Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/21/1225882007/tens-of-thousands-protest-in-germany-against-the-rise-of-the-far-right

by geox • 2 years ago

97 193 2 years ago

npr.org

ALittleLight• 2 years ago

Do the reverse of these protests ever happen? Are there some days where right wing people protest with similar numbers?

inductive_magic• 2 years ago

Nope

fifilura• 2 years ago

Only in USA.

mschuster915• 2 years ago

Dresden was infamous for a few years with the PEGIDA rallies, these routinely pulled thousands of people in the beginning [1], and eventually federally. But even then, the numbers were orders of magnitude less than what happened the last week, and after a few months it all but fizzled out. Dresden is the last holdout of PEGIDA left, with a few hundred people in attendance every few weeks, and Munich held out with literally 3-5 people up until Covid hit.

[1] https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/pegida-und-...

adrianN• 2 years ago

The biggest „right wing“ protests probably where during peak Covid and didn’t reach these numbers.

earthnail• 2 years ago

Not in modern Germany yet, no. Their protests are rather small in comparison and often met with much larger anti protests.

However, the far right party AfD has been gaining lots of votes over the last few years. It will be interesting to see whether these protests are the beginning of a reversal of that trend.

shp0ngle2• 2 years ago

Aren't there farmer protests in Germany right now?

willvarfar• 2 years ago

"Right wing" can be pretty broad. The recent farmers protests, where traffic was blocked by convoys of tractors, were seen as an opportunity for AfD.

eknoes• 2 years ago

Are there some days where right wing people protest with similar numbers?

No, not even close. This weekend were more than 1 million people on the street, spread all over Germany, with several protests that had to be cancelled for safety reasons, as way too much people tried to come. In contrast, one of the biggest right wing demonstrations in the recent years was in 2015 Pegida, who had like 25k participants on their biggest protest in Dresden. I do not have the countrywide number for these right wing demonstrations around 2015, but Dresden was kind of the center of their movement and usually the most.

swarnie2• 2 years ago

Can't speak for Germany but in the UK you'll find the usually suspects shouting in the street like this and the counter protest will be at the ballot box.

jillesvangurp• 2 years ago

Oh yes. I live in Berlin. Usually far right demonstrations are countered by left wing ones. Often at the same time. And then there's a lot of police to keep the groups separated. During covid, there were a lot of right wing protests in Berlin.

In general, people demonstrate a lot in Berlin. Mostly, that's just business as usual for the police. Tens of thousands is not that many people for a demonstration. If people feel strongly about things, they get bigger crowds together.

Anyone that feels strongly about something can organize a demonstration. The only requirement is that you have to register these. The local police has a helpful overview of upcoming demonstrations: https://www.berlin.de/polizei/service/versammlungsbehoerde/v...

Most of these are just a handful of people protesting whatever. But some of these can draw quite a crowd and they routinely block streets to allow protesters to do their thing.

DeathArrow7• 2 years ago

No. As the system would brand that as far right extremists taking part in a riot with the objective of overthrowing the constitutional order. The police forces would represses the protests in no time.

on_the_train9• 2 years ago

There was a time when that happened. But the left is highly organized. They take photographs of every participant, had a database to share those. They identified everyone they could and ratted them out to their employer. There were a few high profile cases of people losing their job as a consequence. Today its effectively impossible to share your conservative opinion in Germany.

mschuster915• 2 years ago

To add some context: at least in Munich, this protest was - no matter if you trust the police count at 100k people or the organizers' at 320k (they also count the people in the side streets or those stuck in completely overcrowded public transport) - the largest ever since the 1992 "Lichterkette" protests, which in turn also were protests against the rising far-right, that time it was terrorism like the riots in Rostock-Lichtenhagen [1].

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausschreitungen_in_Rostock-Lic...

BiteCode_dev4• 2 years ago

That's not a lot, in a country of millions. We do much more in France, every year. And it's been showing diminishing returns, as the government realized it could just not listen, and nothing bad would happen.

In fact, it's a drop in the sea, compared to the rising casual xenophobia I can notice with my German acquaintances, friends, and even family. Medias, general discussions, and overall atmosphere is not going in the direction of peace.

The fact that they welcomed many African refugees in the last few years increased the tensions, and the Russian crisis made economy a big focus. As a result, there is a general feeling of unfairness which politics use to push a divisive narrative.

Prices have gone up, which in most countries is visible, but quality has gone down, and in Germany, this is a sin. Everything is touched by this: transport, food, service...

And when people are unhappy, you can sell them an enemy.

mschuster915• 2 years ago

That's not a lot, in a country of millions. We do much more in France, every year. And it's been showing diminishing returns, as the government realized it could just not listen, and nothing bad would happen.

