'Pokémon with Guns' Game Goes Viral, Angering Nintendo Loyalists

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-22/what-is-palworld-pokemon-like-game-with-guns-goes-viral-irks-nintendo-fans

by bmau5 • 2 years ago

41 63 2 years ago

bloomberg.com

boomboomsubban• 2 years ago

https://archive.is/ISN8k

jwcooper• 2 years ago

This is a pretty good video (11 minutes) where a video game IP lawyer discusses palworld vs pokemon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkNcV0kpxvg

Mostly surrounding the similarities in pokemon vs pal visual design.

Spoiler...it's complicated.

Zambyte2• 2 years ago

Every day the idea that people (or even corporations!) can own ideas becomes more and more absurd to me.

c22• 2 years ago

The more I hear about it the more convinced I am that we should only allow IP to be held by individuals (and make it non-transferrable). Instead of selling your idea to some company you could instead just sell a promise not to sue them for the duration of your claim (which I'd be fine setting to your natural lifetime under this system).

duped• 2 years ago

I wish every software developer who talks about "fair use" in software licensing would learn the first point they make in the video - fair use is a defense for infringement, it has to be argued in court.

DanHulton• 2 years ago

I can't speak to the legality of it, but a great many of Pokemon's earliest monster designs seemed to take... "incredible inspiration" from a variety of Dragon Quest enemies.

Plus, the best parts of Palworld are the parts that do things with the game formula that Nintendo would never do -- yes, sure, guns, but also consequential crafting, base building & defense, survival elements, automation, and such. Sure, people grow attached to the design of the various monsters, so changing them now would be hard without drawing the ire of existing customers, but the game is absolutely not "Pokemon with Guns", it's an entirely different game that has creatures that bear a resemblance to popular Pokemon.

(Oh, and the models are nicer with more unique animations than anything GameFreak has put out yet, too. I dunno, I find it hard to consider being a "Nintendo Loyalist" in this particular instance.)

jevoten2• 2 years ago

a great many of Pokemon's earliest monster designs seemed to take... "incredible inspiration" from a variety of Dragon Quest enemies

And animals, real and mythological. We have:

An ordinary dragon, but with its tail on fire: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Charizard

A turtle, but blue: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Squirtle

A caterpillar: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Caterpie

A chubby moth: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Butterfree

A wasp, but with drills for hands: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Beedrill

A bird: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Pidgey

A purple rat (copying Milka's color scheme): https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Rattata

A bigger bird: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Fearow

A snake: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Ekans

A cobra: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Arbok

An armadillo: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Sandshrew

The nine-tailed fox from Japanese mythology: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Ninetales

The child version of the same: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Vulpix

A bat: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Zubat

Another moth: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Venomoth

An earthworm, but with a face: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Diglett

Just a persian cat: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Persian

Pitcher plant, but with a face: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Victreebel

A pony, but on fire: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Ponyta

A horse, but on fire: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Rapidash

A seal: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Seel

Another seal: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Dewgong

A crab: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Krabby

Another crab: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Kingler

Flag of Monaco, but a sphere: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Voltorb

Flag of Poland, but a sphere: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Electrode

Eggs: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Exeggcute

Rhinoceros, but armored: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Rhyhorn

A seahorse: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Horsea

A koi fish: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Goldeen

A bull, but with three tails: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Tauros

Literally just a fish: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Magikarp

I could keep going, but I think the point is made. The list at https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Generation_I_Pok%C3%... has an "Origins" section for each Pokemon, and almost always it is something from the natural kingdom or mythology. If everything that could be argued "takes inspiration from" Pokemon is banned from use by anyone other than the Pokemon company, then we've effectively handed them ownership over the entire animal kingdom and human mythology.

ShamelessC• 2 years ago

I could keep going, but I think the point is made.

You should have stopped sooner. There's zero point being made here. Not one made in good faith at least.

Minor49er• 2 years ago

I can't speak to the legality of it, but a great many of Pokemon's earliest monster designs seemed to take... "incredible inspiration" from a variety of Dragon Quest enemies.

