The Socially Awkward Founder

http://www.matthewstump.com/misc/2012/05/01/the-socially-awkward-founder/

by mstump • 14 years ago

50 46 14 years ago

cpfohl• 14 years ago

Good post. Have you read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Did wonders for me...

mstump6• 14 years ago

I haven't read it. I think as a geek, or maybe just as a male I have a hard time buying what one would typically think of as a self help book. I don't know why it just is some sort of block or form of denial. Even after being upfront about what is or isn't easy for me I still have a hard time being seen reading that book. I think that behavior is fairly common, It's ok to say "I'm a nerd", but it's not OK to be seen working on fixing the problem. I guess that's why more people don't talk about this issue. That being said I'm going against my instinct and buying the book, thanks for the tip.

jpdoctor• 14 years ago

> buying what one would typically think of as a self help book.

Screw that. Carnegie's book is just like any other hacking book, except the OS is humans, the API is social interactions. It's not a manual, and is more in the vein of The Art of Hacking.

Seriously, worth reading.

sskates• 14 years ago

Glad you're already getting it, but for everyone else reading:

It's not a self help book in the sense of helping out awkward people fake being less awkward. It's a classic on how to build relationships and should be part of every good business school curriculum. There's loads of good stuff in there that help you regardless of where you're at. I never hesitate to recommend it to friends who are looking to improve- whether they're already natural pros or introverts who have never put themselves out there before. PG recommends it too if that helps: http://paulgraham.com/startupfaq.html

jodrellblank• 14 years ago

Which is strange, because if you had any other complex system which was "broken", you would probably love to work out why and put it right.

I recommend you read some http://twitter.com/#!/pjeby who is a programmer trying to rework "self help" into the less woo-woo and more practical and sensible methods under the name "mindhacking".

( Watch the video http://thinkingthingsdone.com/2008/07/thoughts-into-action.h... for an example of his de-woo-ing kind of approach).

zerostar072• 14 years ago

Your attitude is right. Nerds just need confidence. They already know most of the things found in self-help books because they can analyze behaviors easily (and people are not difficult to decipher). Of course, reading one more book can't hurt can it?

wtvanhest2• 14 years ago

I'm not sure if I read this somewhere or if someone told me about this, but I think your system is a good beginning but could be improved by adding a few steps.

I use this formula when I am tired, but still need to network, and it works exceptionally well.

1) Start with exactly what you said, asking questions about the person. When you find something they are interested in, move to step 2.++

2) Tell a brief story. Make sure it has a beginning, middle and an end.+

3) Introduce them to someone else, and tell the new person about the old person’s interests to get them involved in the conversation.

The toughest part is step 2 and requires practice, you might as well start now. Every time you are out, practice by telling stories. The shorter the better and always have a beginning, a middle and an end.

+As an escape, if you tell a crappy story and you can sense it, you can always joke about how it was a crappy story. It isn’t perfect, but usually that will buy you some respect/time.

++ If you ask the person too many questions about them without telling a story you will notice they will start to back off. People who are socially strong may not mind as they will understand you are nervous and will intentionally give you a break, but this is not the norm.

[EDIT] It is important that the story you tell relates to what that person is talking about.

mstump6• 14 years ago

Totally agree on 3. My cofounder does that with great success. I'll try out 2 soon. Thanks!

TYPE_FASTER2• 14 years ago

Good advice. Also read http://www.amazon.com/Friends-Influence-People-Dale-Carnegie....

farnsworth4• 14 years ago

I've always been terrible at story-telling, my friends have given me shit about it. Then I have one friend who can take any normal every-day event and basically turn it into an epic poem which is hilarious or fascinating or both. Definitely a good skill to have.

wtvanhest2• 14 years ago

I read a pretty good book called Telling to Win. It really takes practice and making sure you have a beginning. A middle and an end. Most people who are bad story tellers don't have the end right.

vibrunazo• 14 years ago

> Start out easy. [..] Just stick out your hand, smile slightly, and say “Hi

Question: How do I get the courage to get that far?

mstump6• 14 years ago

To be honest, you need to just suck it up and try it, consequences be damned. You're going to suck for a while, embrace it.

