I always knew I was different, I didn't know I was a sociopath

https://www.wsj.com/health/wellness/i-always-knew-i-was-different-i-just-didnt-know-i-was-a-sociopath-68ebe08b

by erehweb • 2 years ago

154 175 2 years ago

qumpis• 2 years ago

Fascinating article. I wonder what made her do the steps in finding what's "different" with her, and most of all, why the need to fix it arose. Is it to "fit in", understandably? It somehow felt alien to me, and this shows my ignorance on the topic, that people lacking in empathy department would attempt to understand the reasons and act "good" towards others even if this feeling is only understood intellectually.

endo_bunker• 2 years ago

It would be interesting to know if this is a common experience among sociopaths. I had always thought that behaviors like theft resulted more simply from the lack of empathy (and desire for the stolen item), rather than resolving some kind of internal tension.

james-bcn• 2 years ago

Yes. She says "I was sorry I had to steal to stop fantasizing about violence" - it seems there is something else going on here, not just being a sociopath.

DrDroop• 2 years ago

Special books for special children did an interview with a self identified sociopath that shows the same level of self awareness and openness to discuss the problem[1].

I think it is always difficult to analyse why someones does something. In Psychology, behaviour is like a Feynman diagram, you can always rotate the picture and get a valid particle interaction. What is cause and what is effect is hard to tell, but yes some people steal out of a sense of justice if you can call it that.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdPMUX8_8Ms

h2odragon3• 2 years ago

"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is good advice and a rational strategy without emotion or empathy.

The practical problem is figuring out that "others would have" something different than you would like, because they're emotional and irrational (as far as you can tell).

swayvil• 2 years ago

The best way to fit a hand is not another hand. The best way to fit a hand is a glove.

So when you say "good advice" I say, "it depends"

Attummm• 2 years ago

If you read about her tendencies, they are distinctly antisocial, characterized by a genuine urge to commit acts of violence and stealing.

Not having the urge to commit violence would be a pretty good reason for trying to get help.

kayodelycaon6• 2 years ago

I think it’s easy enough to explain. I’m asexual and don’t feel sexual attraction. In fact I’m completely blind to it.

I definitely noticed something was wrong with me once I started school. Since then, I am constantly reminded of that by everyone around me. They have something I’m expected to have.

Just imagine if you were the weird one because you were the only person with emotions. You can’t escape it. You can’t fix it. Some people try to be “helpful” and “understand” but the entire time, they are pointing out you are beyond their comprehension.

It cause enormous anxiety to know you need to be something you are not. You have to learn to cope with it.

JohnBooty7• 2 years ago

     I definitely noticed something was wrong with me once I started school

I hope you have gotten, or will get to, a place where you no longer think of this as something "wrong" with you!

yard2010• 2 years ago

Wrong !== Different. This is by design. I can imagine all the birds in the dinosaur times felt wrong because they weren't t-rexes. Well, that's what saved them in the end.

One would never know.

shrimp_emoji3• 2 years ago

On the flip side, the vast majority of people can't make up a username as cool as yours.

JohnBooty7• 2 years ago

It's fascinating. I've read a fair bit about sociopaths (but I'm no expert, obviously) and her compulsions feel pretty unique to me. It's not something I have really seen mentioned with sociopaths too often.

A lot of sociopaths lead pretty normal lives. Pro-social behavior is generally pretty beneficial, even if you are doing it for practical reasons and not out of empathy.

dustincoates• 2 years ago

Another article from the same person: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/25/magazine/patr...

And discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39500240

And yet another from a few years back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24806019

djyaz1200• 2 years ago

Sociopaths do love publicity

sandspar• 2 years ago

The thrill response may be preserved.

n4r92• 2 years ago

She seems to be a bit of an intriguing character. I remember googling her when that thread from 18 days ago popped up and couldn't figure out whether she was genuine or simply a very good self-publicist chasing a literary niche.

Seeing her pop up again has made me lean towards the latter. I googled around again and discovered a reddit thread in "askpsychology": https://www.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_...

It raises a few interesting concerns, for example:

* You'd expect someone with a degree in psychology to be unlikely to use the term "sociopath" so freely and without qualification or clarification.

* Her credentials seem questionable. There's no record of her actually having a PhD and no record of a dissertation in proquest. It's possible she did a "PsyD" program at California Graduate Institute.

* She appears to use clinical terminology incorrectly and make claims on her (now disappeared) blog that aren't backed up by research.

