New EVs Still Can't Beat the Efficiency of a Plug-In Hybrid

https://jalopnik.com/new-evs-still-can-t-beat-the-efficiency-of-a-plug-in-hy-1851294507

by rntn • 2 years ago

16 27 2 years ago

duped4• 2 years ago

New hybrids can't beat the efficiency of old gas powered sedans, because they're too heavy. The arms race that is car sizes in the US is insane.

I drive a 2021 Lexus hybrid that gets about 35 mpg (in practice, not what the EPA rating says). My buddy drives a 2001 Civic and gets about 42 mpg. I'm pretty sure that Civic is going to outlive both of us, while I doubt that the Lexus is going to last a decade.

And for reasons, I'm in the market for a car but don't want to pay EV prices. The PHEVs and hybrids are pretty compelling in terms of price, but their fuel economy leaves something to be desired. They're just too heavy.

idontwantthis3• 2 years ago

They are also so expensive. Niro hybrid: $27 k, phev: $34k

With the hybrid getting 53mpg you would need to drive a crazy number of miles to make back the difference, but that crazy number of miles would all be in short trips so I don’t see how it could happen.

duped4• 2 years ago

27k is reasonable for the price of a new car. Everything but the cheapest of vehicles is around there these days.

duffyjp• 2 years ago

Your Lexus is presumably an SUV? A bone stock 2024 Prius gets 57 mpg and has almost 200HP. I'm in a 2013 Prius C that gets nearly 50.

My previous car was a 2000 Lexus ES that got 17 mpg. I basically paid for the Prius' loan with gas savings.

I'm also in the market as 10 years is about the max in Wisconsin before everything goes to hell, and I'll probably get another hybrid. My wife had a PHEV for a while but we didn't save any money on fuel as electricity is expensive here.

harkinian2• 2 years ago

The hybrids use less gasoline for sure, when comparing apples to apples new car vs new car. Cost-effectiveness is more complicated.

However, if you take all the compromises of a tiny late-80s/early-90s Honda Civic, it'll do 50-60 MPG.

Gibbon1• 2 years ago

When I was living an working in San Francisco I drove a full sized passenger van that got 15mpg. Was okay since I was putting 4000 miles a year on it. Then my company moved. Running the numbers buying a used Prius was a small win based on gas savings. But then a trip to Marin and back in the van was probably $100 vs $40 for the Prius.

duped4• 2 years ago

It's not an SUV.

yumraj• 2 years ago

My wife had a PHEV for a while but we didn't save any money on fuel as electricity is expensive here.

Prius Prime owner here in CA, and this is especially true here. It’s almost a wash between gas and EV here, unless you have solar. In PG&E areas EVs make zero sense for non-solar customers.

CobaltFire• 2 years ago

Your comment on the Lexus is… not in alignment with reality. I won’t argue the relative merits of hybrid and PHEV, but if it’s the ES (the only non-SUV hybrid they make) then the statement that it won’t last 9 years is something you would need to back up. Toyota Hybrids are pretty well known to be reliable, and the ES is a particularly well designed/constructed Camry/Avalon.

For the record I drive a 2024 ES after test driving basically every PHEV out there and it’s so much more solid and well put together than everything else I drove… I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

I also drove a 2001 Civic and just helped a friend replace their 2001 Civic with a 2024 Corolla Hybrid. Vastly better car, same size, and not a bad price. Comparing a full size luxury sedan with a tin can that won’t pass current safety standards isn’t exactly helping your argument.

duped4• 2 years ago

It's a UX 250h which is classified as a compact crossover - but for all intents and purposes, it's a hatchback sedan. Looks like one, drives like one, sits on the same frame, is as big as a one, and has the cargo capacity of a hatchback to boot. I get 35 mpg in it. Great car, would highly recommend. I think if nothing in the world changed for the next ten years, it would hold up fine. But I forsee other issues that older sedans won't run into, especially with the inevitable number of repairs and availability of parts for the electronics.

The point is that if you just look at total carbon emissions, modern EVs and hybrids aren't better than old ICE sedans. A big part of the reason is weight, due to safety and creature comforts. What I'm lamenting is that hybrids don't do that much better than ICEs from 20 years ago when it comes to fuel economy - except for some standouts like the Prius.

Meanwhile, most manufacturers are just selling hybrid SUVs and crossovers, or EVs the size of a whale. Some of these cars they're selling have to be hybrids because of EPA mileage requirements, and they're going to struggle to get to where the EPA wants them (which is why Biden rolled back the pace of fuel economy standard changes just a few weeks ago - the manufacturers won't keep up).

nimos• 2 years ago

Wish they would make an electric vehicle with a generator. Pure electric drivetrain with 50-100 mile range battery then stick a ~50hp generator in the "frunk".

