Fitness trackers find new symptom of depression: body temperature

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article285256032.html

by sizzle • 2 years ago

156 108 2 years ago

amelius3• 2 years ago

Feels like we're living in the dark ages of correlations. Given today's compute power and availability of medical data, why wasn't this already a well known fact?

vanderZwan2• 2 years ago

Do you have the slightest idea how many variables to check for correlations there are in a biological system as complex as the human body? And how few of those variables can be reliably measured and analyzed at the same time in most of these studies?

amelius3• 2 years ago

Actually, a lot is being recorded ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiomics

ben_w• 2 years ago

It's easy to find correlations, having enough evidence to rule out mere coincidence is harder.

http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

amelius3• 2 years ago

That's why you need more than two handfuls of datapoints ...

maxglute• 2 years ago

Maybe AC ownership correlated with depression during summer. Being hot sucks.

iamthirsty• 2 years ago

The article talks about self-thermoregulation — so I don't know if those would exactly be correlated.

beAbU2• 2 years ago

Many parts of the world don't have AC, and many people in those parts are not depressed.

Source: it's 22h00 here and its probably about 28C in my bedroom now. The walls are radiating heat into the room after baking in the sun the whole day. All my windows are open and ceiling fan is on. I'll be sleeping on top of a towel tonight as to not destroy my mattress.

I'm definitely not depressed... I think.

tanseydavid• 2 years ago

<hot-or-not> That's HOT!

Scoundreller• 2 years ago

Dry or humid heat?

NoPicklez3• 2 years ago

Depressive seasons are often associated with Winters where people are stuck inside in gloomy weather, lack of daylight etc

Here in Australia, summers are usually associated with happiness, social gatherings, beach, BBQ's

The article talks more about self regulation regardless of outside temperature influence.

standardly• 2 years ago

I have a hard time making sense of parts of this article.

RE: Treatment:

"“What is we can track the body temperature of people with depression to time heat-based treatments well?”

"If thermoregulation is a symptom of depression, as the Oura Ring study suggests, temperature treatment could be an effective way to treat depression."

Thermoregulation is a symptom of depression? How do they reach the conclusion that "temperature treatment" could treat depression, and why do they not define what "temperature treament" even is? As someone with MDD I seriously doubt making myself warm more often is going to affect my symptoms, but it's certainly an alluring concept as I do enjoy saunas.

francisofascii• 2 years ago

This is just my hunch, but I think temperature treatment is the wrong conclusion to this finding. When someone is sick with a virus and has a fever, people suggest taking ibuprofen to lower the fever effectively masking the symptoms, but that does nothing to address the underlying cause.

I think this finding can be helpful is trying to find other ways to reduce inflammation in the body (assuming inflammation is driving the temperature increase) Interventions like diet changes could lead to both less inflammation and less depression.

gmuslera• 2 years ago

It looks like a medical anti pattern, deal with the symptom that the base disease will cure itself, somewhat, maybe magically.

I know that forcing a happy face could lighten up a bit your mood, but this is going too far, and maybe is too simplistic in its view of depression.

catskul2• 2 years ago

A few things things:

- causation is difficult to establish

- symptoms can sometimes themselves be a proximal cause

- treatment of symptoms is one way to determine causation

Peregrine1• 2 years ago

There’s research that getting really hot (ie with hot saunas) can affect depression. One interesting supporting finding is that if you run around but don’t get hot (ie don’t sweat) then the exercise doesn’t do much for depression

alexey-salmin• 2 years ago

The article is not very good, but the overall direction seem to check out quite well with other research. There seem to be a proven correlation between inflammation and depression. Furthermore anti-inflammatory drugs seem to provide efficient anti-depressant care in some cases. They would lover your body temperature too.

Conversely I can imagine regular visits to a sauna to affect chronic inflammation processes in your body in some way and then potentially affect the depression too.

Overall I have a strong feeling that depression itself is very akin to fever: a symptom of a very wide range of different problems that require different treatments. Sometimes just the symptomatic care is sufficient, sometimes it's even essential or else you die. Anti-inflammatory drugs are a thing and so are the anti-depressants. But studying and treating depression as a distinct disease probably makes no more sense than studying and treating fever as a distinct disease.

pedalpete• 2 years ago

Apparently this isn't new knowledge, a study from 2003.