You guys have a protest culture I'm pretty envious of. Meanwhile, here in Germany you can and will get arrested for wearing a bicycle helmet...

wahnfrieden2• 2 years ago

What?

DeathArrow7• 2 years ago

You guys have a protest culture I'm pretty envious of.

I would be envious on a culture of innovation, building and getting things done.

google234123• 2 years ago

In a democracy, the people have a right to control immigration. Uncontrolled immigration has been very anti democratic and has angered people literally all over the world (you can find many examples). I’m tired of people thinking that just because they have some reflective empathy doesn’t make their policy choices better or morally superior. There are real negatives when it comes to it that many in the left pretend don’t exist

smallnix• 2 years ago

But that party is planning to remigrate people with the wrong blood. The plan is to take away their German passports, move them into northern African country and create laws to make their life's as hard as possible in a decade long project to remove the unassimilated with German passports.

Source: https://correctiv.org/en/top-stories/2024/01/15/secret-plan-...

peterpost22• 2 years ago

You dont know what they are demonstrating against.

15457345234• 2 years ago

Yeah, that's the theory, but in practice, pretty much across all EU countries, for about 35+ years there was no party which you could vote for which both had a chance of being able to form a government and had an anti-immigration policy.

For all intents and purposes immigration policy was not (and remains not) somthing that was under democratic influence. That's why so many conspiracy theories have sprung up around the subject.

nicbou9• 2 years ago

Nothing is a lot compared to France. It's a lot for Germany, especially without a huge catalysing event.

leipert• 2 years ago

There was a huge catalyzing event. A lot of high rank AfD party members met with known far-right/neo-nazi people in a „secret“ meeting: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-afd-disputes-remigration-inves...

throwbadubadu3• 2 years ago

There was one, which you could call snarky the reincarnation of the Wannsee conference: https://correctiv.org/aktuelles/neue-rechte/2024/01/10/gehei...

But I am not sure why grand poster is downvoted so much. This is a significant and important sign of the liberal and democratic side.. still the frustration is huge and fear and anger is constantly rising.. humans are bad and egoist. Extremism as everywhere is not avoided with good people showing their good faith, unfortunately, the only thing that keeps it low is happy people without economic stress.. in that sense the world is bound for trouble in many places, as we already see it. Democratic protests are good, but in the end it is democracy and current politics that fail here, not the misguided humans, and the other side which shows up won't improve it much..

aurareturn2• 2 years ago

  And when people are unhappy, you can sell them an enemy.

In the US, the enemy being sold to the public is China. It's China this. China that. China is stealing your future. China is stealing our technology. Both parties are happy to throw China under the bus to win some votes and hide their deficiencies.

pydry• 2 years ago

It's ironic coz in the 90s they were condescendingly told they were shooting themselves in the foot by not having a "free market" and centrally planning. Now they're too successful and it's a threat.

CDRdude• 2 years ago

There’s not just one enemy being sold to the public. We are a nation of consumers and we have varied taste. Other enemies include Democrats, elites, Russia, the trans agenda, Republicans, billionaires, immigrants, fascists, and antifa.

jhh• 2 years ago

I've never seen such a big protest. The transit system in Hamburg was completely overloaded. People standing around Alster lake, you couldn't even get close to the actual point where the protest was scheduled to happen. Those protests possibly may be ineffectual and what not - they certainly weren't small.

Hamburg: https://image.stern.de/34382826/t/ud/v2/w960/r1.7778/-/19-ha...

Both Hamburg and Munich protests needed to be canceled in the middle of the thing because the huge crowds were considered dangerous (I think rightly so).

rvense• 2 years ago

I've seen the headlines "tens of thousands" in several places, but also estimates that 1.5 million people showed up.

Mashimo• 2 years ago

These have been large protests for Germany. No need to talk it down.

Over the weekend about one million people demonstrated.

BiteCode_dev4• 2 years ago

I didn't mean to come off that way.

I wanted to convey that compared to the wave of discontent that is taking Germany by storm, it's at best step in the opposite direction.

Germans are not known to be proud, but they are. And right now, a lot of them feel they don't get what they deserve.

Protesting against people showing how unhappy they are is unlikely to bring the change we wish it would.

klmr• 2 years ago

That's not a lot

Indeed, that wouldn’t be a lot: the framing in the article is grossly misleading. The actual number of protesters this weekend was hundreds of thousands, and plausibly >1M (not “tens of thousands”), according to unanimous reporting in various German media and official sources (see e.g. https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/demos-gegen-rechts-bilanz-1...).

hnhg• 2 years ago

Meanwhile the AfD is looking to at least double their share of the votes perhaps to almost 25% of the electorate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_G...

hutzlibu5• 2 years ago

Yes and they likely will win in some eastern states.