Seems like being able to pin the generator at optimal revs should make up for the inefficiency of the electrical losses? But not sure.

lm28469• 2 years ago

The BMW i3 has that

harkinian2• 2 years ago

Apparently also got discontinued. I didn't know that until now.

postalrat• 2 years ago

You are close to describing the chevy volt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

mouth• 2 years ago

You’re describing the now cancelled Chevy Volt. The second generation (2016-2019) was advertised to get you 54 miles on a full charge before the generator kicked on.

tom_• 2 years ago

https://www.mazda.co.uk/cars/mazda-mx-30-all-electric/mazda-... might be one example - series hybrid with Wankel engine.

The fuel economy does not actually sound very good, but presumably it's intended for use mainly as a plug-in EV that is suitable for longer journeys too.

dzhiurgis• 2 years ago

What is this optimising for?

If you after theoretic long trips - buy EV with 300-mile battery pack or straight up gas car. Your actual TCO will be lover in either case.

zipping1549• 2 years ago

You're also describing what chevy is working on recently (not the old Volt one)

djao2• 2 years ago

Wow, so I went and downloaded their "methodology" document. Some highlights:

In prior years, they made an attempt to estimate the true fuel consumption and emissions rate of gasoline cars (which is invariably higher than the EPA figures), but in this year's edition they reverted back to the EPA numbers because "To what extent [the prior year practice] is appropriate for new vehicles today is unclear". This makes gasoline cars and hybrids look better than they really are.

They assume that PHEVs drive 50% of their miles on mains electricity. This is, needless to say, a completely bogus assumption.

They randomly add 11 cents per kWh to the cost of nuclear power to account for possible future nuclear accidents. Okay, whatever.

Their "green score" function is heavily skewed to mask the damage inflicted by gasoline cars. The difference between a score of 71 (Toyota Prius) and 57 (Tesla Model Y) is about 0.5 cents of environmental cost per mile. The difference between a score of 30 (GMC Sierra) and 20 (Mercedes AMG) is 1 cent of environmental cost per mile. In reality there is a larger difference between the (bad) GMC Sierra and the (even worse) Mercedes AMG than there is between the Prius and the Tesla, but their "green score" makes it seem like the difference between a Prius and a Tesla is larger.

tzs• 2 years ago

They assume that PHEVs drive 50% of their miles on mains electricity. This is, needless to say, a completely bogus assumption

How is it "needless to say"? The average US driver averages about 38 miles per day. Nearly every PHEV for sale in the US a year ago [1] except for some high end sports cars that sell for $100k+ had an electric range of more of at least half of 38 miles. That makes it at least plausible that the average PHEV will in fact drive 50% of their miles in EV mode.

[1] https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15377500/plug-in-hybr...

djao2• 2 years ago

Simply put, the assumption is not factually true, based on actual owner surveys, for example https://theicct.org/publication/real-world-phev-us-dec22/

"Real-world electric drive share may be 26%-56% lower than assumed within the EPA labeling program."

"Weighting by number of vehicles per model, real-world fuel consumption averages are 42-67% higher than EPA label consumption"

pornel2• 2 years ago

This has Toyota's fingerprints all over it. It's all of Toyota's talking points. It's especially suspicious that the top list includes Toyota's Lexus RZ and bZ4X which are the worst by far among BEVs [1] in terms of efficiency.

[1] https://youtu.be/c10Ck84QgEI?t=1289

hnburnsy• 2 years ago

PHEV owners frequently don't plug in resulting in...

Real-world electric drive share may be 26%–56% lower and real-world fuel consumption may be 42%–67% higher than assumed within EPA’s labeling program for light duty vehicles.

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-ph...

idontwantthis3• 2 years ago

Are they just morons? Why would they buy a much more expensive car and not use the thing they bought?

Kirby64• 2 years ago

Battery longevity is related to number of charge cycles… which means for equivalent efficiency, larger range vehicles will last much longer (in terms of mileage) before needing a battery replacement. I don’t know why the Leaf or the crappy Mini Cooper EV would get high marks if their batteries will need replacing much sooner, since battery replacements generally total out a vehicle.

Seems like some very shoddy metrics used on this study…

pornel2• 2 years ago

Indeed. Leaf doesn’t have active thermal management for its battery, which noticeably shortens its lifespan.

Leaf can’t keep batteries cool enough during charging in hot weather, and can’t preheat them before charging in cold weather.

Leaf and Tesla S are two cars with over a decade of real-world data available, and Tesla’s degrade 1-2% per year, Leaf 2-3% per year.

New EVs Still Can't Beat the Efficiency of a Plug-In Hybrid

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