The study not only states that body temperature is higher, but also the mechanism by which this occurs which is related to 5-HTTLPR deletion.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12759553/

DiabloD3• 2 years ago

I was going to say, I thought we've known this for at least two decades.

Depression is considered an inflammation-associated disorder, and improper/constant activation of cross-reactive inflammation pathways eats into mitochondrial energy production (The Powerhouse Of the Cell(tm)), which means energy that would go keeping you warm isn't.

The body, for some adaptive reason (and presumably a good one), doesn't turn up energy production to compensate.

throwawaaarrgh• 2 years ago

I don't know if this is a wide phenomenon, but when I get angry or frustrated, my body temp skyrockets. I have to take off clothes I get hot so fast. Happens mostly when I'm working from home and getting pissed off at the computer.

iisan7• 2 years ago

well, if some of the reasoning in this thread is correct, maybe you need to take off your clothes to prevent yourself getting angry!

okr• 2 years ago

hey now

themaninthedark• 2 years ago

Then I should be great since I like to take off my clothes all the time!

kaycebasques• 2 years ago

First time hearing about Oura Ring. Looks cool! That price though... ouch.

aitchnyu• 2 years ago

Moore's law exists, but somehow I feel rings are Theranos Edison among chunky watches and heart straps.

wiredfool3• 2 years ago

They're pretty good, though battery life is an issue with some firmware revs. (n-2: bad, n-1: 100% better, current: iffy). So far my wife's ring has lasted well longer than my Apple Watch.

qiine• 2 years ago

apparently Samsung is preparing something

https://www.tomsguide.com/news/samsung-galaxy-ring

FraterSKM• 2 years ago

I feel like at some point we're gonna discover depression is basically some kind of inflammatory disease

deminature2• 2 years ago

My experience with covid is that severe post-disease inflammation can cause wild neurological symptoms including anxiety and depression. I had a 'mild' case and still suffered significant, long-lasting inflammation. I see very few people talking about this outside special-interest covid discussion boards. Surprisingly, my doctor was already aware of the destructive potential of inflammation for mental health.

7thaccount• 2 years ago

Sometime early during the pandemic I believe I got Covid as my breathing got really messed up in a way my medications couldn't help and I never have asthma issues during that time of the year (no typical symptoms though). I noticed not long after that occurrence that any caffeine consumption would give me massive anxiety attacks and a heart beat out of rhythm. I've never had issues with either before. Heart stress test found nothing. I stopped caffeine for over a year. Funny thing was I found out that this wasn't a super rare occurrence either. I met other people randomly (I didn't bring it up) that quit caffeine after Covid due to a sudden intolerance for it.

Covid is absolutely wild.

xattt• 2 years ago

Depression disorders as treatable, “non-commitable” (i.e. won’t be thrown into the loony bin for it) condition are a fairly recent concept. I would not be surprised if it’s determined that “depression” has various etiologies.

That is, you wouldn’t tell someone that suffered complex trauma over a long period of time that they have “chronic inflammation” and tell them to take Vitamin D. However, an explanation of chronic inflammation may be more applicable to someone that doesn’t have that history.

To add to this, silos of medical specialties and their associated distinct ways of thinking will impede novel treatments. Any well-paid specialized professional will have a hard time breaking out of their ways of thinking.

monknomo2• 2 years ago

I mean, inflammation markers are very common in mood disorders. The direction of causality is interesting to me. I tend to believe that there is a disease process somewhere we have not yet found that causes this inflammation, rather than feeling sad (or manic) causes inflammation

mewpmewp2• 2 years ago

You know there's so much talk on many physical symptoms being "psychogenic" or whatever. Even psychologists or general medical professionals will claim that whatever symptoms you are feeling are probably psychogenic.

It makes me wonder if many things might be the other way around. That there's clear physical reasons for many mental or psychological problems.

It's just always easier to claim something is psychogenic when you don't know the cause with hopes that it's enough to placebo the patient to calm down about anything they might be feeling.

When someone, especially a professional claims that whatever you are feeling is psychogenic it feels like a dismissal of what you are feeling. A person is feeling something wrong and essentially they are being told that you are imagining it, and it actually does not matter. Which in a way makes it worse, because not only you are feeling it, you are also being told you are crazy to feel it.