I think that's a difficulty for smart people, we're used to being good at things easily and when we aren't we avoid them. It's OK to not be good at something if you're just starting out. You will make mistakes, it's your job to learn from them and get better.

follower7• 14 years ago

> "You're going to suck for a while, embrace it."

Yeah, that's a good thing to remember.

> I think that's a difficulty for smart people, we're used to being good at things easily and when we aren't we avoid them.

I think "smart people" want to avoid the "I feel dumb" stage of learning. Actually, I suspect most people do. :) When it's something that's familiar (like learning a new API or language) we can get through it with familiar tools (e.g. our brain) so it's not quite as bad.

When it's something unfamiliar (like improving conversation with people) it's a longer & more obvious stage and our usual tools don't help. (Particularly when we have our critical brain along for the ride.)

> It's OK to not be good at something if you're just starting out.

I definitely had to remind myself of that when I enrolled in an Improv Theatre course recently. :D

Good advice.

MattGrommes• 14 years ago

What I (as a very shy person indeed) try to remember is that if the other person is alone they probably want somebody to talk to. Even when I've been to events with my wife, the both of us really want to find others to talk with. Some of the time I don't end up getting the courage up to talk to strangers but sometimes I do, which just helps build my confidence up for the next time.

The other big tip is always "Fake it til you make it". I just try to think of what somebody who's good with people will do then try to do that. The other person doesn't know you have a hard time with strangers, pretending can help move you a little ways forward.

3pt14159• 14 years ago

Would you do it for $1k? Sure you would. Just think about how each connection and subsequent reactions and the ripple effect will ultimately lead to the average conversation in a business setting worth $1k.

follower7• 14 years ago

Practice. (Ugh, how helpful... :) )

For me, travelling outside my city and country lead to the biggest improvement in obtaining the courage of which you seek.

It boiled down to putting myself in a situation where I could go, "What's the worst that could happen? I'll probably never meet these people again in my life, so, so what if they end up thinking I'm an idiot?".

Of course that's ignoring the risk of viral video and retweeting which weren't really an issue back then. :D

The interesting result was that, if, say, I was in a group and asked what I worried might be a stupid question, but asked anyway, I'd have people come up to me after who would say "Hey, thanks so much for asking, I wondered the same thing, but was too worried/shy to ask".

Then I could revise my self-talk to "Hey, I'm probably not the only person wanting to ask this question, so it's okay for me to do so".

Also, spend less time listening to yourself tell you why you shouldn't. And go ahead.

Start now! Turn to the person nearest you who you don't know and start a conversation. Then come back and tell us how terribly it went and how you would've been better not to have started it.

Or, you know, if it goes well. :)

alan• 14 years ago

Tried to read the page, but it kept jumping back to the top on my android phone. Could not make it through the first paragraph.

kijin• 14 years ago

> Just walk up, listen to the conversation, occasionally node...

I was confused for a few seconds there, trying to conjure up an image of a socially awkward founder desperately behaving like a node that belongs in a network.

Typo aside, nodding is a godsend if you don't want to (or don't know how to) participate actively in group talk but you also don't want to look like you're indifferent. Just nod at appropriate moments. Nod if you agree. Nod even if you disagree, it shows you're paying attention.

Heck, it's even OK to nod because you're falling asleep. People will want to know what kind of fantastic thing you built last night that made you lose so much sleep. (If not, it still gives you a perfect excuse to ditch the boring group and go grab some coffee.)

blueLight• 14 years ago

See "How to Win Friends and Influence People" for a more complete discussion on this technique :)

http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/06...

zerostar072• 14 years ago

just keep them talking, they’ll eventually bring the conversation around to something that is dear to them

It's painful to pretend to show interest then. I can only talk about thinks i am thoroughly interested in (and i talk a lot then), or I can analyze a minor detail or bring up lots of trivia (i know lots of them) to divert the conversation. I don't exactly pass as a talker that way, but at least people don't think i lack confidence.

mstump6• 14 years ago

I find something about that persons interest that I always wanted to know, and ask about that. It can be tangentially related.

