He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

https://www.ft.com/content/de5fea12-2938-4c20-b394-10ca258a5fa1

by Turukawa • 3 years ago

362 215 3 years ago

ft.com

baz00• 3 years ago

https://archive.ph/UAYFP

sour-taste• 3 years ago

Here's the mentioned letter: [PDF] https://chinalaborwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Engli...

zurfer• 3 years ago

Thank you for linking that. It is worth reading.

I'm always amazed how cheap and well China can manufacture a wide variety of devices. There is ofc a lot of expertise and economies of scale at work, but the letter is a sad reminder that at least some part comes from exploitation.

ametrau• 3 years ago

That was completely mind blowing.

udkl• 3 years ago

This was horrific ! Foxconn acted like a thug with connections to the local politicians and police to bully the whistleblower. I knew there were shady things going on in corporate China, but this was revealing.

This would definitely not be as bad in other countries like India where Foxconn is also trying to setup production.

incognition• 3 years ago

The story is so juicy. Taiwanese exploitation of the common worker just shows you how in bed the Taiwanese and Chinese Elites are, and also why production will never move to India. Apple loves that productivity

highwaylights• 3 years ago

One of these days I'm going to make the Internet prove to ME that IT's not a robot and see how it likes it

RCitronsBroker5• 3 years ago

cloudflare captchas really are a grade a pest at the moment, i already switched my DNS once because i always got stuck, now it happens again

croes• 3 years ago

IIRC it's not a cloudflare capture but a problem with DNS not providing certain informations.

tiew9Vii• 3 years ago

It’s stuck an an infinite loop for me.

Click the pictures, get the green tick, click the button, a brand new captcha

zxt_tzx• 3 years ago

I know this doesn't really solve the underlying problem, but I find that if I use Cloudflare's WARP (https://1.1.1.1/), Cloudflare is able to recognize the traffic is coming from itself and I can get past these captchas

ryloric2• 3 years ago

I wish HN gave me the ability to gild comments like reddit does.

financltravsty3• 3 years ago

I visited Reddit yesterday for the first time in a long time. I saw an interesting meme and wanted to write a long form piece of content in the comments. After I was done: I received two low-effort replies that revealed to me I have less-than-great communication skills or the readers put zero focus in active reading skills; and one reply with an axe to grind that focused on attacking me and making all sorts of assumptions on who I was as a person, while assuring me I was the person who couldn’t take someone challenging his ideas, and that I was the problem.

Reddit is a cesspit.

ianlevesque• 3 years ago

This website doesn’t ever work as a paywall bypass anymore. Just captchas for days.

dmd2• 3 years ago

No, that’s just them blocking your DNS provider. You’re using cloudflare, quad9, or similar. Google “cloudflare archive.is” for details.

botanical• 3 years ago

Try Bypass Paywalls Clean on Firefox. It works perfectly for me on most news sites.

stjohnswarts3• 3 years ago

that's weird, never an issue from me. Might try switching temporarily to quad 9 dns or something just as a quick test.

uconnectlol6• 3 years ago

this archive.is website (and its other domains) has been misconfigured in "I am under attack mode" since 2015 or so. which makes cloudflare's nonsense captcha come up every time you visit it (and / or just the javascript bot check script).

hoistbypetard• 3 years ago

Source?

That has never happened to me, and I use archive.is/archive.ph/whatever other domain they indicate I should use very regularly.

dang• 3 years ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38554322.

sgjohnson6• 3 years ago

Slavery is de-facto legal in China and their justice system is rotten to the core. Is this really news to anyone?

I would be surprised if this had ended differently.

ClumsyPilot6• 3 years ago

As our report describes in detail, the labor conditions of incarcerated workers in many U.S. prisons violate the most fundamental human rights to life and dignity,” said Clinical Prof. Claudia Flores, the director of the Global Human Rights Clinic. “In any other workplace, these conditions would be shocking and plainly unlawful

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-vio...

zaggynl2• 3 years ago

Whataboutism and you're comparing a factory to a prison.

sgjohnson6• 3 years ago

The US constitution actually allows slavery/involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, as per the 13th amendment:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

So it makes little sense to compare prison labour programs to "any other workplace".

mrweasel• 3 years ago

The slavery and working conditions in China no longer really surprises me, what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE.

I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China. What I cannot accept or understand is that the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly share my moral ideals, continues to do business with China, solely to increase profit. It's absolutely disgusting. The mental gymnastics these people have to do to justify or just ignore the problems is beyond what I can even imagine.

Xelbair• 3 years ago

they care about profit. they have to. At least in the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

pera• 3 years ago

Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE

They do care about profit margins, which is why they outsource slavery.

aleph_minus_one2• 3 years ago

What I cannot accept or understand is that the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly share my moral ideals

Are you really sure that these people share your own moral ideals? ;-)

hackerlight2• 3 years ago

continues to do business with China ... It's absolutely disgusting.