"The party leads in several states in eastern Germany, the region where its support is strongest — including three, Brandenburg, Saxony and Thuringia, that are slated to hold elections this fall."

Which sucks, because I happen to live there. And my partner with latin american origins often experience racism here. So we are thinking of going away, but the mass rallies are giving me some hope.

shiroiuma• 2 years ago

Mass rallies in Berlin and Munich aren't going to do much about blatant racism in Saxony. That's a bit like an American thinking that activism in NYC is going to have a real effect on the mentality of people in rural Mississippi. The values of people in those different areas are extremely different, and the people in the economically "left behind" regions are actually going to feel even more attacked by these rallies, most likely, since they already feel like their views are being ignored.

zilti• 2 years ago

Final wakeup call for the other parties.

DeathArrow7• 2 years ago

So they will finally give the people what they ask for? And stop doing what the people dislike?

knallfrosch2• 2 years ago

Yes, that is directly related.

I think the protests were a much needed morale boost for all middle-plus-left voters, but the real power is still with the swing voters that can give their vote to either the legacy parties or the AfD. The fact that many parties now woo these swing voters enfuriates much of the middle-plus-left electorate. They consider not voting for the AfD to be a no-brainer democratic duty anyway and dismiss the notion that one should entice these 25% of voters with anything. Kind of as it is with Trump.

As to why the swing voters might vote for the AfD, consider that the right-most non-AfD party is the Union (CDU+CSU) of Merkel that welcomed 1mio Syrian refugees in 2015 and has, mostly passively, overseen a massive influx of Ukrainian, Syrian and Afghan migrants. There is currently no right-of-center party that is neither the AfD and can credibly claim to limit migration.

soco3• 2 years ago

The solution could be a new middle-left party to talk exactly about those concerning problems, but proposing different solutions. Is there any? Because the traditionals look more like trying to minimize the points, to the success we can all see. Also because I cannot imagine the pension system for once, without a steady influx of younger immigrants - so without them Germany is heading to fresh, Macron-style problems.

patates7• 2 years ago

As an immigrant here in Germany I wonder if I should perhaps start to think about an exit strategy if this trend continues.

jansan• 2 years ago

If you are living on social welfare, things might actually get a bit tighter in future.

suslik4• 2 years ago

The answer is, unfortunately, yes, you probably should. I am in the same boat and have an expectation to receive the sharp end of the stick eventually. Not that the exit strategy is self-evident...

stby2• 2 years ago

I am German without an immigration background and wonder about this, too.

nicbou9• 2 years ago

Speaking only for myself with no sense of authority: there's something in the air that I'm not the only one feeling. Something very subtle seems off. The water is a little hotter, but subtly enough to say "nah it's not like that". The way I see it, tens of thousands took to the streets to make damn sure it won't be like that on their watch.

The AfD has gotten louder and stronger last year, and it's reaching further and further into other parties' voter bases, fueled by growing economic problems and contentious immigration policies.

gambiting4• 2 years ago

It's everywhere, not just in Germany. Like you said, there's "something in the air". The rise of populism, rebirth of strong nationalism, is everywhere in Europe. I feel like wherever that tide is pushed back, it grows stronger in the background anyway.

And the worst thing is, I don't really see how this could get better. Economic problems will continue to grow for at least several years, and one of the most contenious problems - immigration, legal or otherwise - is not going to slow down, fueled by conflicts around the globe and climate change pushing people out of previously habitable areas.

nicbou9• 2 years ago

It definitely seems to be a worldwide phenomenon. You forgot that immigration is also fueled by the receiving side, who won't admit their dependence on cheap labour that pays taxes without needing to be raised and cared for.

lgrebe• 2 years ago

That something might just be the urgency of change in things we’ve taken for grander the past ~2 generations (~60years)

Right at the top of that list: - using fossil fuels as cheap energy - assuming continued growth while earths resources are limited (yes tech is getting more efficient) - relying on respected and trusted media entities (opposed to outlets bought by corporations with clear interests or maybe(?) state controlled social media trolls

Change is happening, coming fast and is becoming harder to ignore but people don’t like change.

bitcharmer2• 2 years ago

It's worth to look at the underlying cause for these sentiments gaining popularity and support in recent years. I'm pretty sure to some degree it has to do with native European populations being unhappy about illegal immigration and the problems arising from that.

And before you call me a racist: mainstream media kept redefining the meaning of the word refugee for a while now. For example: refugees are expected to stop at the nearest safe haven and not traverse multiple countries to end up in the one with the biggest social benefits. Also, tonnes of young men arriving from war-torn regions with disproportionate ratio of women and children. News outlets advertising these groups as doctors and engineers which at this point is a meme.