* Her real name appears to be Patricia Cagle, however she wrote articles under the name "Patric Gagne" for a column called Modern Love in NYT which apparently does not permit pseudonyms.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK• 2 years ago

And why does she (?) feel the need to emphasize her posh upbringing? Might be a fantasy too.

TwoNineFive• 2 years ago

It says a lot about HN that people keep posting this.

fnord77• 2 years ago

no, she's just a garden-variety narcissist

77pt772• 2 years ago

This sounds very similar to the book

Confessions of a Sociopath A Life Spent Hiding in Plain Sight

Pretty mediocre book BTW.

rapsey• 2 years ago

After years of study, intensive therapy and earning a Ph.D. in psychology

I wonder what the percentage of psychologists get their degrees to figure out what the hell is wrong with them. I bet it is pretty large.

Also her gaze in the picture is quite unnerving. I wonder if it is because I know she is a sociopath or would I find it just as unnerving if I did not.

spiffytech• 2 years ago

My wife is a therapist and says it's a very common reason people get into the field.

em-bee6• 2 years ago

i think this is positive. because it means therapists can empathize when people feel that there is something wrong with them. there is nothing worse than a therapist who doesn't take your feelings seriously.

also, when you do need therapy yourself, depending on what kind of therapist you get, you can end up spending a lot of time learning just for your own sake. my brother did that, and at some point he was able to explain his issues better than the therapists he talked to.

did you ask your wife about her reasons to become a therapist?

ersamsa• 2 years ago

Same. Knowing some of them personally confirms that they‘re humans after all.

JackFr• 2 years ago

Also her gaze in the picture is quite unnerving.

Photographers know their business.

fennecfoxy• 2 years ago

I'd say you're right. The lighting draws a line down the middle of her face; our brains don't like asymmetry so arranging the lighting and expression like that has intent.

No photographer trying to capture a regular image would have the light fall like that, and it would be very hard/lucky to get it to do it "by accident"

77pt772• 2 years ago

Most common motivations are to understand why they are so messed up and to exert power over others.

The former usually fail and the latter always succeed and get tremendous benefits from it, not unlike the ones bullies get from abusing their victims.

supertofu2• 2 years ago

Same reason why the percentage of Registered Dieticians with active or recovered eating disorders is very high.

steveBK123• 2 years ago

The two psychologists I know are definitely in the top decile of people I know who need to see a psychologist, so yes this tracks.

roydivision• 2 years ago

The subject has always fascinated me, largely to understand this character type when I encounter it. I've worked for a couple of sociopaths, it was extremely confusing and difficult.

I find it interesting that the author understands that the way she behaves can have negative impacts on people around her. In my experience this is unusual, sociopaths I've met either don't get this, or if they do, don't care, and in some cases use it as a 'special power' to advance themselves, especially in business. If you're not hampered by feelings of guilt or unfairness a lot of social barriers fall away.

JohnBooty7• 2 years ago

    In my experience this is unusual, sociopaths I've met either 
    don't get this

Wow, that doesn't jive with my personal experiences or what I've ever read about sociopathy. It sounds more like you're describing folks on the autism spectrum.

Sociopaths (which I realize is a somewhat deprecated term) tend to be skilled manipulators because they do understand how they effect others, but don't particularly feel much guilt about it.

They also behaved pretty scrupulously most of the time, because even if you have little empathy, behaving like a creepy scumbag is generally not going to be beneficial in the long run. If you are a sociopath, you might not feel "guilty" about being a shitty neighbor or even murdering somebody, but on a purely practical level, your life will still be much more pleasant if you're friendly with the neighbors and the cops aren't busting down your door to arrest you for murder.

Or at least that's how it seemed to me. I'm just curious observer, not somebody really qualified to have an opinion...

dirtybirdnj7• 2 years ago

Wow, that doesn't jive with my personal experiences or what I've ever read about sociopathy. It sounds more like you're describing folks on the autism spectrum.

The amount of undue hate that people on the spectrum get for being sociopaths or narcissist is awful. You are correct that they may misunderstand or "not get" social situations. You are incorrect in that they don't care / can't feel the emotion of a situation. Often they are overwhelmed by this and it's what makes "dealing" (passing as NT) difficult.

The amount of times I have had people socially manipulate situations against me is difficult to count. Any time you speak up about this you are the "crazy" one. These have mostly been situations where sociopaths are abusing me for the entertainment / social benefit reason.