And that there's no hope or solution for it, because you are imagining it, therefore it can't be solved, or you don't know how to solve it in the first place.

naasking3• 2 years ago

That it's psychogenic doesn't mean they're imagining it, or even that it's not physical. The brain is a physical organ that is responsible for regulating bodily processes after all. Mental processes have direct and obvious physical effects on other organs, so of course they can also have subtler dysregulatory effects as well.

Sometimes the cause or treatment might be physical, sometimes it might be mental, because the mental intervention might be just as effective, even with our current poor understanding of the brain.

kaba02• 2 years ago

It doesn’t mean that they are imagining it. Why is it hard to see that the organ that controls the whole body has a say into pain/inflammation, and all that? It can send my heart rate to the sky before a presentation, make my stomach ready for digestion on the sight of a billboard, etc.

I don’t know, the reverse that mental diseases don’t cause physical symptoms seems harder to believe.

It all just shows that we don’t take mental health seriously enough.

vjk8002• 2 years ago

I have a history of mental problems and I mostly attribute it to physical problems. At some point I realized that chronic pain prevented me from sleeping well and when I don't sleep well, I feel like crap. When this goes on for a long time, I don't even notice the link anymore since being in pain and sleeping bad just becomes the normal state of things.

I've been able to manage my pains by a combination of lots of aerobic exercising and yoga/stretching type workouts. I'm not in perfect condition yet, but things are certainly better.

I wonder if all or most of depression/anxiety on people is just some physical problem/pain preventing them from sleeping well and bad sleep causing them to feel like shit.

DoreenMichele4• 2 years ago

Somatopsychic is the word for physical ailments with mental health and emotional side effects.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/somatopsychic

It seems to me that linguistically we talk about "feeling" physically and also "feeling" emotionally because those two things are deeply intertwined.

lhuser123• 2 years ago

https://brainenergy.com/

In his book, Dr. Chris Palmer says “Mental disorders are metabolic disorders of the brain”.

Aurornis• 2 years ago

Depressive disorders are understood to involve alterations in inflammation pathways. SSRIs and SNRIs have been documented to induce alterations in multiple inflammatory pathways, coinciding with improvement of depression symptoms.

That doesn’t imply that depression is a simple result of inflammatory processes, it just shows that depression is a cross-cutting alteration to the body’s function on many levels.

In some cases, depression does result from physical processes in the body going wrong. However, I think too many people try to pin mental health conditions on underlying physical problems that don’t exist. It’s very common for people to want to explain away their depression rather than accept that mental health treatment is the way forward.

al_borland• 2 years ago

Is it possible that these physical markers are a result of how a person tends to live when depressed?

When I’m in a depressive state I’m generally eating garbage food, drinking a lot, and not sleeping much (staying up late, but still needing to get up for work). All of this is going to lead to a lot of inflammation and other negative physiological outcomes.

I’m dealing with this right now. I have mild chest pain, and have for weeks. This has happened before, cleaning up my diet, even just for a few days, made it go away.

It’s somewhat a chicken and egg problem to fix though. Mentally, things suck, so I want to keep doing what I’m doing, which causes physical discomfort. Overriding the desire to eat and drink the bad stuff, through sheer force of will, will ultimately alleviate the physical issues, and at the same time clear my my head to some degree… at least until something else pushes me over the edge. When I get pushed back into it, it’s normally just looking for a mental escape from discomfort. If I simply went to sleep instead, I’d probably be all good. I say simply, but that’s always been the hard part for me.

agos4• 2 years ago

too many people try to pin mental health conditions on underlying physical problems that don’t exist

it wouldn't be the first disorder where after years of "it's psychological, there is no underlaying physical issue" it turns out that there is an underlying physical problem, see the history of gastric ulcers

caditinpiscinam• 2 years ago

I could see this being true when depression arises spontaneously. Do you think this could be the case as well for depression that's triggered by life events?

talldatethrow2• 2 years ago

You could probably argue that if you have these issues you may still be coping ok, but when life events hit on top they bring it to a point where it crosses into debilitating.

