Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)

https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html

by davedx • 2 years ago

153 59 2 years ago

groups.csail.mit.edu

hmarkgen• 2 years ago

What is striking about written documents from that era is the lucid and yet far more sophisticated writing style compared to contemporary publications.

Would Licklider be happy with the AI slop that we see today? Would he be able to use LLMs in a productive manner?

People in that era could be optimistic because they did not suffer from information overload. The best symbiotic relationship is still man-book or man-pencil-and-paper.

davedx2• 2 years ago

I suspect he would think ChatGPT voice is pretty close to what he envisioned for man-machine symbiosis

pyrale• 2 years ago

They could be optimistic because they didn’t get suckered by what tech has become. It is the same kind of optimism that can be found in Engelbart’s preamble to the mother of all demos.

The idea that one could treat a program delivered by google, facebook or amazon as something to cooperate with rather than use warily is much harder now than it was then.

photochemsyn2• 2 years ago

Major fields of study like chaos (sensitive dependence on initial conditions within an apparently deterministic system), protein structure solving from X-ray diffraction patterns and many others would be impossible without computational assistance from machines.

As far as style and tone, you can certainly get LLMs to mimic Licklider's style with suitable prompting, e.g.

"In replicating the reflective and anticipatory tone of the original text, it becomes evident that the concept of man-computer symbiosis was not merely speculative but a forecast grounded in the trajectory of technological and computational advancements. This partnership, as envisioned, holds the promise of amplifying human potential through the strategic leverage of computational power, thereby redefining the boundaries of what can be achieved through the confluence of human and machine capabilities. The profound foresight in recognizing and articulating such a partnership underscores a remarkable understanding of the complementary strengths of man and machine, heralding a new era in the evolution of technological augmentation."

TrapLord_Rhodo2• 2 years ago

sounds totally like an LLM.

justin662• 2 years ago

Alan Kay chats / blogs / whatever-it-is-people-do-there a lot on Quora and the question "What would be the place of AI in Doug Engelbart's vision of 'Augmenting Human Intellect'? How can we reconsider things within current AI 'developments'?" recently came up.

https://www.quora.com/What-would-be-the-place-of-AI-in-Doug-...

walterbell2• 2 years ago

Thanks for the pointer, didn't know that Quora had threaded discussions.

Excerpt from Alan Kay's answer:

  One big distinction in the 1962 time period is that they thought of “machine intelligence” as being a kind of complimentary set of thinking tools that could be “symbiotic” to how humans were able to think. They were not at all thinking about something like a slave or a major domo, but something more like a research assistant or a “Memex” (the latter was a big influence on Doug’s thinking).

  In the very late 60s the “official AI researchers” started to think that something like “intelligent Greek slaves” were needed for the “Romans” (Americans), and became rivals to Doug’s notion of elevating human thinking rather than just elevating power. This was a bad idea then … and it’s a bad idea today.

tolerance• 2 years ago

Would he even be happy with the man-made slop and productively collaborate with other people today?

The best symbiotic relationship is still man-book or man-pencil-and-paper.

And foremost, man-man.

boguscoder3• 2 years ago

There’s a book “The Dream Machine”* that is kinda biographical for this paper

* https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/722412

davedx2• 2 years ago

Yes I read the book first 6-7 years ago! One of the best books I’ve read, up there with Skunk Works.

boguscoder3• 2 years ago

Huge props for Skunk Works! I found Dream Machine considerably harder to read (non native speaker here) but content is golden anyway

criddell• 2 years ago

The Stripe Press edition of the book is a beautiful product, but the font is small. I bought the book but had a hard time reading it so I got a digital copy for my ereader where I could select a larger font.

uolmir2• 2 years ago

It is one of my favorites. I actually came to it via "where wizards stay up late", which I would also recommend although it doesn't have the depth and insight of dream machine.

metroholografix• 2 years ago

Wizards for me falls flat (kinda like "soul of a new machine" that's often recommended but which I found a complete waste of time) while the Dream Machine, Dealers of Lightning [1] and Norbert Wiener's biography [2] are all essential reading.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Dealers-Lightning-Xerox-PARC-Computer...

[2] https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Hero-Information-Age-Cybernetics...

jjice• 2 years ago

This is a _dense_ book (in the best way). So much incredible history that's not as well presented anywhere else I've found. Sitting at 500+ pages and the font is pretty damn small, this is one hell of an informative book. We really stand on the shoulders of giants.

krtkush• 2 years ago

Took me about 6 months to finish it. But it was such a fun read! I would put it in the leagues of Making of the Atomic Bomb and Emperors of Maladies.

pjmorris• 2 years ago

'The Dream Machine' languished in my 'To read' pile until I started the audiobook while on a road trip earlier this year. I was drawn in and read it through, switching between audio and ebook. I knew parts of the puzzle but it was amazing to see how they all fit together. An amazing book about a series of amazing accomplishments that let us share these ideas so widely and quickly.

cxr• 2 years ago

Here's the first of a three-part interview with Waldrop, the author of The Dream Machine[1] and semi-official Licklider biographer of sorts:

<https://luminary.fm/episode/mitch-waldrop-on-the-dream-machi...>

1. Not to be confused with Ted Nelson's titled work Dream Machines, one half of the pair Computer Lib/Dream Machines that described Project Xanadu and articulated a vision about computer user freedom that predates Stallman and the free software movement, complete with manifesto.

hcarvalhoalves• 2 years ago

That is a pretty grounded, timeless write-up for 1960.