They DO NOT CARE about the pain / suffering they cause. This has been a source of extreme stress, pain and suffering in my life. YMMV obviously but the amount of time I have to spend explaining this to people is disheartening. It's like nobody wants to believe that people can be so awful... and this belief can hand wave away any bad behavior being described.

because even if you have little empathy, behaving like a creepy scumbag is generally not going to be beneficial in the long run.

I think you significantly underestimate the benefit to risk ratio. There are a lot more terrible, manipulative, sadistic people out there than "kind but misunderstood" people. The averages are not in our favor.

klabb32• 2 years ago

Super interesting. I can recognize this behavior with people playing multiplayer games. When there are no stakes, and everything is a game, people mess around – especially when they’re bored. If it’s just a game, who cares?

People with extremely low “emotional reactivity” appear unlikely to share with others (why would they, most of us share stuff for empathy - and they may not see the point - or lose out socially). According to the Gervais principle, they are rewarded for their excellence of social deception in institutions like corporations. Then there are the worse, hardened criminals as well, taking assignments nobody else would, or for their own sadistic maladaption.

The best fit in a healthy society, I think, is doing things that others can’t, like extreme sport type of stuff, or astronaut, brain surgeon - sound decision making under immense pressure. Alex Hannold for instance, has an almost non-existing amygdala response even compared to other extreme sporters, iirc. He apppears deeply aware of this, and seems to channel everything into his climbing, which overall seems really healthy.

nordsieck• 2 years ago

The best fit in a healthy society, I think, is doing things that others can’t, like extreme sport type of stuff, or astronaut, brain surgeon

Reminds me of the Bill Burr bit on Lance Armstrong[1]

The guy was a sociopath on a bicycle. As far as I'm concerned we got off easy. If that guy was working for a corporation he would have been pouring stuff in the water supply, doing god knows what. Just keep him on the bike. Let him go up and down hills. He's not hurting anybody.

---

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YL04v-J5U

coldtea5• 2 years ago

Though on the matter of Lance Armstrong, well, tons of others, in the same races, did the same things.

Lio2• 2 years ago

He's not hurting anybody.

Well he did insist that other members of his team also take EPO, HGH, blood transfusions (occasionally with bad blood), etc.

We don't know what the long term affects of that will be but he certainly wasn't thinking of health of his staff.

He also destroyed Greg LeMond's career for exposing him.

gosub1002• 2 years ago

He's hurting all the other players who do not dope, and hurting the sport in general by creating an incentive for most people to dope, tarnishing the reputation.

Waterluvian2• 2 years ago

Reading this reminds me of someone I was friends with in high school who quickly turned out to be absolutely insufferable to play any sort of cooperative game with.

They would take absolutely _everything_ that could be shared, and calmly and with complete conviction explain it was better off with them. They were blind to the bigger picture of quickly having nobody who would ever play with them.

Magic the Gathering at lunch was also a terrible experience with this person...

williamcotton2• 2 years ago

Teenagers are also experimenting with many philosophies and personas that don’t strictly align with personality disorders… unless you just want to call all of adolescence a personality disorder, which might not be far off…

jiggawatts• 2 years ago

Reminds me of something I learned about other cultures while playing DOTA 2 on ranked ladder.

For reference: This is a 5 vs 5 team game where each player character has a loosely defined role, such as "healer", "lead combat", or whatever. The most effective play style is for four of the players to support the strongest attacker-class player, to the point of self-sacrifice.

In Australia we would get random south-east asian players joining our servers, and generally we wouldn't even notice other than the alternative scripts in their usernames.

Philippinos we would always notice, because they're all acted like sociopaths. Even if they were mute, and had an English alias, we could pick them out reliably. They'd be selfish to a point of absurdity, taking in-game gold away from desperate team-mates even when they couldn't possibly spend the gold themselves. As in, even when they had all item slots full with the best possible item, so they were "maxed out", they would cut off their own support players to take gold at any cost.

I just couldn't wrap my head around why they were behaving this way. Also, why just that one country? Why not other countries in the area, like Singapore?

Someone from the Phillipenes explained online: They had experienced sudden population growth and now there's too many young people with basically no job prospects. It's a dog-eat-dog world in their country, with fierce competition in every aspect of life. E.g.: There's no "study groups" in school, because why would you help someone else pass their exams? That would just enable them to steal the job you're competing for! So these kids while away their time playing competitive games in internet cafes, and this "stepping on others to get to the top of the pile" element of their lives is made manifest in the crystal clear simulated environment of a game.