Do you have some examples of this? I am having trouble finding comparisons between the two online

serf• 2 years ago

Dragon Quest essentially designed that type of game. DQ was 1986, FF1 was 87, essentially designed to ride that hype. Cute monsters in an RP setting acting as comic relief. DQ Slime is exactly that.

The first Zelda game was a month before DQ; but they are different enough from one another that it isn't generally considered a clone; there are a lot more 'adventure/action' mechanics within Zelda, and more importantly neither Zelda or FF1 embraced the 'cute monster' aesthetic as heavily as DQ.

jareklupinski• 2 years ago

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ditto_(Pok%C3%A9mon)

https://dragonquest.fandom.com/wiki/Slime

I am having trouble finding comparisons between the two online

for some things, you just have to be a real fan :P

shermanyo• 2 years ago

This post shows some great examples: https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/19chvm3/palworld_is...

johnnyanmac8• 2 years ago

I mean, I think it's less that Nintendo doesnt want to do it and more that they don't fit with how Pokemon is run. Animal Crossing is one of Nintendo's 5 great pillars now and I'm sure all of that (except perhaps survival elements) would fit in fine. All that in a pokemon game sounds like the gimmick of the generation that pokemon's had since gen 3 (contests, Pokestar studio, pokemon amie, etc.).

the models are nicer with more unique animations than anything GameFreak has put out yet, too.

ehh, I'm not sure I agree. this is a huge asethetic vs. fidelity argument. And honestly the pokemon models aren't even that bad when you look through the files.

I looked through the pals and they just feel so generic, like most other monster raising compettiors.

Dig1t• 2 years ago

ha that's so funny I just heard about this from my friends a few days ago. They are all pretty loyal Pokemon fans despite being in their 30's.

They were all excited for this game, and as a fan myself, I have to agree that it does look pretty cool.

There's already several copycat franchises that are obvious knock-offs of Pokemon, the biggest of which is probably Digimon.

How is this any different than Digimon?

Wowfunhappy2• 2 years ago

Personally, I think the visual designs in Digimon are significantly more distinct from Pokemon.

jeffwask• 2 years ago

I found the borrowing from Zelda (Sounds, Fonts) to be more concerning than the Pokemon similarities. Like you mentioned, there are a ton of capture game clones that are similar. The Zelda lifts are the area where I feel they may be flying too close to the sun. Either way, the game has a fun loop and I'm not a Pokemon player more of a survival games enthusiast. Been a good time with friends I hope they are able to navigate the IP issues.

dragontamer2• 2 years ago

the biggest of which is probably Digimon

Digimon is more about "other self", with exception of Cybersleuth and like Season 4 (which was Digimon but Power Rangers transformations). Only Cybersleuth (and other more recent games) were Pokemon "catch them" like plot-lines.

Digimon are fully sentient beings equal to humans (or even in some cases, divinely inspired angels, devils, or gods). In many cases, they are the representation of a person's soul and the "other self" reflected in the digital-world. This is why when Tai feels courageous (his Crest is Courage), Agumon gets powered-up. Because Agumon is specifically connected to Tai.

Palworld seems to be closer to Pokemon if anything, though the crafting stuff makes it look closer to Minecraft if anything. Some of my friends compare it to Ark:Evolved.

"Pokemon but more grimdark" was probably Monster Rancher, if I were to pick a 90s clone series.

Or the Persona series even.

Wowfunhappy2• 2 years ago

I feel like this is all beside the point, though.

Game and story mechanics can't be copyrighted. Art—including character design—can be copyrighted. And that is where I think Palworld might have a problem, because at least to me, many of the models look very similar.

ComposedPattern• 2 years ago

pretty loyal Pokemon fans despite being in their 30's

Pokémon is 28 years old, so people now in their 30s would have been the core demographic of Pokémon fans at the start. I would expect them to be the most loyal fans, no "despite" needed.