    5.4 The Language Problem

    The basic dissimilarity between human languages and computer languages may be the most serious obstacle to true symbiosis.

LLMs unlock the much sought after capacity to query data in natural language, that is why "AI" is such a hype, besides not being intelligent (in terms of reasoning) at all.

soloist112• 2 years ago

The computer works with binary sequences. LLMs do not change this fact.

moffkalast• 2 years ago

They don't really have to. Even in Star Trek where you can tell the holodeck to do whatever in LLM fashion, there's also a lower level language that can be used for more fine control. It's always good to have levels of abstraction when you need them, this just adds the very top one that was always missing.

nanna3• 2 years ago

Licklider was primarily referring to the need to suppercede punch card languages with ones with an interactive human language interface. Chiefly, McCarthy's Lisp, which he directed the Arpa/IPTOs funding towards, but it would apply to practically every language since - though in terms of interactivity still CL most of all.

That said he also lead the funding of AI, so LLMs are not outside of what he was imagining altogether, for example he wrote about the need for a busy executive to communicate with his computer like he would his secretary, etc. But he also seemed to think that interactive programming environments could accomplish this goal.

Sidenote, something that's forgotten is that Lick was a Lisp person. His archives contain his notes to SICP, and various toy programmes.

photochemsyn2• 2 years ago

Impressively, the author predicts the rise of declarative programming:

"The idea may be highlighted by comparing instructions ordinarily addressed to intelligent human beings with instructions ordinarily used with computers. The latter specify precisely the individual steps to take and the sequence in which to take them. The former present or imply something about incentive or motivation, and they supply a criterion by which the human executor of the instructions will know when he has accomplished his task. In short: instructions directed to computers specify courses; instructions-directed to human beings specify goals. ... It is clear that, working within the loose constraints of predetermined strategies, computers will in due course be able to devise and simplify their own procedures for achieving stated goals."

georgekorsnick• 2 years ago

Impressively, the author predicts the man/men-ness of our industry.

makeitdouble• 2 years ago

I was going to quip that "idea guys" can predict things in a useless way when having no idea how to make them a reality...but Licklider went on to have such impact on our field.

It's mindblowing he was central to the creation of Arpanet and multics and so many other critical foundational bricks of today's computing.

dang• 2 years ago

Related. Others?

Licklider 1960 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38800451 - Dec 2023 (1 comment)

Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32856009 - Sept 2022 (8 comments)

Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26887654 - April 2021 (8 comments)

Man-Computer Symbiosis by J. C. R. LICKLIDER (1960) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20642783 - Aug 2019 (1 comment)

Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18950590 - Jan 2019 (2 comments)

Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14302515 - May 2017 (2 comments)

Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11673917 - May 2016 (1 comment)

Man-Computer Symbiosis [J.C.R. Licklider] (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11534637 - April 2016 (1 comment)

Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8418654 - Oct 2014 (6 comments)

Internet Antichrist [J.C.R. Licklider's Man-Computer Symbiosis] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=920121 - Nov 2009 (1 comment - article by David Byrne of all people)

Also related:

Who Is This “Licklider” Guy? (2008) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20442278 - July 2019 (11 comments)

J.C.R. Licklider on the History of Personal Workstations (1986) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11049205 - Feb 2016 (28 comments)

The Computer as a Communication Device (1968) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9014413 - Feb 2015 (2 comments)

How DEC scientists imagined the Internet in 1968 -- a year before the Internet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5754287 - May 2013 (1 comment)

olooney• 2 years ago

Some related works from my notes on the extended mind thesis:

The Extended Mind Thesis, Andy Clark and David Chalmers (1998) - https://www.alice.id.tue.nl/references/clark-chalmers-1998.p...

Man-Computer Symbiosis, J. C. R. Licklider, (1960) - https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html

As We May Think, Vannevar Bush (1945) - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-m...

Augmenting Human Intellect: A Conceptual Framework, by Douglas Engelbart (1962) - https://www.dougengelbart.org/pubs/augment-3906.html

Characteristica universalis, Leibniz (c. 1679) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristica_universalis

Edit: Also, if you're interested in Licklider in particular, The Dream Machine is essential reading.

https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Machine-M-Mitchell-Waldrop/dp/1...

im3w1l• 2 years ago

I assume that the reason this is relevant now is because of the the announcement of FinalSparks NeuroPlatform, that gives SaaS access to brain organoids?