Economical burden, elevated crime rates and social tensions caused by this are quite apparent. Just look at Sweden, France, Germany. UK has it lucky because it's an island and harder to get into. All that while everyone pointing at these topics as unresolved problems getting branded as racist or xenophobe. It's only natural people get angry and start leaning toward populist assholes who promise to "solve" these problems one way or another.

The pendulum is starting to sway back and that is not a good thing but also not unexpected the way things were going.

knallfrosch2• 2 years ago

I think migration is mostly driven by technological changes. Tens of thousands simply fly to Middle America and trek to the US border. That (tens of thousands affording a plane ticket) wouldn't have been possible in the 90s's. Regardless of whether it's climate change, population growth or growing riches though, it's going to get more intensive in the future.

suslik4• 2 years ago

I feel like it's not pushed back, it's swiped under the rug. Is it surprising that the bulldog climbs from under the rug on the other side eventually?

piva002• 2 years ago

Fascism is a product of capitalism's crisis. It's the final breath of capitalism when the system is not working for the masses, it's counter revolutionary, it's a doubling down of the status quo into a more violent form.

Wages stagnated, inflation is eating up the last pennies of a more impoverished worker class, populism will always rise up from these conditions, and right wing populism will eventually lead to fascism.

rswskg• 2 years ago

Then you will never understand these people.

sebazzz2• 2 years ago

Read the Fourth Turning, I truly wonder if this is the “there is something in the air” thing.

The Strauss–Howe generational theory, devised by William Strauss and Neil Howe, describes a theorized recurring generation cycle in American history and Western history. According to the theory, historical events are associated with recurring generational personas (archetypes). Each generational persona unleashes a new era (called a turning) lasting around 20–25 years, in which a new social, political, and economic climate (mood) exists. They are part of a larger cyclical "saeculum" (a long human life, which usually spans between 80 and 100 years, although some saecula have lasted longer). The theory states that a crisis recurs in American history after every saeculum, which is followed by a recovery (high). During this recovery, institutions and communitarian values are strong. Ultimately, succeeding generational archetypes attack and weaken institutions in the name of autonomy and individualism, which eventually creates a tumultuous political environment that ripens conditions for another crisis.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generatio...

shzhdbi09gv8ioi2• 2 years ago

Yea, Kremlin supported AfD is having a success. Putin is happily destroying european unity while we let their propaganda hit us in social media daily. [1]

The Russia induced Syrian migrant wave of 2015 sure helped undermine the current right wing popularity rise. [2]

And Russias involvement in making brexit happen... [3]

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AfD_pro-Russia_movement

2: https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-weaponizing-syrian-refugees-g...

3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...

baq2• 2 years ago

Kremlin supports everyone who is useful for them, Schroedder wasn't involved in AfD (last time I checked, which was a long time ago, anyway)

stavros4• 2 years ago

What's KREML? Are we making up stock-sounding words now?

boffinAudio6• 2 years ago

The Russia induced Syrian migrant wave of 2015 sure helped undermine the current right wing popularity rise. [2]

I think you mean the 5-eyes induced ME immigration that started in 2003 with the illegal invasion and destruction of 5% of Iraqs population, the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan, destruction of Libya, invasion and occupation of Syria by the West, and so on.

We (5-eyes and by proxy, Europe too) still occupy 1/3rd of Syria - its oil fields - specifically to prevent the Syrian people rebuilding their nation.

orloffm• 2 years ago

Russia didn't induce the 2015 migrant wave. The small child on the beach and "refugees welcome" have happened months before Russia's involvement in Syria began.

zelphirkalt• 2 years ago

Maybe that Kremlin influence contributes a little, but most importantly what drives their rise is the corruption and bad government we have had for decades. Stop having politicians in your parties elected who only are out for their own enrichment, and start actually improving the situations of lower income population, and you will quickly regain support.

I hold CDU, SPD, FDP and the greens all accountable for the rise of AFD. Much more than Putin or the Kremlin or whatever. I even think it is dangerous to overlook the mainstream parties' own hand in this. They must learn now, or it will get very unpleasant soon.

Phurist• 2 years ago

The "good" options are doing what their funders demand them to do and that is keeping the current system limping onward.

The opposition, the far right ones are however funded by new sources, shady ones. Their platform is thin as ice, there is no substance behind their loud slogans. But the slogans they use, do reach peoples heads. If the current leaders are not able to take these points for them selves and gain back the votes by actually doing what the proletariat want, then a very sudden and painful fall is the outcome. It has always been that way.

nicbou9• 2 years ago

The slogans work because they tap into real, legitimate frustrations. I do not agree with the solutions, but the problems are real.