How is this any different than Digimon?

The criticism I've seen is of specific creature designs that look very close to those of specific Pokémon. I don't particularly care about that either – but the criticism is not just that it's another mon collection game.

tourmalinetaco5• 2 years ago

There's already several copycat franchises that are obvious knock-offs of Pokemon, the biggest of which is probably Digimon.

Yeah no. The only thing similar about them is the name and that they are monster-based games. Art is HEAVILY distinct, gameplay is distinct (original V-Pets were LED toy monster care simulators while Pokémon was rip-off Shin Megami Tensei with Dragon Quest designs), and the animes cannot even be compared (Pokémon is episodic with very little plot, Digimon Adventure is a monster-of-the-week with dedicated character growth episodes and an overarching plot that features the pains of divorce, adoption, child abuse, and finally growing up from the eyes of children.)

So to wrap this all back to Palworld, it’s different than Digimon because Palworld is mimicking Pokémon while Digimon did its own thing.

zelias• 2 years ago

The success of Palworld speaks volumes about Nintendo/Gamefreak's failure to produce any meaningful gameplay innovation over the past few decades

oneepic• 2 years ago

Does it? Survival/crafting games are popular these days, including shooters. I think someone was bound to make this kind of game eventually, and it's not a surprise people will play it.

haunter2• 2 years ago

S/V sold 10 million copies in the first 3 days and ~25 million copies in the first year. Nintendo is doing fine.

To me the success of Palworld shows two things: 1, the survival-crafting genre is still a gold mine after all these years YET no AAA studio wants to touch it for some reason. Only Early Access indie games in the field. 2, Nintendo would break all records if they start releasing their games on multiple platforms.

epolanski3• 2 years ago

Animal Crossing by nintendo is crafting/surviving.

johnnyanmac8• 2 years ago

he survival-crafting genre is still a gold mine after all these years YET no AAA studio wants to touch it for some reason

games take years to make. If a AAA started making a survival game the second Valheim came out, it'd still be 2-3 years out. Indies are more agile and can capitalize on trends before they are sucked dry.

2, Nintendo would break all records if they start releasing their games on multiple platforms.

if you need to spend 3 times the amount of money to make twice the money, the business choice is clear unless you can show something like stocks soaring over the decision. Japan hasn't had inflation for 30 years, so there's much less incentive to chase those kinds of stock gains. So you play it safe.

Also, why is death such a make or break feature for you?

_fw• 2 years ago

This is exactly it. Dreadful games I’ve avoided since the late 00’s, a lack of innovation or even apparent care. The latest games are poorly optimised and leave SO much on the table.

It’s widely acknowledged Game Freak simply aren’t investing in the games in the way they should: Nintendo should be making Palworld, with their own IP. They’d take over the world.

The crux of it is that Pokemon games don’t need to be good to sell… so they’re crap instead.

epolanski3• 2 years ago

People are blind if they see pokemon in the game.

Very little but catching palms resembles pokemon gameplay-wise.

tourmalinetaco5• 2 years ago

Gameplay wise yeah, but some Pals are very Pokémon-like (and I love it).

epolanski3• 2 years ago

Pokemon's are super generic themselves or look like creatures from other videogames (such as Dragon Quest) bar few that are more unique.

nickstinemates2• 2 years ago

All of the pokemon enthusiasts I know have flocked to the game and are loving it. The breeding/traits in particular.

I have been running a dedicated server with ~10 people on it since launch and it has been incredible.

We'll see how it looks in a month, but massive success out of the gate.

tennisflyi• 2 years ago

Regular Pokémon has breeding/traits

nickstinemates2• 2 years ago

I know! That's a cross over in functionality that the serious (like, competitive, gen specific) pokemon players that I know are loving about palworld.

MisterBastahrd• 2 years ago

The most comical part to me is the moral outrage by some folks who are "against Palworld" because you can essentially force your collection of animals into slave labor.