Very cool but also very creepy. Has a clear potential to become the most evil thing humanity has ever done.

Checking now, it has been posted to HN a few times in the last weeks but without discussion really taking off.

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/worlds-first...

kaycebasques7• 2 years ago

The fig tree is pollinated only by the insect Blastophaga grossorun. The larva of the insect lives in the ovary of the fig tree, and there it gets its food. The tree and the insect are thus heavily interdependent: the tree cannot reproduce without the insect; the insect cannot eat without the tree; together, they constitute not only a viable but a productive and thriving partnership. This cooperative "living together in intimate association, or even close union, of two dissimilar organisms" is called symbiosis [27].

I believe the meaning of symbiosis has evolved since 1960. Symbiosis is now an umbrella term that only implies a close association between two organisms. It doesn't necessarily imply mutual benefit anymore. A mutually beneficial association is called mutualism. An association where one benefits at the expense of the other is parasitism. Commensalism is when one benefits and the other is neither harmed nor benefited. There is also amensalism, where one is harmed and the other is neither harmed nor benefited. Symbiosis is the superset of parasitism, commensalism, amensalism, and mutualism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis

It's amusing to me when people use "symbiosis" in the old sense and then I start pondering whether the thing they're describing is actually {mutual,amensal,parasit,commensal}ism

binary1323• 2 years ago

FWIW, I’ve never heard of any meaning of symbiosis other than mutually beneficial. I’m not able to cite this but I believe the prefix sym- may imply this.

kaycebasques7• 2 years ago

Look at the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page on the topic

Symbiosis (from Greek συμβίωσις, symbíōsis, "living with, companionship, camaraderie", from σύν, sýn, "together", and βίωσις, bíōsis, "living")[2] is any type of a close and long-term biological interaction between two biological organisms of different species, termed symbionts, be it mutualistic, commensalistic, or parasitic.[3] In 1879, Heinrich Anton de Bary defined it as "the living together of unlike organisms". The term is sometimes used in the more restricted sense of a mutually beneficial interaction in which both symbionts contribute to each other's support.[3]

It acknowledges the popular use of the term while implying that the technical meaning is broader

I’ve never heard of any meaning of symbiosis other than mutually beneficial

This is exactly why it's so funny to me. Some snake oil salesman says "we have a symbiotic relationship with XYZ" and in my head I'm thinking "yes, a parasitic symbiotic relationship..."

carlosneves• 2 years ago

I actually prefer to think in terms of the broader sense of symbiosis (including all the types of symbiosis you mentioned).

Sure we want the way we relate to technology to be mutualistic, but in reality we observe many instances of the other kinds of relationships.

nanna3• 2 years ago

I think you're confusing a technical definition used among certain academic milieus with an everyday meaning of the rest of a language's speakers whose meaning has not changed since the 1960s. If someone uses the word symbiosis without referring to the distinctions you mention, you can just assume they're referring to what you call mutualism. We do this all the time in language. If someone says they're going to check the internet for something, I don't say well actually what you mean is you're launching your browser and only accessing a subset of the internet called the web... Of course not.

kaycebasques7• 2 years ago

I get it. The everyday meaning is mutualism. I'm not confusing anything; please don't write off my perspective as mere "confusion". We are on HN, a place founded on gratifying curiosity. I was fascinated to learn the broader meaning of the term and figured that HN community would also enjoy discussing the rich technical meaning of the term. But instead I got some amusing interactions with the Semantics Police. And it's not like I'm standing on shaky ground with my definition; as I've mentioned before I am sourcing it from the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article on symbiosis. But yes, re-reading my original comment, I can see why you all might say "no, YOU're trying to be the Semantics Police!" Not my intention. I can easily hold both meanings of the term in my mind at the same time. The thing I really wanted to focus on was the fascinating richer meaning of "symbiosis" that makes space for benefit/benefit, harm/benefit, benefit/neutral, harm/neutral interactions.

The only thing I take back is the phrasing about it "evolving" since the 1960s. I looked up the biological terms; mutualism goes back to the 1840s at least. I guess Proudhon coined it. Amensalism goes back to the 1870s. Etc. It's still plausible to me that biologists or ecologists really pinned down how these terms relate to each other in the 1960s or later (since ecology as a field of study really ramped up in the 60s) but that would be difficult to prove.

Also, please remember that the topic came up because Licklider, an academic computer scientist and psychologist, used a biological term loosely in the title of an academic article published to an official computer science journal.

ash-ishh• 2 years ago

https://karpathy.ai/blog/licklider1960.html

dr_dshiv• 2 years ago

I think of computers as our exocortex, even more than our symbiont.

andsoitis• 2 years ago

In humans, the cerebral cortex carries out functions, like memory, thinking, learning, reasoning, problem-solving, emotions, consciousness, and sensory functions.

gnufx• 2 years ago

It's always worth reading the originals in a field, who typically had a clear, far-sighted view.

Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)

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