Dismissing the other side of the political spectrum instead of addressing their problems is exactly how we keep getting into this mess.

baq2• 2 years ago

This is known in some circles as the fourth turning; in others, it's just common sense: failed policies lead to demoralising the center electorate and activating the extreme, both left and right.

hutzlibu5• 2 years ago

"The AfD has gotten louder and stronger last year, and it's reaching further and further into other parties' voter bases"

They reached into actual daily politics of the government - because Chancellor Scholz now also say things like "we have to start massivly kicking immigrants out"

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/olaf-scholz-ueber...

nicbou9• 2 years ago

This is when I started paying attention. The anti-immigration sentiment has flared up and it became advantageous to fan those flames, even as a boring centrist party.

The overton window has shifted right even in left-leaning, immigrant-packed forums. I am stunned by the sort of stuff I see on reddit these days. They think that they'll only come for the other immigrants. I'm not going to wait and see.

nvm0n28• 2 years ago

Yes, and the notorious meeting where the AfD supposedly planned to evict everyone:

1. Wasn't an AfD meeting

2. Had CDU politicians there too

Reality is, the AfD's positions are popular and Scholz tries to respond to that, whilst also claiming his opponents are a threat to democracy. But that is a risky strategy. After all, if one party can make a policy that another party cannot then campaign to reverse, then who is really dismantling democracy?

boffinAudio6• 2 years ago

That "something in the air" is underlying guilt on the part of the West, for the mass crimes against humanity and war crimes which Europe and its partners in the 5-eyes has let occur, with impunity, since the illegal invasion and destruction of Iraq in 2003.

The Western nations know, intrinsically, that they are being run by war criminals - people such as Cameron and Macron, who have the blood of MILLIONS of innocent peoples lives on their hands, and yet: they are getting away without facing justice.

In such circumstances, you can be sure there is populist anger which can be deftly exploited by propagandists in the West to create movements conducive to their gaining more power as the war-criminal class fights to hide its crimes against humanity.

Until we prosecute our OWN war criminals we will have to shelter their victims. Period.

swarnie2• 2 years ago

How about the politicians listen to the voters and take steps to fix their concerns?

Maybe then people wouldn't need to swing to extremes to get the solutions they require.

fabian2k2• 2 years ago

The thing that triggered the protests was a meeting of the far right including AFD people where they discussed a plan to deport all migrants including those that have a German passport. There is no listening to that kind of blatantly unconstitutional nonsense.

I do think the communication from the left on migration is often problematic, at least for the center-left parties in Germany there isn't a huge difference to what the center-right parties want. The main difference is the rethoric and how they talk about it.

thejackgoode2• 2 years ago

Was the recent change to legislation which made only 3 years of residence enough to apply for citizenship a trigger for this? In most countries it’s 5-10 years

Throw84949• 2 years ago

Current German goverment is also far right! They want to move migrants from Germany to other countries!

sighansen• 2 years ago

That is just plain untrue. They deport criminal migrants or migrants that are not under international asylum law. And we are talking about few thousands per year.

stavros4• 2 years ago

Is there a right-wing party in Germany? What happened in Greece was that a conservative party (one of the big two) started rising in power, and that took many votes away from the far right party. Maybe the case in Germany is that it's a choice between "far-right" and "leftish"?

fabian2k2• 2 years ago

The mainstream right/conservative party is the CDU/CSU. The AFD is a newer party to the right of them.

stavros4• 2 years ago

I see, thank you!

fileeditview• 2 years ago

One of the problems being that the CDU/CSU have drifted to the left over the last 10+ years and their is a gap on the right/conservative side that now the AFD is filling.

DeathArrow7• 2 years ago

If 25% percent of the people sympathize with a political party, by what logic can they all be declared "extremists"?

Maybe the extremists are those who gather in the streets to pressure for the ban of a political party.

aurareturn2• 2 years ago

As someone who doesn't live in Europe and never set foot in Europe, it seems like the #1 issue is immigration - both legal and refugees. Am I correct?

DeathArrow7• 2 years ago

Woke ideology in general. But yes, immigration is a big part of it.

patates7• 2 years ago

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

What's wrong with being "woke"? People can't tolerate the fact that some still want social justice as supposedly "less equal" people rush into the country? Yeah? Then they should just say it!

I just want people to openly express the racism in their minds without coming up with ridiculous terms like "anti-woke". Truth would be them saying "We don't want equality, we believe we are privileged and we want to live that", why is it so hard to say?