It made me think: Cooperation, social norms, collaboration, and all of the non-sociopath behaviours we're accustomed to aren't necessarily the norm, with only mentally-ill individuals deviating from it. Instead, it's possible for entire cultures to be sociopathic! Stress, poor job prospects, increased competition, etc... can push everyone towards these behaviours, all at once. In a situation like that, the natural sociopaths might prosper, and the "supports" might end up being horribly exploited or even starve to death.

agumonkey• 2 years ago

They would take absolutely _everything_ that could be shared, and calmly and with complete conviction

How do you call this ? this kind of shameless self interested bullshit ?

I work with someone who has an uncanny ability to talk like this and say vaporous stuff with a strange blend of belief and weight.

I don't know how this is called .. but it stumps me every time he does it. He can fail at the most basic thing or refuse to actually share the workload and at the next meeting come up explaining to everybody how things should go because of <buzzword> and <more buzzword>. And he manages to tap deep into your brain on ideas that you will never go against (team spirit, dignity, mission, whatever) so it disengages any critical thinking reflex you might have.

DonHopkins2• 2 years ago

Stewart Lee's impression of Ricky Gervais ("the Boris Johnson of stand up") literally saying what cannot be said because of political correctness and the woke brigade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIHY5cFXqQk

icpmacdo• 2 years ago

Not to conflate it with him not feeling fear though, here is a TV show episode with him talking about the subject, hard to timestamp but 14:10 for the busy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OGs1DehzA

ttepasse• 2 years ago

Astronauts in the last 50 years spending a lot of time together in a small group in an aluminium can, on the ISS for six month, sometimes for a year. Assuming the ideas of longer Moon and Mars mission will happen, that reality will be far more longer. Split-second decisions may be a thing, but mostly rare.

For long term small groups who won’t drive each other insane, I'd rather select for agreeableness and conscientiousness than low emotional reactivity.

klabb32• 2 years ago

Sounds right. It was just an example, and it probably should go off the list.

rgrieselhuber• 2 years ago

Her dead eyes are kind of a giveaway.

petee• 2 years ago

Thats not a fair assumption. I know more than a few people who have flat expressions or speech and their personality is totally opposite.

For some its how they are raised, others it a muscular issue. And yet others are awkward in front of a camera

supertofu2• 2 years ago

I'm sure she can mask, just like millions of other neurodivergent people. That photo was chosen deliberately.

rambambram• 2 years ago

Interesting read. Anybody interested in the topic should read/watch Sam Vaknin.

AndrewKemendo8• 2 years ago

I’m really worried that there’s a trend to normalize narcissistic and sociopathic behavior simply because “they are self aware”

There are a few ASPD, NPD or narcissist Instagram pages which are clearly sociopaths getting their attention fix by acknowledging and describing these behaviors - this isn’t the same as recovery groups or serious interventions because ASPD has been seen as impossible to treat (though that’s slowly changing by viewing it as a basket of disorders)

So it seems like we have basically birthed an entirely new class of advanced sociopaths who can recognize their behaviors, pretend like they’re actually working towards fixing them, even warning people that they aren’t safe so they get a free pass on their behavior. In the meantime, they just continue to act in only their own best interest, while shrugging their shoulders, and throwing their hands up, saying “what can I do? I’m working on it.”

Sociopath awareness pins coming soon?

So let’s not get confused here. Self reported non clinically observed sociopaths don’t meet the DSM definition for ASPD because lack of guilt, not simply the awareness of antisocial behavior.

One can certainly argue about definitions, but experience in narcissistic abuse survivors groups (many of which I am in) is consistent and robust in identifying major behavioral patterns including self-aggrandizement.

This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally.

Numerous studies indicate high correlation with aspd and powerful positions so it’s not like this group needs a leg up. Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible.

I’m unaware of anything more destructive than a smart sociopath and it seems the acceptance of them is growing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disor...

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-pe...

cupcakecommons• 2 years ago

incredibly tiresome and stupid trend if it exists

hjanssen• 2 years ago

So what is your proposed solution? I'd rather have a sociopath that is upfront about being one to me than figuring that fact out by myself.

Shunning those people from society seems like not an option to me, they are people after all.