navs2• 14 years ago

Thank you for this. I partly own and run a website dedicated to New Zealand Modeling and Fashion. We have high hopes of turning it into something more which is where I come in as a developer. Unfortunately, as part owner, I have to attend meetings made up of photographers, models and the general hipster crowd. How utterly painful for me. I haven't found a way around my social ineptitude and am open to suggestions that especially fit my situation. At present my technique involves drinking a few beers before attempting to start any conversation.

einai• 14 years ago

One advice I got recently - think about what is people's #1 favorite thing to talk about? Themselves! So start with asking people what they do and they will talk non-stop.

mstump6• 14 years ago

I can't offer specific advice, I can only tell you that drinking didn't help for me. It resulted in me being less sharp, and generally made things more difficult. I found it easiest if everyone else was drinking and I remained sober.

If your co-founder is more socially adept observe them and watch what they do. Ask them questions, be up front, maybe they can offer what they think is trivial, but for you pivotal advice.

One thing that always works for me is to ask "can you explain to me" type questions specific to that persons profession or interest. If it's a model ask about what it's like to be a model, do they like any specific work over another, how'd they get into the buisnes etc... there are hundreds of little questions about any profession/topic that I'm genuinely interested in knowing the answer to. About that one topic they know more than you, let them educate you.

farnsworth4• 14 years ago

I'd think that getting people like that to talk about themselves and things they like would be easy. But not necessarily that interesting.

follower7• 14 years ago

What's the website? I'm a Kiwi and always interested to know what other people are doing here. :)

In terms of improving meeting with "photographers, models and the general hipster crowd", does it help any if you think of them as "people"..?

What do you define as "utterly painful" and "social ineptitude" in your case?

What do you say to yourself as you enter these sorts of situations? Is it "Wow, I suck" or "Wow, I'm awesome and have something that's really of value to these people, I should find out what they're looking for and demonstrate how I can help them"?

I know the whole self-talk thing seems bogus but I think it does have an impact.

navs2• 14 years ago

The site is http://model.net.nz/

Well I acknowledge they are certainly people :) I've suffered through a few years of depression which include being medicated. I suppose I'm just terrible at initiating and continuing a conversation. Entering a conversation, I typically feel insecure so this is leaning towards more of a "Wow, I suck".

I realize such thoughts are a terrible handicap in networking situations and I'm working on improving that.

delinka• 14 years ago

Nodding gets me into trouble. It's made me a "good listener" to quote many people from my personal history. I start nodding, people keep talking. It takes an external interruption to get me out of the situation. And that's where I feel I'm 'socially awkward.' I get along with people just fine, but I find getting out of undesirable situations to be a Hard Problem.

Empathy. This is the root of the problem. I'm an American male with empathy. That's not a complaint, but an important observation of critical self-analysis.

farnsworth4• 14 years ago

I know the feeling, sometimes it's ok to interrupt people. You just need to practice the 'conclusive' tone of voice and say something appropriate, e.g. "Well, I guess that's just the way it is" ... pause ... "Good talking to you!"

SatvikBeri• 14 years ago

This is actually a really good situation to be in-learning the skill of ending conversations is much easier than learning how to get people to open up in the first place.

To end a conversation gracefully, try something like: 1. I'm sorry, but I have to XYZ. It was really nice talking to you. 2. Either suggest a useful piece of information related to their interests ("If you like Thai food, you really should check out Siam Square!") or introduce them to someone else ("You should talk to Bob, he knows all the good Thai places around here.")

Ending with something positive leaves them with a fond memory of you, plus it tends to avoid making people feel jilted.

Mz2• 14 years ago

My two sons are ASD -- aka extremely socially awkward, especially my oldest. It is their good fortune that I happen to be unusually socially observant and, at times, reasonably smooth (when my health issues aren't fostering research for a future book called "How to win enemies and alienate people"). Some things that helped:

Addressing underlying health issues.

Shadowing -- i.e. watching me do stuff first, learning by example.

Apprenticing -- an extension of shadowing where they took over pieces of the process as they became comfortable with them and I filled in any gaps until they had the whole thing down pat.

