suppliers, genres, popularity, etc. What leads me to believe this is the case is they first killed expiration date - obscuring when titles expire makes it difficult for competitors to pick of your best stuff. The recent changes probably came after Netflix took a closer look at how the API was being utilized.

biot• 14 years ago

These look like great changes. An alternate interpretation:

1. Third parties can't do nefarious things such as share my data with Facebook or tell my insurance company should I have watched some "surviving cancer" documentary in the past. They're enforcing laws which protect the privacy of my viewing history.

2. Someone can't gouge consumers by layering on additional fees to access what you've already paid for. eg: "Want to watch Netflix on your mobile device? That'll be $5/movie, please, and will show up on your next AT&T statement."

3. An application presenting itself as being a Netflix app can't pull the rug out from under you and make it easy to accidentally click on an iTunes version of the movie, get charged $4.99, and the third party gets an affiliate commission.

4. Third parties can no longer in bad faith scrape the Netflix database and use it for non-Netflix purposes. Do they really need to enforce common sense and decency here? There are many other sources for movie data if sites need that info.

gcb4• 14 years ago

i'm pretty sure the previous one already covered all of that.

pfranz• 14 years ago

Does this mean we can use Netflix on Xbox without paying for Gold?

binaryorganic3• 14 years ago

Updated:

Update: We’ve received word that the new API Terms of Use aren’t as sinister as on first glance. From VentureBeat:

We are not prohibiting sites from showing competing services, however we do not want anyone to use Netflix content such as titles and descriptions to advertise a competing service.

We’re not prohibiting developers from monetizing their applications by selling them directly to consumers. We will not, however, permit resale of our information in a business-to-business fashion.

tylerlh• 14 years ago

It seems quite clear to me that we are in dire need of a redefinition of 'my data' and who owns it. IMO, if my brain thought it up and you aren't paying me -- it's mine.

dr42• 14 years ago

OT, but I wondered if anyone with the new MacBook Air (either i5 or the i7) has tried Netflix to see if it still sets the fans spinning loudly, or if the processor is able to handle it like the MBP can?

Netflix Quietly Smothers 3rd Party App Ecosystem

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