BiteCode_dev• 2 years ago

There is a bidirectional relationship.

roenxi• 2 years ago

There are roughly 2 ways to define illness - a cause leading to symptoms (HIV virus -> AIDS) or symptoms without a defined cause (eg, nausea).

Depression seems to be the second type, so I'm not sure it makes sense to talk about that sort of discovery. It seems self evident to me that sometimes depression will be caused by inflammation. Other times it'll be caused by other things. Brains are delicate self modifying machines, they can go haywire from pretty much anything and nothing. We can only find that some factors were underweighted or overweighted by the medical community under some circumstances. Depending on what definition of "depression" gets used.

zxlu• 2 years ago

https://archive.is/aoIiM

paulpauper• 2 years ago

About one in five adults wore a fitness tracker, either as a band or smartwatch, in 2020, according to the Pew Research Center.

I'm sure it's higher now and yet obesity rates keep going up. Shows how ineffective these solutions are. People are more active and tracking their calories yet weight gain is unstoppable.

nsillik• 2 years ago

pepel

DoreenMichele4• 2 years ago

Food is getting less nutritious.* I think this is a largely overlooked factor in the obesity epidemic.

* https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrie...

patmorgan23• 2 years ago

It's definitely a constellation of causes, the continued loss of third places, the continued growth of auto centric suburbs and office parks, etc

naasking3• 2 years ago

I think it's mainly that food is just more abundant. It's literally everywhere now. You can't go out and do something without passing easy to acquire, relatively cheap and high calorie food to tempt you, or to satisfy every passing snacking impulse. That just wasn't the case for most of human history, even most of the 20the century.

NoPicklez3• 2 years ago

That's a very generalised take with a big assumption.

I don't think wearing a smartwatch will immediately shed you weight. You actually need to actively put in the work both through exercise and a proper diet.

A watch is just a tool that supports the rest of it.

More people might be consuming diet beverages as well and yet weights might be going up, that may not necessarily be the failing of the diet beverage.

inglor_cz2• 2 years ago

I think that at this point of the obesity epidemics, we should entertain the idea that there are non-behavioral factors in play as well. Not just "putting in the work", but a more complex metabolic picture.

As we are talking about smartwatches, let me chime in with my personal, N == 1 observation.

I bought a smartwatch on the day that Russia invaded Ukraine (the timing was an accident, though). So, two years by now. I set up 10 thousand steps to be the goal and since then, I met that goal 98 % of the time, missing only 13 days. I loved walking before, but I stayed home when it was too hot, too cold or too rainy; now I go out anyway, so my daily amount of steps has significantly increased. By how much? Not sure, but 30 per cent at least, possibly up to 40 per cent. My daily average now is just slightly under 13 thousand a day.

Now, there are visible and sometimes measurable improvements to my health:

* lower blood pressure (by some 8/4)

* lower resting heart rate (around 48-49, used to be more like 60),

* better immunity, I am no longer particularly sensitive to wind, rain etc.; I believe that this comes from constant exposure to all sorts of weather when walking outside,

* my knees have improved so much that I feel like being 20 again. I no longer remember which one gave me so much trouble that I almost ended up in surgery in 2017. They are both just fine.

But one parameter hasn't budged even the tiniest bit: my weight oscillates around the same base level. Something inside defends the set point, much like something else defends my body temperature.

talldatethrow2• 2 years ago

I had a gf that joined a female dance/pilates type gym and went religiously, yet actually gained weight over the year. When I told her that the two scoops of protein powder she was taking at lunch were probably causing weight gain because no girl needs an additional 60 grams of protein on top of a well balanced diet we already had, she got mad. Eventually we broke up because I can't deal with someone that can't have a logical discussion. She's now even heavier, yet still going to that gym years later.

lethologica• 2 years ago

Wearing a fitness tracking device gives you this illusion of working on your health and fitness without actually doing so.

I know many people who wear Whoop bands and swear by it but month after month their clothing gets just a little tighter and their double chins just a little bigger.

DoreenMichele4• 2 years ago

Ironically, heating people up actually can lead to rebound body temperature lowering that lasts longer than simply cooling people down directly, as through an ice bath

Sounds to me like there is unrecognized infection causing a low-grade fever and heat treatments kill infection, allowing the fever to break.

Mistletoe• 2 years ago

Interesting, considering the following.