I think normalizing sociopathic behaviour is something to be worried about, but I personally don't see that happening anywhere so I am unsure what your point is.

stormfather• 2 years ago

Let's genetically profile for it, and if there's a link, screen for embryos that don't have it. This would require a bit more technological advancement of course. But imagine, a world without sociopaths! It would be the biggest generational improvement in the world in history.

dirtybirdnj7• 2 years ago

I think normalizing sociopathic behaviour is something to be worried about, but I personally don't see that happening anywhere so I am unsure what your point is.

The normalization of sociopathic behavior is pretty clear to see in politics and celebrity culture. If you don't see it you have had your eyes willfully closed to it for 10+ yrs.

Maybe you have or are currently engaged in some of these behaviors and you "can't see" them because it would damage your ego's view of yourself as a good person who deserves the success they have experienced.

Shunning those people from society seems like not an option to me, they are people after all

This is effectively what happens to the victims of the sociopaths. They are driven out from the margins. The way I read this is "sociopaths can do whatever they want, but when others complain they are the problem".

I cannot stress how wrong that last statement is. So much suffering and therapy to recover from people who behaved this way. People at the top. Bosses. Managers.

People who were supposed to be looking out for the group and were not.

h2odragon3• 2 years ago

So what would you tell a "smart sociopath" to do? Someone who wants to live and pursue their own happiness without diminishing that of others?

Should they just cease to exist? Retreat somewhere they can't hurt others and live apart from society because society has no place for their disability? Or is it possible to fit in and be useful even if you're neuro divergent?

AndrewKemendo8• 2 years ago

I genuinely don’t know because there’s no rehabilitation structure that the medical system has identified as useful

Low IQ sociopaths are typically institutionalized or are homeless of some sort

High IQ sociopaths tend to be managers or intermediaries that do not break laws but exploit social graciousness and live in the minutae or vagaries

So my answer is: get them out of your org or life as quickly as possible and don’t look back.

I’m trying to create a world where acting like a narcissist is effectively impossible - the world we have created promotes narcissistic behavior

DonHopkins2• 2 years ago

At least not allow them to buy social networks or run for president.

haswell2• 2 years ago

This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally

I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here. If this is a result of deep childhood trauma, in what way is it self propelled?

Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible.

This seems pretty horrific to me. Assuming ASPD exists on a spectrum, and assuming it’s possible to treat it or at least manage it, it seems like the absolute worst option is to isolate people, the realities of which would almost certainly mean grouping people with these traits together.

Furthermore, if indeed trauma is the cause, it seems even more horrific to categorically discard people who have undergone this kind of hardship through no fault of their own.

I’m not saying people who cause harm to others should get a free pass. But what you’re describing seems untenable from a moral/ethical standpoint, to say nothing of the practical implications.

AndrewKemendo8• 2 years ago

I’d make a strong argument that the vast majority of the world’s ills are a result of narcissists being in charge of most of the organizations worldwide

You seem to have in mind some poor beaten down person struggling to survive

Instead these are the people I’m talking about:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/13/tim-gurner-u...

Basically every banker, vc, public company CEO, dictatorial district manager, slave driving dispatcher, cold calling scammer etc….

idiotsecant3• 2 years ago

some of the biggest names in history were almost certainly sociopaths. And they were sometimes quite a positive net force. Just about everyone can be put to productive use in the right place, i'm not sure we need to isolate (?) anyone.

dirtybirdnj7• 2 years ago

I agree that people should be given the opportunity for their natural gifts being used effectively.

I do NOT think "I'm a sociopath, sorry that doesn't bother me" is ever an acceptable resolution to the damage, pain and suffering they cause.

If you help 100 but you have to destroy 5 to get there, was it worth it? I do not think people deserve the benefit of the doubt to make this ethical call. The problem with sociopaths is they HAVE NO ETHICS OR MORALS.

You cannot "teach them to feel"... it's like trying to teach a starfish to speak. The only thing you can do is give them negative consequences to their actions. If their actions worked in the past they will repeat them. If those are negative behaviors, they don't see / care that they had to "step on some toes this time".... it simply becomes that toe stepping is now a normal point along an ever-escalating path of social violence and disregard for others.

The whole "we can't pathologies it because the sociopath doesn't think they have a problem" point is the main issue for me. If someone was smoking in an enclosed room... and others asked them to stop it would be cut and dry. But because the person is being socially manipulative instead of breathing toxic carcinogens it's acceptable? Bad words ok, bad oxygen BAD! Why is this so hard to understand that the bad social behavior is JUST AS TOXIC.