Because storing them in balls and only allowing them out when you want them to fight to the death for you is such a great moral alternative.

rightbyte2• 2 years ago

Ye.

The first Pokemon movie made Ash and friends realize "why are we pitting our pokemons against each other? It is cruel".

But then Mewtwo made them all forgot everything.

Kinda good self-reflection of the franchise though, really.

It is essentially coq fights.

tourmalinetaco5• 2 years ago

The second movie showed the main villain’s entire game plan was to “catch them all”, and that he was inspired to capture the Legendary Bird Trio because of a Mew trading card, so there was definitely some amazing self-reflection going on back then. Nowadays the Pokémon movies are just ads for the merch of that Pokémon, rather than an interesting story + merch ads.

Tiktaalik• 2 years ago

I have such mixed feelings about this product.

On one hand it's an obvious rip off and that's really lame and companies should be dissuaded from doing that.

On the other hand these guys wanted to do some silly stuff that they knew Nintendo would never do (eg. what if you could shoot guns at Pokemon?) and so they made their own game to scratch that itch. That's cool.

I dunno I wouldn't feel bad about it if it was like a free fair use fan game, but seems worse as a for-profit product that's competing with Nintendo.

CaptainFever• 2 years ago

I don't really see the issue with rip offs, as long as it's better. In fact it's a prime opportunity to innovate on an existing product. Tons of stuff we use nowadays are rip offs. Oreos, Android OS, Chief Wiggums...

johnnyanmac8• 2 years ago

Main issue is we can never argue what's "better" 99% of the time, especially while in the heat of the conversation. And in this case Palword isn't necessarily "better" unless you utterly hate the core loop of Pokemon as a turned based monster raising battler.

Which apparently many people do. But we're now arguing against game genres, not competitors. Comparing Pokemon to Palworld makes about as much sense as comparing Skyrim to Breath of the Wild. They are superfically open world adventure games with a large area to explore and basic combat, but the lore, battle loop, aesthetic, narrative feel, and a dozen other factors make them night and day. You will very likely not like BOTW at all if you go in expecting Skyrim and vice versa.

free_bip• 2 years ago

Realistically this game doesn't compete with anything Nintendo puts out, because they'd never in a million years make a game with a similar gameplay loop (shoot Xmon, catch/kill, put into forced labour, repeat)

justinclift• 2 years ago

It looks like the Palworld developers really pissed of the customers of their previous game, Craftopia:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1307550/Craftopia/

That one was in Steam "Early Access" for several years, with people buying it at full price expecting it to be finished and released. Except the devs used the money to create Palworld instead, abandoning their Craftopia users.

The recent Steam reviews for Craftopia don't paint a pretty picture at all.

tourmalinetaco5• 2 years ago

Now this is what’s actually important. No one should care that Nintendo’s IP was “stolen” when they “stole” the IP from DQ first. However the possibility of Palworld being abandoned in the future like Craftopia is a possibility. Part of the reason I’ll be waiting out for the 1.0 release before purchasing.

Ekaros2• 2 years ago

With Early Access titles you should only invest when you are happy with the current state of the product even if it was not developed further. If you are not, do not buy.

thefz• 2 years ago

How Nintendo is still in business is beyond me.

They are adversaries to their own customers, aggressively pursue meaningless IP violations, aggressively decrease the value of their own products (Wii store anyone?) and failed to innovate in decades pushing out the same trite and formulaic games over and over again.

johnnyanmac8• 2 years ago

Probably becasue they serve a global market beyon internet trends and have spent decades investing in their IP's, unlike many studios who are one mid release away from shutting down and having their IP hoarded by a business not interested in development.

And it's clearly not a fluke. Splatoon was a huge hit out the gate despite launching on Nintendo's worst system, in 2016. Nintendo truly does house and foster some of the best designers in the industry and its a bit of a shame to chastise them indirectly due to business decisions. A factor I'm sure every creative business can agree is a constant clash.

'Pokémon with Guns' Game Goes Viral, Angering Nintendo Loyalists

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