But no. We didn't want to throw away the government! We like equality, just not woke! This is all you hear.

dtf• 2 years ago

There was a piece in the Guardian this morning arguing that it differed by country, and in particular that in countries with vocally anti-migrant governments such as Italy, it had become less of an issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/22/crisis...

"Germany is the only country where immigration is clearly in the lead when people are asked which crisis bothers them most when they think about the future. Estonians and Poles are focused on the war in Ukraine. Italy and Portugal see the economic crisis as their biggest threat. Spain, Britain and Romania are the countries where Covid-19 is seen as the biggest trauma. And in France and Denmark the climate emergency is considered the most important crisis."

nvm0n28• 2 years ago

That article seems rather confused. They asked people "Which of the following issues has, over the past decade, most changed the way you look at your future?" and then assume that this is what will define the 2024 election year. Clearly COVID will not.

So that leaves climate and immigration, but the question is very vague. "Changed the way you look at the future" doesn't imply you think there's a crisis or will vote for a party that treats the issue as a crisis. The Guardian and the organization they cite both think it does.

dauertewigkeit2• 2 years ago

No, don't generalize like that. What you have to understand is that even as a percentage of the total population, immigration is only a problem in certain countries/regions mainly both because of failed immigration policies and also because the people there are plainly more racist/xenophobic.

I would put the slowing economic growth and aging population as more substantial EU-wide problems.

poisonborz2• 2 years ago

NO. Just no. It is the loudest of the topics and easiest to incite the slightly racist majority. Criminality numbers, welfare expenses, "jobs taken", these numbers do not reflect the huge impact the right proclaims. "No-go zones" and "gang warfare in sweden" are easy to pull out of context. The immigration numbers don't even touch the overall population decline. The overall topic of "population exchange" is a longer term philosophical topic (that began decades ago) rather than "number 1 burning issue".

t0bia_s4• 2 years ago

No. Right now its inflation, inaccessible house rents and ridiculous energy prices.

boffinAudio6• 2 years ago

The #1 issue for Europe is the participation in the USA/5-eyes war crimes regime, and the subsequent culpability for the heinous acts committed by the West on the very nations where Europe is getting a majority of its refugees from.

Middle-East refugees are coming here to EUROPE to escape OUR wars. Until we prosecute the war criminals involved, the immigration issue is not going to resolve.

Make Damascus Great Again, and you won't have Syrian orphans burning cars in Paris ... rebuild Mosul and Raqqa, and the immigrant kids whose lives were torn apart by those atrocities will have somewhere other than Cologne in which to party.

It is OUR wars which are forcing these much-derided immigrants to flee their nations and find refuge in the one places WE are not dropping bombs - our own nations.

Until we stop this, there will be victims of our wars attempting immigration to safer places .. our own back yards, of course.

dzhiurgis2• 2 years ago

Interesting emotional spin, but they aren't really escaping our wars - they running away from dictators they elected

sebazzz2• 2 years ago

Whatever it is, immigration is impossible to stop in a humane way if we want to keep our current standard of living. Of course you wish everyone the live we have, but it is not sustainable to have that in Europe - but because of the inherent polution and the space in the cities.

So, you need to distuigish between refugees that can’t return home safely because they are political activist, gay, or thousands of other reasons - and regufees who are, as the populists like to say “gold diggers” and are here to get a better way of living, regardless how they achieve that.

To distuigish that, you need to investigate each individual refugee, and that takes time and money by itself. Because you can’t keep them in a single building for months or even years at a time, you allow them to roam free. This however causes other issues, because there are bad apples in the bunch who then steal from the local population, or even commit atrocities against fellow refugees. However, the view of part of the public is that there isn’t sufficiently acted by the police or politics on this. And even sending them back costs money, in the form of airplanes and such.

dluan• 2 years ago

man, these comments are something. hacker news is scary now.

bitcharmer2• 2 years ago

What do you mean?

reducesuffering• 2 years ago

No, you're probably just usually surrounded by left wing politics.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870

woodpanel2• 2 years ago

For context: This happened after an allegedly "secret plan against Germany" was leaked which the AfD conceived during a secret gathering and by which they want to "deport millions of citizens".