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/01/human-body-te...

The researchers determined that the body temperature of men born in the early to mid-1990s is on average 1.06 F lower than that of men born in the early 1800s. Similarly, they determined that the body temperature of women born in the early to mid-1990s is on average 0.58 F lower than that of women born in the 1890s. These calculations correspond to a decrease in body temperature of 0.05 F every decade.

naasking3• 2 years ago

People are now also taller, with more body mass but possibly less muscle mass, likely less fit, and have clothes of likely better quality. Unclear how these factors would affect final body temp overall.

quickthrower2• 2 years ago

https://archive.is/aoIiM

fpiacenza• 2 years ago

Body temperature is regulated by norepinephrine.

ex3ndr• 2 years ago

I am wondering if you can just cool down your body to fix it. I had panic attacks in the past and now from time to time i am experience mild anxiety. Eventually i learned that hot shower or hot bed (i have 8sleep) actually increases anxiety, making my bed colder calms anxiety. This makes sense since anxiety and many other disorders are just overloading the body and cooling down stops the chemical processes that causes them.

svrtknst• 2 years ago

Not sure about "fix" but cooling the body via hot showers is a fairly common recommendation for anxiety relief, especially prior to sleep.

Supposedly, if you cool the body down externally (cold shower, cold environment) it will try to increase body temp, but if you take a hot shower or sauna, the body will instead try to lower its temperature.

lazyasciiart2• 2 years ago

Drinking hot tea will also help you stay cool externally, as people in some areas seem to have known for a long time https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/a-hot-drink-on...

antoniojtorres• 2 years ago

Today I learned about the diving reflex and why it’s helpful to dunk your face in cold water. It can help with anxiety according to my therapist.

aszantu7• 2 years ago

maybe weird... I'm suffering from migraine sometimes, my face starts feeling cold, including teeth and hard palate. So I measured and it was 33 c°, told a few doctors and got no response, still looking for a cause/solution. I'm also a depression sufferer, and the days after seem to be more anxious. Tried to go to the sauna with the symtoms, but couldn't handle more than 20 minutes last time. Felt better right after, but got more cold afterwards. Could be perimenopausal (40, female).

I've been tracking food for a while (elimination diet works for my depression), and the days leading up to the attack, I had some mixed foods, tsatziki and some curry sauce where the sauce tasted weird. AND I ate kinda low fat the last few days. Also no doctor could tell me how that is connected, they just try to put me on statins. Probably lean mass hyper responder, no proof though.

Within the keto community low body temperature was mentioned a few times, some of them take crazy amounts of iodine. Not sure I want to do that.

been collecting for a while https://github.com/cutestuff/FoodDepressionConundrum/blob/ma...

jacquesm2• 2 years ago

If 33C is your core temp that's way low. You should escalate that beyond just telling doctors, it may be a serious blood pressure issue (or your thermometer might be off!).

aszantu7• 2 years ago

it's only the case when I have migraines, 33 is between the upper lip and gums, below the tongue it's higher more like 36. But thanks a lot, will go to the hospital next time I've got cold face+migraine!

asimovfan2• 2 years ago

I am not a doctor but i think 33 degrees celcius means you need to go to the ER.. or that your measurent device is off. I cannot see doctors letting you leave the hospital like that

Someone• 2 years ago

The OP wrote

my face starts feeling cold, including teeth and hard palate. So I measured and it was 33 c°, told a few doctors and got no response

I read that as they measured the temperature of their face. Then, 33°C isn’t outside normal range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_temperature: “Normal human skin temperature on the trunk of the body varies between 33.5 and 36.9 °C (92.3 and 98.4 °F), though the skin's temperature is lower over protruding parts, like the nose, and higher over muscles and active organs.”

