Paris Vote Targets SUV Drivers with Parking Fees Set to Triple

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-03/paris-vote-targets-suv-drivers-with-parking-fees-set-to-triple

by mfiguiere • 2 years ago

131 111 2 years ago

gambiting3• 2 years ago

It's amazing, I wish more cities around Europe would follow - I'm not sure how I feel about Parisian residents being exempt though. People living in Paris will have a parking permit allowing them to park on their street already, why do they also need an exemption from higher parking prices elsewhere?

jedberg2• 2 years ago

People living in Paris will have a parking permit allowing them to park on their street already, why do they also need an exemption from higher parking prices elsewhere?

My guess is that it was either the only way they could get it to pass, or because they're doing it to soak all the tourists coming in for the Olympics.

julienchastang• 2 years ago

Who in the world rents an SUV (or a car for that matter) to get around Paris? Edit: best option is to park outside city limits and take public transit. Maybe that's the point.

iforgotpassword2• 2 years ago

I wish Germany would follow, but well... There are a few cities in Germany that are rather progressive in that regard, but I wouldn't hold my breath for this in East Germany. :)

gruez5• 2 years ago

For a policy that's ostensibly designed to fight air pollution and "reclaim streets for pedestrians and cyclists", penalizing vehicle tonnage seems like a weird way of achieving it. If you want to fight air pollution, charging based on emissions like the ULEZ in London[1] seems like a much more effective way of doing so, especially since a 20 year old sedan can easily emit more air pollution than a recent SUV. As for "reclaim[ing] streets for pedestrians and cyclists", the bigger problem is arguably on-street parking itself and the space it occupies, rather than the of the cars occupying them. If you want to create more space for pedestrians and cyclists, replace on-street parking with cycling lanes or sidewalks, and the market (for parking spaces) will take care of the rest.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Low_Emission_Zone

vosper• 2 years ago

Perhaps it’s because getting hit by a SUV tends to be much worse for a passenger or cyclist than being hit by a smaller car?

ustolemyname• 2 years ago

1. Larger vehicles pose a much greater threat to pedestrians and cyclists, both from frequency and consequence of incidents.

2. Tire emissions are more toxic than exhaust [1] and tire wear is dramatically greater on heavier vehicles. This is about air pollution in the city, not climate change globally.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre...

blibble• 2 years ago

not to mention the road damage caused is to the fourth power of the axle load

ToucanLoucan5• 2 years ago

2. Tire emissions are more toxic than exhaust [1] and tire wear is dramatically greater on heavier vehicles. This is about air pollution in the city, not climate change globally.

Is there any info on how this impacts the environmental benefits of EVs? Or is the lack of combustion still a net gain?

zihotki• 2 years ago

There is a simple solution - use a small electric car/microcar with small battery for driving in the city.

jjtheblunt• 2 years ago

the BMW i3 fits that, as did the Fiat 500e?

(i had a 2014 BMW i3, and it was super weird and super useful for just such situations, including suburbia in my case)

tokai• 2 years ago

Particle pollution from car tires are much worse from heavy vehicles. Apparently recent research suggest that emissions tires are much larger and more dangerous than exhaust emissions.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/tire-pollution-toxic-chemical...

wepple2• 2 years ago

This seems to be pretty wildly left out of the gas->electric push then?

I’m not saying it makes electrification less valuable, but rather the push for electric has very much been sold as “solving” emissions (with some minor debate about the emissions of manufacturing & supply chain)

I guess electrification is phase 1, tire compound science is going to have to be phase 2?

gruez5• 2 years ago

From the article:

Tires release 100 times the amount of volatile organic compounds as a modern tailpipe, says an analyst.

If that's the case, the policy is still strange by giving electric cars a significantly higher weight limit, even though the difference in emissions is negligible.

bigbillheck• 2 years ago

penalizing vehicle tonnage seems like a weird way of achieving it

There's probably not that much variation in automobile density, so regulating those that are heavier is a good proxy for those that are larger.

And even if the number of parking spots is the same, a row of little cars people can see over and between is better than a row of big SUVs that they can't.

tmnvix2• 2 years ago

a row of little cars people can see over and between is better than a row of big SUVs that they can't

An underappreciated criticism of modern vehicles.

Diminishes the visibility of and for cyclists as well.

I'm 5'11 and as a pedestrian SUVs and 'trucks' block my visibility. Not to mention that along with the 'ride height' you get a front bumper that looks designed to just flatten you (you'd be forgiven for thinking this was intentional given the fetish for 'aggressive' styling). In addition you get the added bonus of much higher headlights. Why can't we at least keep these closer to the road like on real trucks, buses, and vans?

Regulators really dropped the ball on this one. Is there actually any limit to how large a personal vehicle can get? Seems like a massive oversight due to a fixation on safety of occupants to the detriment of everyone else.

From a personal point of view, I think people who buy these bloated vehicles should consider how they would feel if their neighbours all decided minibuses were an acceptable means of personal conveyance.

maxglute• 2 years ago

I just don't like having large vehicles around as a pedestrian and cyclist, anything that looks like I would get crushed under the car instead of over the hood, and don't mind them being specifically targetted/penalized.

stefan_• 2 years ago

People interested in and passionate about transportation in cities have long been warning that it doesn't solve anything if you just replace every combustion engine car with a (likely bigger) electric car, and incentives for them are wholly absurd in urban spaces.

gambiting3• 2 years ago

The thing is that there are multiple things that are problems and which can have independent(and even contradictory) solutions. Like for instance - cars cause noise and pollution in cities where people live and breathe.

