One of the Most Controversial US Spy Programs Just Got Renewed

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/12/one-of-the-most-controversial-us-spy-programs-just-got-quietly-renewed/

by dylan604 • 3 years ago

95 24 3 years ago

This can keeps getting kicked down the road a couple years. Bundled into some other huge bill or abother. Not too long an extension usually, but gee, sure seems unlikely Congress will ever have to actually reckon with their monsters ever, will ever have to re-decide a thing that was deliberately explicitly built as a short term thing to be re-evaluated.

But these conversations were halted after Congress and the Biden administration squeezed a short-term extension of the spy program through the annual defense bill, potentially keeping it in effect until 2025.

I am a strong leftist progressive who believes in strong competent doing government, very much. But the inability of government to have to face up to old decisions & evaluate how things have been going & make new better informed decisions keeps being super undermined by awful shitty omnibus bills. (Personally I think one party actively sabotages the system & does not want governance or compromise, but anyways...)

hilbert423• 3 years ago

"This can keeps getting kicked down the road a couple years."

And it will continue to do so because the only people who care about the matter are the few who read columns like this. Similarly, we see the same apathy amongst the masses when it comes to copyright reform.

To overturn decisions of entrenched power—government or corporate—we need the masses to react and demonstrate in the way they did during the Vietnam War and there's no stomach around for that these days (there's been no such reaction for 50 years).

Opponents of such laws just have to accept the fact that they don't have the numbers and likely won't for some considerable time.

pas2• 3 years ago

grassroots efforts work in a lot of cases. it of course doesn't mean it can be done by sending a few handwritten snail mails only, but a lot can be achieved through slow and steady activism and the necessary coalition building.

recently protest-driven movements turned into hyperpoliticized empty performative shells of themselves, mostly through the radicalization process driven by the interplay of inciteful keyboard warriors and the gullible ones eager to please on the streets.

mrangle2• 3 years ago

You labor under the delusion that protests are not state level intimidation and excuse to ram through what they want to, against a small obstacle that isn't with the program: popular opinion (seemingly most common), an institution, or a branch of government.

Actual grassroots protests, often representing true popular opinion, get demonized and buried by the press. Participants are prosecuted as far as they can be. Any protests that bring "change" get the opposite treatment, and coincidentally commonly take on a severely antidemocratic tone rooted in the threat of violence against innocents.

jevoten• 3 years ago

awful shitty omnibus bills

Several countries have bans on omnibus bills [1], so like billboards [2], this is a solvable problem.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-subject_rule

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/aug/11/can-cities-ki...

ThunderSizzle• 3 years ago

I am a strong leftist progressive who believes in strong competent doing government, very much

So your a conservative in the US since the US Federal government is probably the worst example of competency...? Or do you still prefer a strong incompetent fascist government to a weaker competent government that has checks and balances to it?

socrates137• 3 years ago

I think your question at the end is a good one for discussion. But let’s be honest, even “conservatives” in the U.S. aren’t fighting for small government. It’s barely given lip service, and only when they’re trying to justify gutting government funding. They’re often the ones pushing for authoritarian measures and flirting with outright Nazis at this rate.

I say this as someone who misses the principled “small government” conservative. I didn’t agree with them in a great many ways, but at least I respected them.

Snow_Falls3• 3 years ago

"Do you agree with me or are you a fascist?" Come on, you're being unfair. "strong government" can mean many things, strong regulation in the e.g. gambling industry is something a strong goverment does but that doesn't mean it's fascist. Also, the idea that a weak government is the only kind that has checks and balances is just silly. Not to mention there are plenty of leftists that very much want a weak government, not just conservatives. E.g. libertarian socialism, left-wing anarchists, the strong tradition of syndicalist in the US.

Also, you must live a charmed life if you have access to the internet and believe that the US government is the worst example of competency.

2OEH8eoCRo0• 3 years ago

Under Section 702 of FISA, federal investigators do not need a warrant to tap the phone calls, texts, and emails of foreigners outside of the country.

Sounds good to me!

Snow_Falls3• 3 years ago

Did you know that the Five Eyes alliance (which the US is apart of), has been noted to spy on foreigners and pass the data to their governments to bypass laws around spying on their own citizens? These things cut both ways, foucault's boomerang and all that.

Also, why do you think it's ok to spy on people without oversight just because they are foreign? Everyone is deserving of privacy. If there is legitimate reason to spy, then obtain a warrant.

agency• 3 years ago

Not terribly surprising considering we are told we are still in a state of emergency declared after 9/11. By law these proclamations expire after a year and yet every year like clockwork, democrat or republican in the white house, the president renews it https://www.courthousenews.com/biden-extends-9-11-state-of-e...

dragonwriter• 3 years ago

Not terribly surprising considering we are told we are still in a state of emergency declared after 9/11.

We're still in several national states of emergency declared before 9/11 (the oldest being from 1979.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies...

jdksmdbtbdnmsm• 3 years ago

And the event that the 1979 state of emergency was declared in response to, the Iran Hostage Crisis, ended the following year.

Declaring emergencies is obviously an easy way for a leadership class to consolidate power, but they have to be irresponsible, pathetic, decadent, etc. to do that.

chatmasta• 3 years ago

In 2021, the FBI conducted about 3 million so-called “backdoor searches” on US residents

It's hopeless at this point. We have no chance to stop this when our elected representatives put up zero fight to achieve the one bipartisan objective that's emerged this Congress; namely, protecting their constituents (the people who voted for them) from unconstitutional intrusions into their personal lives.

hulitu• 3 years ago

It's hopeless at this point

It is for _your_ safety. To protect _you_ from terrorists. /s

(at least from some of them :)) )

mrangle2• 3 years ago

The mistake in this logic is the one that assumes that they represent anyone, instead of thinking of themselves as a seperate caste whose interest is in maintaining the interests of the caste. Across the board.

This adjusted view, in part, explains why they'll never vote against this much power. No matter how bipartisan-populist any one's rhetoric.

JohnFen• 3 years ago

It's hopeless at this point.

It's literally never hopeless, if history is anything to go by. Sometimes it takes years of effort that looks like it's going nowhere first, though.

DaveFlater• 3 years ago

"There is nothing so permanent as temporary" emergency powers

aragonite• 3 years ago

Does Section 702 surveillance of foreign nationals even require a national security pretext? When it was introduced in 2008 it was sold as a tool for stopping foreign terrorists (and it continues to be justified on grounds of fighting terrorism [1]), but judging by e.g. ACLU's account of this case [2], FBI came by the emails of the Temple physics prof incidentally in the course of conducting "extensive surveillance of Chinese universities and scientific research centers", where the "fighting terrorism" justification transparently doesn't apply.

[1] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/rogues-gallery-threats-made-... > Since Hamas’ October 7 attack on Israel, [Wray] said, a “rogue’s gallery” of groups have called for violence against the US. “702 is critical to protecting Americans from foreign terrorist threats,” he urged. “Please don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.”

[2] https://www.aclu.org/cases/xi-v-united-states-challenge-warr... > The government has reportedly engaged in extensive warrantless surveillance of Chinese universities and scientific research centers. It has siphoned communications off servers, computers, and major internet networks that connect many of China’s most prestigious academic institutions. Both the NSA and FBI routinely store the emails and phone calls they intercept in government databases for years, where they can be later searched by analysts and agents who are investigating Americans. FBI agents conduct so-called “backdoor searches” on Americans so often that the government has referred to one of these massive databases as the “FBI’s Google.”

i8comments• 3 years ago

Evil always wins.

One of the Most Controversial US Spy Programs Just Got Renewed

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