That page also says “Recording skin temperature presents extensive difficulties”, so that 33°C may not be very accurate.

dronienothong2• 2 years ago

Perhaps you have Beriberi and the extra thiamine from keto foods like the meat is helping?

aszantu7• 2 years ago

looking into it, thanks for the pointer!

cperciva• 2 years ago

40 year old female with depression and hypothermia screams Hashimoto's disease to me. Have you had your TSH checked?

aszantu7• 2 years ago

it's within the ranges, nothing wrong with tyroid - even took a little iodine on the side to test if it does something - there is this test where you put iodine on your skin, and if it gets absorbed within 10 minutes, you're low on iodine - I'm not,

all the bloodwork looks normal except for cholesterol (cuz high fat low carb) - see cholesterol code for that

wiredfool3• 2 years ago

My wife has gone through perimenopause for a while now (ages really, probably O(15 years)), and the number of potential symptoms connected to it are immense, while the awareness from medical providers is pretty minimal. Mental issues, Food/blood sugar stuff, the well known hot flashes, cold flashes, the works.

What's worked for her is HRT, and more recently, intermittent fasting. (food between noon and 8pm only, but whatever in that time) It's really worth getting hormone levels checked and adjusted.

aszantu7• 2 years ago

do you, by any chance, know about how to get the needed hormones from food? Two weeks ago I found offal in a japanese store. Wondering if it would do something, to eat pork uterus or so... I know it's not everyone's choice, but I can't stop thinking about it

austin-cheney• 2 years ago

The commonality between manic depression and ADHD is low serotonin up take. The primary role of serotonin is mood regulation, but the consequences of poor mood regulation are complex even if the problem is simple. Converse that against dopamine deficiency which is a complex problem with limited consequences that plagues ADHD but not so much manic depression.

Low serotonin can result in metabolic inefficiencies which means poor body temperature and/or weight gain/loss out of norm even with a perfect diet. Over correcting with too much serotonin results in different mood irregularities like nightmares and anxiety and more.

The primary limitation with these problems, aside from metabolic issues, are poor decision skills that in isolation are either prematurely considered or too emotionally weighted.

penjelly• 2 years ago

Today I'm signed up to become a specialist for allergies and food intolerance, in the hopes to find something that works

not a doctor and this isnt medical advice. It may be low stomach acid if you struggle with digestion? Non-scientific but try an at home burp test for 3-5 mornings. i know someone with chronic low acid for years that went unnoticed, and doctors didnt spot it after trying PPIs, etc. Odds are low, but might be worth looking into

hasty_pudding• 2 years ago

Probably inflammation related.

reify• 2 years ago

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-51567-w#Sec1

A massive document saying nothing of use.

Amongst others; Oura Health Oy (#134650) also provided funding for this work.

For these daily self-reported temperature assessments, participants used their own thermometers (which were not provided by the study, and which may have been of any brand), and we did not ask participants to report the type of thermometer used or the method of body temperature assessment. Not good research criteria!

The PROMIS T-scores: They appear to have an 8 question questionaire for every illness on the planet.

https://www.healthmeasures.net/score-and-interpret/interpret...

Can anyone really do a diagnostic test with just 8 questions and conclude that someone has a mental illness. Absolutely not! Yet they have us believe that you can.

Psychiatrists have been using short questionaires for years to assess anxiety and depression and most forms of mental illness. None of them work or are accurate.

mcmcmc• 2 years ago

Nit: mental health surveys/assessments are a screening tool, not intended to be used on their own for a diagnosis. They work as they are intended to, identifying individuals who are at risk or displaying common symptoms so that mental health professionals can then proceed with further testing and discussion to make a diagnosis. They’re not always used correctly, but they are useful.

ThinkBeat• 2 years ago

Imagine standing at top of edge cliff with your feed halfway into the air, teetering, swaying a little. For a lot of people that would increase their body temprature, and casue anxiety and stress.

Yes they would have elevated body temperature, but that does not indicate that it is the symptom to focus upon.

With a severe depression a person will go through periods of extreme anxiety, guilt, for some suicidal thoughts, and in general serious continuous stress. Parts of the brain get rewired, with long term depression.

They will experience periods of elevated body temperature, heck high enough to be categorized as a fever in some cases, but lowering the body temperature, for instance, with a cool bath or cool wrappings, is not going to change or alleviate depression.

hdanirwin• 2 years ago

My wife's therapist recently instructed her to start plunging her face in ice when she gets overwhelmed with anxiety (mostly because she was refusing to consider meds)

The ice plunge is generally understood to help by stimulating the vagus nerve and parasympathetic nervous system. But I wonder if it is related to this too.

Fitness trackers find new symptom of depression: body temperature

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