I completely reject this. Socially manipulative behavior is wrong and destructive. I don't care how bad your childhood was your sociopathic manipulation is not justified in any way.

dirtybirdnj7• 2 years ago

This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally.
Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible.

I find this interesting as it relates to the autism spectrum... there is pretty universal resistance to accommodating / understanding the difficulties people face. It seems like a really uphill battle to get people who benefit from their toxicity to voluntarily take a "more difficult" route than they otherwise can.

I suggest that we don't need to do anything with the APSD folks, what we need to do is normalize the idea that their behavior is abusive and support folks who are structurally disadvantaged via their behaviors.

If enough of regular society gets tired of their shit they will take corrective action... until their behavior "looks bad" to others they have no incentive to cooperate.

AndrewKemendo8• 2 years ago

Fully concur and I think you describe better what I mean by isolate

The idea of isolating those people is that we actively reject abusive narcissistic behavior with no qualifications. That means it’s a one strike you’re out rule socially for toxic behavior

slibhb2• 2 years ago

I think it's more likely that she's lying for attention (and a book deal) than it is that she's actually a sociopath. Since we're talking about subjective feelings, it's not like there's any way to knwo for sure.

I suppose if she killed someone and was managing this publicity blitz from jail it would add some credence.

pkoird• 2 years ago

Lying to thousands shamelessly for their own gain? How very... Sociopathic.

slibhb2• 2 years ago

Whether it's sociopathic depends on how she feels about it!

Cheer2171• 2 years ago

Someone who dedicates so much of your life pretending to be a sociopath just for publicity.... You'd have to be a sociopath to do that.

cladopa2• 2 years ago

I had the experience of dealing with clinically diagnosed pshycopaths. One of them was in my school, a kid that was very smart but too rational, you could feel there was something wrong with him. He did not have real friends so he tried threaten people into becoming his friend or else...

He was not using physical force, but using his mind in order to plan punishing people rationally.

He just could not understand the concept of friendship, as he could not feel it. He believed everybody else was faking it. He was a cynic.

cladopa2• 2 years ago

PostData: He got diagnosed as a 30 years old or so.

pi-e-sigma5• 2 years ago

How could he be 'very rational' and also 'threaten people to become his friends'?

rafaelmn• 2 years ago

I thought this fad of building identity on labels was dying down ? I have no idea if her diagnosis is right - doesn't sound pathological/needing a diagnosis.

Reading trough the article I don't feel I've gained any practical insights - just reads like someone trying to sound interesting by putting a label on themselves and explaining how it fits them.

helboi45• 2 years ago

I agree. We really need pop-identity-politics to die. It's like a race to find the most obscure and irrelevant form of oppression made to distract us from actual oppression.

BLKNSLVR5• 2 years ago

I am at the intersection of rarity and interesting!

No you're not, I am!

We all are ... unique snowflakes.

Or at least snowflakes.

wtfwhateven2• 2 years ago

the writer of the article is lying, she doesn't have a PhD and is using someone else's name, it's just an ad for another book

https://old.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_...

xerox13ster• 2 years ago

Well, I guess she isn’t lying about being a sociopath…

huytersd• 2 years ago

With the added “clout” of displaying a mostly male psychotropy as a female.

thesuitonym• 2 years ago

Actually it's becoming much more common for teenagers to label every single thing about themselves. There are certain boxes they have to fit in, and if they do fit, they have to fill the box entirely. You can have multiple labels, but there's no room for unlabeled activities, and if you participate in any label, you must do so entirely.

lacoolj• 2 years ago

Celexa does wonders for this

tgv2• 2 years ago

After years of study, intensive therapy and earning a Ph.D. in psychology, I can say that sociopaths aren’t “bad” or “evil” or “crazy.” We simply have ...

Holy moral vacuum, Batman. That is not true, at all. First, psychology doesn't do ethics. It tries (not very well, I may add) to find causes for behavior, emotions, feelings, and social and cognitive processes. But it doesn't justify nor condemn those. Second, stabbing someone with a pencil is bad. The person who does that is bad. Sure, they can redeem themselves, but then they still were bad when they did so.

The "we simply have..." part of the sentence is like saying "people with a low iq aren't dumb, they only have a harder time understanding complex issues". It's self-absolving bollocks.

BLKNSLVR5• 2 years ago

I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok = all lumberjacks are ok.

The fact they're attempting to speak on behalf of all is really starting on the wrong foot. Painting with a brush with the broadness of stereotypes.