I also started an email list at one time tailored to an interest my oldest son had. With the assurance that mom had his back because I was the moderator, he bloomed and rapidly became the life of the party. He finally got to share with other people the sparkle I had long known and adored. Having experienced it once, he became capable of sometimes turning on the charm for the crowd. Most people still are not privy to it but it is because most of the time he just doesn't care.

Best of luck to everyone struggling with this.

gavanwoolery3• 14 years ago

Actually, I would say you should NOT try to develop people skills. If you are a technical guy, your work will speak for you. By all means, be friendly to anyone who talks to you, but don't go out of your way to improve your social skills, because they are not your most valuable asset.

Being an introvert is not a bad thing.

I strongly recommend reading this:

http://www.carlkingdom.com/10-myths-about-introverts

(Particularly #10)

follower7• 14 years ago

[You were down in the grey, so I upvoted you, not because I necessarily agree with you but because your comment is still contributing to HN--even if it might be somewhat contrarian. :)]

While I agree that being an introvert is not a bad thing, I don't think it's unreasonable for a person to want to change some aspect of their approach to life if they see a benefit in doing so.

I would caution against taking a pure "your work will speak for you" approach. If I have the most amazing programming language/web framework/cold fusion reactor sitting in my house but I tell no one then my work is not going to speak for me. It's just going to sit there generating cheap energy.

In order for your work to speak for you someone needs to be listening.

Social skills are a force multiplier: the more your work is promoted, to the right people, the bigger impact it will have. Either you do the promotion yourself or you meet someone who will do the promotion for you...

And this comes from an Introverted New Zealander so I know of what I speak. :)

As a final example:

Do you know one of my forms of passive income? I would say, probably not.

As an introvert I'd leave it at that.

But as an introvert who has learned people have to know something exists before they can hear what it says...

You should totally listen to what The Bright Bunny has to say:

The Bright Bunny.

A little craft. A little electronics.

A whole lot of awwwwww! <3

(http://thebrightbunny.com/)

gavanwoolery3• 14 years ago

I agree, kind of - obviously you need to get the word out. This does not mean you have to be an expert in social interaction though. Case study: in 2006, I released a demo I had worked on (in isolation for 2 years!). Within the first week, 600,000 hits, just by me posting a link, no social skills needed :)

unimpressive• 14 years ago

>but don't go out of your way to improve your social skills, because they are not your most valuable asset.

There's a higher volume of people in the world who have succeeded through excellent social networking than there are who have through pure technical merit. (In terms of pure monetary success. Even though the people in the latter category have way more geek cred, and arguably contribute more to humanity.)

Like many pursuits, the benefit gained from social skills isn't a linear function. It's more of a diminishing returns sort of deal. Even a marginal improvement on terrible social skills will pay for itself at least a dozen times over.

andyakb• 14 years ago

simply because you have a strong skill doesnt mean you should ignore your deficiencies, especially ones as fundamental as social interaction.

gavanwoolery3• 14 years ago

Viewing introversion as a "deficiency" is probably insulting to introverts. I am speaking as an introvert who has tried to build social skills (and succeeded, at least in artificially working against my nature). The case would be different for each individual, but in my case, shutting my yapper and getting work done has taken me a lot farther than socializing has. ;)

follower7• 14 years ago

I have no idea how it appears to other people but my personal approach is to not say my name or ask for names when I first meet a person.

Unless you have developed the skill to remember names, you're most likely going to forget it in a second--and then you just have to ask for it again later!

Instead, I prefer to have a great conversation with someone and then ask them for their name once I have something to which I can attach it.

I find this reduces the pressure/anxiety at the beginning of a conversation as I can focus on what the person is saying instead of trying to memorise their name.

Well, it's been great talking about succeeding in social situations as an introvert. By the way, I'm Philip, what's your name..?

Mz2• 14 years ago

Michele. Pleased to meet you.

follower7• 14 years ago

Hi Michele, thanks for helping me out with this demonstration.

Do enjoy the rest of your Hacker Newsing today, I should probably go and do some work. :)

The Socially Awkward Founder

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