Solution: give large incentives for people to buy EVs instead, so you solve the noise and pollution problems(not entirely, but in a large part).

But obviously that does nothing to the lack of parking spaces, people using/not using public transit, cycling etc etc etc. It's just one of the sides of a very complex cube.

lkdfjlkdfjlg• 2 years ago

penalizing vehicle tonnage seems like a weird way of achieving it

It's not a "weird way", it's a good heuristic.

gruez5• 2 years ago

You say "good heuristic", I say "half-assing it", especially when you consider a system to determine which cars are eligible for the charge would involve some sort of vehicle model database, and it would be equally easy to have the system work off of emissions rather than tonnage.

tgv2• 2 years ago

the market (for parking spaces) will take care of the rest

Where does this Aynesque belief in the invisible hand come from?

toomuchtodo• 2 years ago

Religious economic beliefs (some flavor of libertarianism).

gruez5• 2 years ago

It's "Aynesque belief" to recognize that removing the supply of parking spots will disincentivize people from driving into the city?

CalRobert7• 2 years ago

To be fair the market was so good at turning parking in to better land uses the US spent eighty years making it illegal to build... Anything, really, without oceans of parking.

fullspectrumdev• 2 years ago

It’s to get rid of SUV driving arseholes - not really emissions.

If you are driving an SUV in a city, there’s a decent probability you are an arsehole.

jedberg2• 2 years ago

Just in time for the Olympics!

trgn4• 2 years ago

It is so awesome to see how so many European cities are calming traffic.

For americans who haven't visited in 10-15 years, the difference is mindblowing, it's something you _feel_. (E.g. brussels, paris, London, many many smaller ones). It's something I hadn't been able to imagine, the airiness, the quiet at night, how relaxed it is, ... unreal.

ToucanLoucan5• 2 years ago

I dream of anything even remotely like this, but that would NEVER fly here. The middle class is absolutely in love with their fucking SUVs and trucks. We'd sooner get Basic Income than any regulation that aims at those bloated class signifiers.

mc322• 2 years ago

SUVs in themselves are not class signifiers; particular SUVs are, like the MB G class, etc. people buy SUVs mostly because they’re practical.

They don’t buy them as a signal of class. There are exceptions, of course.

CalRobert7• 2 years ago

If it helps, I'm in an affluent part of the Netherlands and you see some very swanky cargo bikes signifying class. Cars too in fairness, but still.

Not gonna lie, I ordered an urban arrow today (nothing fancy!) And I'd love to show it off back in the states.

mlinksva• 2 years ago

That's OK (sarcasm), Basic Income without cheap transportation and housing (each of which huge private vehicles are detrimental to) is Sisyphean.

politelemon• 2 years ago

Interesting that your perspective helped me understand why I feel different whenever I return to London from my US travels. I get a sense of relief that isn't related to being back home.

That said I've seen quite a few people here trying to stuff their oversized SUVs into streets that just weren't made for them. But they insist. I can only wish that we had the regulatory gonads to do the same as Paris is announcing!

gdilla• 2 years ago

wait what? London streets are streams of cars moving very. very. slowly. it's definitely discouraging to have and use a car there but its not like there isn't a ton of traffic.

CalRobert7• 2 years ago

Left the US eleven years ago and every time I go back to stroadsville USA I HATE it. I can't imagine my kids walking there. Even the "good" cities are horrendously bad.

gimmeThaBeet• 2 years ago

I'll admit I live under a rock so I've honestly never heard the term stroad. Looked at images and was like "ah, okay, right. Where I live..."

fishywang• 2 years ago

Even if we just enforce compact parking spots it would be miles better than what we have today, you know, just like how people don't park their ICE cars on EV-only spots, that SUVs would actually don't park on spots marked as compact only.

xyst• 2 years ago

America needs to follow. Make parking cost $100/hr with fines exceeding $2-3K. I would support this. Get all of these SUV/suburban-idiots off the road.

para_parolu• 2 years ago

Having large family won’t be fun

whazor• 2 years ago

Volkswagen Touran seems to be within the 1600kg limit.

robben1234• 2 years ago

American car companies push for large vehicles because those are exempt from strict emission standards. And the rest eventually started following because the US is the most lucrative car market in the world, even if their own country has different legislation.

Remove the loophole and everything gets back into place without any weird & local workarounds like Paris had to retreat to.

JeremyNT• 2 years ago

https://archive.is/gZxkD

mtrovo• 2 years ago

I checked the top 10 cars sold in the UK in 2023 and it's hard to say life is gonna change much around me by looking at the cars on that list [1]. All of the cars on that list would still be allowed and I definitely see some "big" cars there. For instance a Kia Sportage is right in the limit of what would be allowed with 1.5 tons, same with the Vauxhall Mokka and the Nissan Qashqai.

If the concern is pollution maybe it's worth it but if the aim was to improve safety for kids and for cyclists I think the limit should be much lower.

[1] https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars-vans/94280/best-sell...

Paris Vote Targets SUV Drivers with Parking Fees Set to Triple

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