What is not said however is:

- that this meeting never was secret

- there was no plan conceived but rather a kind of conservative TED-talk of individuals

- that the smeared politicians (from other parties than AfD as well) are already suing the news outlet leaking this for libel

- that the leaking news-outlet is mostly government funded and its leadership almost entirley comprised of members of the ruling SPD- and Green-Party

- that not one of the attendees used the word "deportation"

- that not one of the attendees talked about "deporting citizens"

- that this meeting happened in november last year thus raising a lot of red flags about the timing of leaking this "story": As it just got released to the press days before the culmination of the government-critical, authentic, farmers-protests. Which are in contrast to the "anti-deportation" protests not run and organized by political parties (especially not those parties in power).

pallas_athena• 2 years ago

that not one of the attendees used the word "deportation"
that not one of the attendees talked about "deporting citizens"

semantics. "remigration" means the same thing.

woodpanel2• 2 years ago

your just proving my point

eclecticfrank2• 2 years ago

Organisers of the protests estimated that there were 1,4 million participants in Germany over the weekend.[1] German police had a more conservative estimate of 900k participants.[2]

In the city where I'm staying (Cologne) 80k people showed up. That's almost one in ten for a city of a million. That is impressive.

It's easy to say these numbers are not large enough for a country of 83 million. What has to be taken into account, is that it happened all in a matter of a week and nationwide. These were not protests that were advertised and organised long before.

[1] https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2024-01/muenchner-demo-gege...

[2] https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2024-01/proteste-rec...

flir2• 2 years ago

Middle of January, too.

DeathArrow7• 2 years ago

Reading comments, some things seem clear. Democracy is all right if you vote what we like.

elforce0022• 2 years ago

This. I don't follow German politics (nor European politics for that matter) but we have to check why the perceived opinion is shifting to the right.

sazz2• 2 years ago

The way you state your sentence indicates that you see this as a problem?

poisonborz2• 2 years ago

Great demonstration of values but I'm sad to say these are not the voters. Just a few years agon Hungary also had marches with 100s of thousands in Budapest, but Orbán's regime stands like concrete and only becomes stronger. The silent majority, mostly countryside voters, does not march for either side.

Geee• 2 years ago

Far left - far right is such a misnomer. It presents politics as a spectrum between these two extreme values. It's as if all politics should be mapped on this scale. However, historically communism and fascism were both collectivist and authoritarian - and also racist. They were actually just two competing teams of very similar ideas.

Today, "the left" is ideologically much closer to the historical far right and fascism. It's collectivist and authoritarian, while "the right" defends individuality and classical liberalism among other western values. I don't see nationalism so much, but rather defense of western culture and values.

JodieBenitez3• 2 years ago

Protests are fun. You can shout in the street, stroll and sing with your friends and feel morally superior. But how about addressing citizens' problems in the first place, so they don't turn to extremes ? Weird idea, I know...

t0bia_s4• 2 years ago

When you still believe that someone above you solve the problems, you rather go out screaming than take responsibility and actually do something usueful.

But that is what education teach us. Listen the authority and let them tell you what to do.

ghusto• 2 years ago

It's such a strange report. What they're actually saying is "Tens of Thousands Protest Reality". It's like going out in a flood, and complaining that you got wet. The reality is that many people in Germany have been so desperate that they've been convinced that _actual goddamn fascism_ in Germany! _is the answer_.

How about we first reflect on how we got here, instead of further segregating and demonising those people, which in turn pushes them further into extremes.

on_the_train9• 2 years ago

Here we are again. If anyone as much as hints at politics from the "other side", their account is immediately nuked. But it's all good when you guys do it. 80 highly political comments, all good. But no, hn is not political. And if it is, it surely is neutral and rational... Sure.

And no, this were no protests against the "far right". It was an attempt to get the only opposition party in Germany banned, which is more than scary.

thejackgoode2• 2 years ago

“Only opposition party” is a fundamentally fascist way of seeing things.

on_the_train9• 2 years ago

I genuinely can't follow that train of thought

eclecticfrank2• 2 years ago

AFD is not the only opposition party in Germany.

The opposition in the German Bundestag is quite large. Of a total 736 seats there are 319 opposition seats. 78 of those are occupied by AFD politicians. The largest oppostion party is in fact the CDU/CSU with 197 members.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundestag

on_the_train9• 2 years ago

Yet curiously, all those parties share the same politics in the relevant topics, and all work together to prevent the afd to take part in any (federal or local) government. Even where they have massive votes. That is not how the party system is supposed to work.

felurx• 2 years ago

And no, this were no protests against the "far right". It was an attempt to get the only opposition party in Germany banned, which is more than scary.

The protests certainly weren't that. At the one I was at, the speaker made it abundantly clear that the protest isn't even against the AfD in particular (tho you could see lots of signs against them), but for democratic values.

What should be noted is that both the protests and recent calls for a ban of the AfD were sparked by a report [1] of a meeting where some neonazis (including someone quite high up in the AfD) were literally making plans for how to force people with a migration background (including those with nationalities) to leave Germany.

[1] https://correctiv.org/en/top-stories/2024/01/15/secret-plan-...

on_the_train9• 2 years ago

Force people who aren't allowed out of the country, exactly as the law says.