I want to inject some nuance here. Competition in the labor market, which drives business to low- or middle-income countries like China, is really really good for the typical low-middle income person in China. If wealthy countries pulled out entirely, then China's GDP per capita will probably drop from $12,000 back to sub-$5,000 and you will be causing more suffering for the people you're concerned about. By all means, advocate for better pay and conditions and regulations, but don't advocate for pulling out of poor or middle income countries with lax labor protections entirely. It wasn't clear to me which avenue you're arguing for but I feel it's an important point worth stressing.

ejb999• 3 years ago

talk about mental gymnastics - you just said

"I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China."

so, give them a pass with what they are doing and then criticize others that are giving them the same pass, and also choose to profit from it.

What about people who buy stuff made in China? do they get a pass too? So the only party at fault is the middle-man? slave owners get a pass, consumers that enable the slave owners get a pass and the only party at fault is the evil middle-man corporations?

If its wrong, its wrong for all parties, if its OK, its OK for all parties.

krageon3• 3 years ago

The west is built on the back of slavery, and this has never changed. It has just been moved to where we don't need to see it.

dieselgate• 3 years ago

Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE.

Western Consumers don't care either

octacat4• 3 years ago

The people would be like: "If our company does not benefit from chinese slaves, someone else will and steal our profits!". Which is kinda sadly true, because Amazon does not care were the stock items come from. You can produce in countries with strong work laws, but it is just too expensive.

(same with countries where we get energy resources from - they don't have ideal reputation for human rights, but they are cheap).

It is kinda simple: you can buy a tshirt from Italy produced in Italy and having price tag 3 times more. Or you can buy from China... Now think you are a company with thin margins and have to do the same... And your items are after getting sold on Amazon, which algorithms would force you to sell as cheap as possible, otherwise your item would not be seen in the search results.

vladms• 3 years ago

The companies respond mostly to what the public is willing to do about something. If the only thing people do is complaining on social networks then companies will not address the issue. If people will avoid a certain company based on their behavior then they will change it.

liendolucas• 3 years ago

Another huge problem is that most of the time there's really no other choice than to buy "Made in China". Even if you have the money and willing to spend more.

ako3• 3 years ago

Western companies can't afford to care, as their consumers are buying based on price. Bad working conditions usually mean lower prices, and more success for the company using this.

You can't expect companies to fix this, this needs to come through politics and government. Unfortunately, these days governments who try to address it will be considered enemies of capitalism, considered leftish or communist. As prices will have to rise and consumers won't allow for that.

bell-cot• 3 years ago

...the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly share my moral ideals, continues to do business...

SUPPOSEDLY - just like Big Tobacco has always wanted everyone to know the scientific truth about the health effects of smoking tobacco, right?

Capitalism optimizes for profit. If some profits need to be foregone or spent on pretending to share the moral ideals of the consumers - that also gets optimized, to minimize performative idealism and its costs.

isilofi3• 3 years ago

Nobody in power in industry and almost nobody from the consumer side cares about working conditions in any typical outsourcing country. Quite the opposite, "less regulation", "lower cost" and things like that are directly caused by ignoring worker rights and human rights (as well as a few other things).

China is not alone in this, just more present in the HN-relevant IT/tech sector. But clothing in southeast asia, mining in africa and south america, logistics/trucking in eastern europe are relevant examples from other regions and industries.

I don't intend to disperse responsibility here or distract, quite the opposite: One of the main reasons the aforementioned abuses can continue is that "the civilized west" systematically ignores those problems on all levels. There are some EU regulations coming up to improve this situation, but we'll have to wait and see on those...

MrVandemar2• 3 years ago

what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE.

Here's what it is: in law corporations are essentially given a weird kind of personhood. It's that way so corporations can get things done.

Unfortunately, corporations aren't people: they don't care, they don't have ethics, they don't have morals, they don't have values, they don't have family, they don't have a conscience.

It's not an original observation, but due to this, the type of person a company most resembles is one of posessing profound psychopathological traits.

d3w4s93• 3 years ago

Does it even matter? Lots of products on Amazon are produced by non-Western companies which very likely have questionable labor practice. Oh, these days people buy thing on Temu and Shein and things are shipped from outside the US. Consumers always look for the cheapest products, and nothing will change as long as that is true.

ClumsyPilot6• 3 years ago

Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE

They do, they hired killers to murder Union leaders in Columbia

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/jul/24/marketingandpr...

badpun• 3 years ago

I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China.