Don't call me evil, I'm just misunderstood.

Without empathy I'd call into question their ability to judge bad, evil, or crazy for the rest of society that do feel empathy. It's like someone who is red/green colourblind defining what red is for the non-colourblind.

And 'crazy' is just 'we don't have a name for that particular thing yet': I'm not crazy, we call it antisocial personality disorder now, there's questions and a scale and everything. Not crazy.

francisofascii• 2 years ago

What I get from that comment is sociopaths are not motivated by evil behaviors. And so the comment aims to differentiate sociopaths from those who are out to kill and destroy.

tgv2• 2 years ago

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. First, behavior is not motivation. Second, if someone is evil is a moral judgement of behavior and intentions, not a clinical diagnosis. Third, there may be different "levels" of sociopathology, a spectrum if you will, but that doesn't excuse all of them.

wtfwhateven2• 2 years ago

https://old.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_...

this person is lying, she doesn't have a PhD, she's using someone else's name

yuck39• 2 years ago

I thought this was a joke at first. I guess her story adds up!

__jonas• 2 years ago

As far as I can tell from this reddit thread she is accused of this, but I don’t see 100% conclusive evidence of anything at all, am I missing something?

mikequinlan• 2 years ago

Here is her web site, with contact information (an email address): https://patricgagne.com/

Benlights• 2 years ago

Her about page on https://patricgagne.com/ says this

B.A. · University of California Los Angeles
M.A. · California Graduate Institute
PhD · California Graduate Institute of The Chicago School of Professional Psychology

n4r92• 2 years ago

It might be pedantic but according to Wikipedia the CGI awards a PsyD rather than a PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Graduate_Institute

This Wiki page has a little more about the differences between the two: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Psychology

It seems like the PsyD has more emphasis on clinical practise and (one supposes) less on theoretical research.

Hasu• 2 years ago

You've posted this a couple times here, but it's just unsubstantiated accusations on reddit. There are also several, equally unsubstantiated, claims to have found information that she is who she says she is.

That thread is very weird, it's really old and there are some users actively spinning different narratives across a long period of time.

rstuart4133• 2 years ago

To save you reading the reddit thread, here are two posts on it that seem to summarise what they discovered:

From https://old.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_... :

    Criminal justice researcher/licensed California therapist here.

    Here is "Patric Gagne's" real personal and professional identify as far as can be gleaned. Her real name is Patricia J Cagle (if anything about her is verifiably real) not Dr. Patricia Gagne. Notably, she did not file a "fictitious business name" in California to operate her clinical practice under a fictitious name. She wrote both her her Modern Love and memoir under a fictitious name and identity. She has conflicting explanations for why her name is "Patric" not Patricia. Clever but deceptive.

    She told the highly credulous NYT David Marchese that she she shortened her name to appear more "masculine than feminine." Her actual performer website states that she changed her name to prevent her clients from knowing who she really is. Her acting profile states that her false identity is "so far working:"

    "Patric" is also -looking at real information- an Improve theatre performer and claims that she hides her real identity so that her, presumably vulnerable psychotherapy clients, cannot find out anything about her real, private life. Her photos verify the actor and the author are the same woman

    She may or may not have graduated from UCLA and received a BA, but records cannot be found. (I have an undergraduate degree from Yale-easily located as are my graduate degrees from University of San Francisco). Her graduate degree, is a PsyD, not a Phd. It was granted from a sketch graduate school in LA. She does appear to have a provider number but not under her name or identity and it may or may not be as a MA counselor or PsyD.

    It is critical to state that the REAL Dr. Gagne is a much older, eminent Dr. of Sociology with 72 major peer reviewed articles in gender studies and interesting subjects like motorcyclists. I wrote her to alert her.

    Other than Modern Love, I could not find a single reference to any articles, studies or any-general readership article/study/ essay or any evidence of advocacy. Lies.

And, from https://old.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_... :

    I don’t see where it says it offered a phd, the website does mention a PsyD program. PsyD is also a psychology doctoral program but based in clinical skills not research and meant to be more of a professional program than academic. A lot of these predatory grad schools did/do PsyD programs instead as they are generally not as competitive as a phd, and are generally paid doctoral degrees as opposed to a phd which is normally funded.