The protests in my and the surrounding cities were extremely focused on the afd. On the current push to ban it. And making highly illegal (and absurd) comparisons between the afd and Nazi Germany. Which just for foreigners reading is super illegal and if done by the other side is punished by incredibly high fines and regarded as one of the worst crimes our justice system knows.

AlexeyBelov• 2 years ago

HN doesn't nuke accounts. Also, who told you HN is not political or neutral? Did HN promise that at any point in time?

on_the_train9• 2 years ago

The guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), and also dang many many times.

Off-Topic: Most stories about politic
Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle.

And hn absolutely nukes accounts

suslik4• 2 years ago

If I was a future historian - or a machine intelligence documenting the past based on mindless alignment with a long-gone humanity - I would feel very empathetic towards a common centrist like myself.

Politically, I feel completely alone. The right wing are peddling the same old tropes that gave us two world wars in the last hundred years; the left offer corporate-friendly cancel culture, censorship, and an infinite supply of sanctimony.

Politics took a gold medal in the bullshit olympics - right between religion and sports. The unappealing grey sludge of spineless career politicians and diplomats who are great at riding the waves of that bullshit but nothing else is not able to offer anything besides hiding their heads in the sand at every opportunity - and that, among other things, pushes people to the extreme.

I don't have high hopes for the near future (of course, civilisations raise and fall, the humanity might still be ok, but we won't know).

nvm0n28• 2 years ago

The right's position in Europe is that it would like to preserve borders and stop people moving between countries. How is that similar to WW1 or WW2, which were wars intended to abolish all borders and allow citizens of certain countries to move and settle all over the continent against the will of the people who lived there?

suslik4• 2 years ago

The right's position in Europe is that it would like to preserve borders and stop people moving between countries.

That is the most charitable view possible - but let's say that's the case. What happens if they win and somehow achieve that? Will they just wash their hands and say - now we're done, enjoy, friends?

No, politicians always need to stay in power. Those who don't - never get to power in the first place. The more unstable the world is - the more incentive would there be for them to double down on nationalistic tendencies. So, what do you do with millions of non-ethnic germans that were born in Germany, but are still in some sense considered 'immigrants'? What do you do about the fact that the land where the Prussian kings of old were anointed is now under the yoke of barbarians from the east? Irredentism is a story as old as humanity itself; it can - and I can't see how it won't - be used to rally the electorate. Who would've thought that the senseless Russia-Ukraine war was a possibility? But that is, because that is the logical conclusion of a nationalistic ressentiment. And what do you do when there's not enough people to do fuel the economy - will it be kinder kuche kirche again (because, what else)? Etc, etc.

So, will nationalistic parties just stop at low and order - or, perhaps, there are some other stories, old like the world itself, lurking in the shadows? I can't see the future, but I personally have a strong prior on the latter.

WW1 or WW2, which were wars intended to abolish all borders

Today I learned.

sazz2• 2 years ago

As soon as there are significant protests by farmers and middle class against the government, a government-sponsored activist NGO publishes a lurid paper about a meeting of conservatives that took place in November 2023. Two days later, another government NGO named the word "remigration" as the bad word of the year 2023 and a few days later a play was even staged in Berlin about this alleged meeting.

Although the article cannot substantiate its claims in any way (e.g. the alleged "secret plan" has been available to everyone in book form for months), the public service media adopt every assertion without distance and make completely unsavory comparisons with the Third Reich.

The government has thus successfully suppressed the perception of protests by farmers and the middle classes. Propaganda in its purest form.

A long text that covers the current situation well: https://www.tichyseinblick.de/meinungen/correctiv-wannsee-un...

campuscodi• 2 years ago

Why are posts here about the far-right and nazis getting immediately reported, "flagged," and removed?

sershe• 2 years ago

When I moved to Canada, on a work visa that is not guaranteed to be permanent, and with a job already lined up, they still had me do an extensive medical exam beforehand to make sure I won't be a burden on the free healthcare. Productive member of society, not healthy enough? GTFO. Healthy enough? You're welcome, and the work visa rules, for example, are much more friendly than the US ones.

That attitude (not this particular law, in general) is why the only far-right person I talked to in BC (accidentally in a bar) told me that "Pakistanis are still better than Quebecois" :)

I think the immigration debate in the west has the biggest amount of stupid, averaged between two sides... it's possible to have a massive yet reasonable immigration system that is productive and does not alienate the local. Most of the west has two sides passionately arguing if throwing baby out with the bathwater is best done onto tile, or cement... Before complaining about other side's stupid, look at your own.

amai• 2 years ago

These protests will be forgotten already when people vote in the summer and fall elections.

Tens of thousands protest in Germany against the rise of the far right

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