Tantalising. It could be anything from a mostly truthful tale with a few deceptions to preserve the career of phycologist with a difficult personality to almost total bullshit. "Almost" because it would be an excellent example of what psychopathy can deliver.

readthenotes1• 2 years ago

What would you expect from a sociopath?

faster• 2 years ago

When I saw the headline I thought it was from the author of "Confessions of a Sociopath: A Life Spent Hiding in Plain Sight".

stareatgoats2• 2 years ago

This is an area where we don't know the answers yet, but we're fumbling along. The main question that is still up for debate is this:

Are people really completely set in their personalities, so that we can say that this person IS a psychopath, that person IS a liar, I AM an upstanding citizen etc. The tendency for claiming such clearly comes from our current zeitgeist with its propensity for fixing labels to people, but to what extent has such fixed characteristics factually been true, and for what categories of labels, regardless of epoch?

We (or at least I) don't know.

BLKNSLVR5• 2 years ago

This joke was told to me as "Luigi the Bridge Builder", but has come in many other forms:

https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcgonagall-the-bridge-buil...

Not the current zeitgeist, just how humans categorise things naturally.

stareatgoats2• 2 years ago

Heh, that's actually one of my favorite Norm Macdonald jokes. Didn't know that it wasn't his invention though, thanks.

And fwiw, yeah, this covers the conundrum nicely.

jokethrowaway• 2 years ago

This doesn't sound like the conventional definition of sociopathy (you still have empathy but act against it, feel guilty) but psychopathy (innate, lack of empathy)

First, I've heard about these unstoppable "impulses", it's more about being less risk averse, not caring about damage done to others, thinking you'll get through it successfully.

helboi45• 2 years ago

I think there is actually no clear definition of the difference between sociopathy and psychopathy that is agreed on

nikisweeting• 2 years ago

If nothing else, the comments here show me that we need a new word to describe people on the "sociopath spectrum" who intellectually decide to not be evil.

There is a reason ASPD requires the anti-social element to be diagnosable, but it seems we lack a popular word to describe ASPD without the AS. Psychopathy and sociopathy have too much cultural baggage because everyone thinks of extreme cases like American Psycho, or the most overt narcissistic sociopaths they've personally interacted with.

There is a whole class of people on the sociopath spectrum who go unnoticed because they're just better at hiding it and living normal lives, even if they don't feel emotions as strongly (or at all) compared to most people, they can decide to intellectually value other peoples experiences and simulate it.

I suspect there's also a lot of overlap with high functioning autism, where intellect and desire to model people accurately can make up for emotional hardware / mirror neuron deficiencies.

If we had less polarizing language to describe the spectrum of non-evil sociopathy, more people in this category would feel safe publicly describing their experiences, and the discourse wouldn't be dominated by grifters and subsequent backlash.

I think it's good to accept people on this spectrum as long as they chose to not be evil (and succeed at it), it is pointless judge people on their own internal experience of the world if it's not affecting others! They have every right to find community and support structures, and work towards integrating healthily with society, just like those with BPD, autism, bipolar, etc.

pcthrowaway• 2 years ago

we need a new word to describe people on the "sociopath spectrum" who intellectually decide to not be evil

Dexters?

neonate• 2 years ago

https://archive.ph/6rMGc

RecycledEle2• 2 years ago

Is it common for sociopaths to have a need to hurt others?

I only feel a need to defend the innocent, but when bad people.hurt the innocent, it is almost unbearable for me to stand aside and do nothing.

1vuio0pswjnm7• 2 years ago

Works where archive.ph is blocked:

https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=4419501177551&w=u9zd5r-YjP...

accfor1comment• 2 years ago

I’ve seen this narcissist in the New York Times with a similar article promoting her shitty book. Yawn. Personally I blame the journos for promoting this loser. Not believing any of this until I can sit down with her mother, etc. and see more proof and verify these stories. Though if she lies about a significant part of her life story that may be another sign she’s a sociopath. Still lame.

supernewsman• 2 years ago

Seriously. I’m getting so sick of this “yeah I’m a sociopath look at how groundbreaking this is, we are so edgy and journalistic and insightful” trend going around, when no, you are just annoying and weird. No one is going to buy your pseudo introspective book no matter how many cinematic cover photos you take. These articles need to stop.

There was another article that came across the same way, with this guy claiming humans don’t have “free will” but if you wanted to see any of his scientific “research” it just so happened that you also had to buy his book. Publications need to stop giving these attention seeking narcissists their supply for the love of god it’s becoming unbearable.

I always knew I was different, I didn't know I was a sociopath

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