Do you really believe that Chinese are different from US in this regard? I.e. that most Chinese people believe that it's perfectly ok to exploit people to the bone, because they have alternatives? No, they, just like us, believe it's a rotten thing to do, and agree to it only because well, they have no alternatives. No different than the extremely exploited workers in hellish factories in XIX century US or England.

globalnode• 3 years ago

this is news to me. although i understand they have different systems im not sure ive ever heard it called slavery... do they? (i guess you could say some of the systems in western countries are a little like slavery but lets not get into that)

laborcontract2• 3 years ago

After reading both the article and his letter, I can't help but feel so, so sad. There's no glory for this guy. In the States, you'd be able to parlay something like this into a speaking/podcast tour, a book deal, and some consultancy gigs.

This guy's life is ruined, his extended family's social credit sullied and, in addition to serving time, he's become the one of the abused workers he tried to protect.

If I was the owner of a company and I had read that letter, I wouldn't be able to live with myself without first trying to do something about it. Maybe that's why I'm not the CEO of Amazon. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised. I know a guy who went mentally ill after his tenure there. Took him ten years to get back into another job. We're talking about the guy who thought a Vogue Cover with Lauren Sanchez was a good idea.

I'm not anti capitalism, anti manufacturing in china, or anti billionaire. I only wish that a human would deliver that letter to Jeff.

docflabby2• 3 years ago

Why would you think Jeff would care?

avidiax• 3 years ago

I would guess that Bezos has never read this letter. An underling of his would never present this letter to him unless Bezos has specifically asked to be presented such letters, and the fallout from this letter will never be sufficient to warrant his attention.

It's unfortunate that American and European voters don't realize that allowing our companies to do business with places famous for worker's rights abuses and lack of environmental controls affects them, too.

crossroadsguy• 3 years ago

I would guess that Bezos has never read this letter.

I would guess someone might have informed him of this letter or he might even as well have read it already. What I would not guess about is whether he would give two fucks about it. Because no he would not. Yes, he and his company has proven this.

Business and profit over all else. That is not just really a Chinese problem.

It surprises me how people still love to try to think that “Oh, this is such a horror! If only the Western corporate overlords had the time in their busy schedules to know of these, this would most likely go away”.

Nope, those cheap contracts were signed with this expectation to begin with it.

rafaelmn• 3 years ago

Isn't US using prisoners for (effectively) forced labor ?

US and EU are abusing (often illegal) immigrants and turning a blind eye to their terrible working conditions (eg. the slaughter house scandals in the EU that broke out during COVID).

Plenty of shit on our doorstep and people don't seem to be bothered that much stepping over it. Why would we be upset about a larger pile of shit a continent away ? We are so isolated from Chinese culture, I know very very little about China compared to NA and EU.

Also the west is happy to trade with way worse systems (by "our" standards) than China, middle east being the first to come to mind.

Not justifying China, just confused where these moral standard expectations are coming from.

blitzar2• 3 years ago

I would guess that Bezos read this letter, shruged and said something along the lines of "sucks to be him" while ordering a solid gold toilet for his yacht, because the platinum one was "too flashy"

docflabby2• 3 years ago

In a world run by sociopaths - whistleblowing is a trap to catch the people who could if instead of reporting the issues, they organised together and then could stop you...

I've yet to see any whistleblowing case not end badly.

rmellow• 3 years ago

Not to dismiss your statement entirely, but Frances Haugen is doing fine:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Haugen

maxlamb• 3 years ago

By her own admission she is supporting herself financially from “having bought crypto at the right time.” I’m guessing the vast majority of whistleblowers have that kind of financial cushion to risk it all like this. Source: https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/10/25/facebook-whistl...

RCitronsBroker5• 3 years ago

one case that consoles me is that harry markopolous, the quant who blew the whistle on madoff and his feeder funds-of-funds, despite rigorously not being listened to and almost being railroaded by an SEC coverup, at least got some sort of payout for his pain and suffering that went on for years. I cannot recommend his book enough.

BLKNSLVR4• 3 years ago

Man, the SEC covers itself in glory so frequently.

gorbachev• 3 years ago

https://constantinecannon.com/whistleblower/top-ten-whistleb...

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-89

https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/sherry-hunt-took-on-one...

Some (many?) of those folks did suffer discrimination and even outright persecution from their employers, and horrible financial strain before the eventual payout, but their cases eventually ended up quite well for them.

pandacake• 3 years ago

The odds are not in favor of whistleblowers. We need better protections against malicious companies such as Amazon.

PaulKeeble• 3 years ago

My experience of whistleblowing even here in the west is that usually it goes very very badly. The only real thing open to you is to refuse to do anything unethical, quit and walk away. Many people can't afford to do that. Things ought to be different but we live in corrupt societies where the law is different for the rich and powerful than for everyone else.

throwawaysleep2• 3 years ago

Not surprising that it will go badly. Most of us have some secrets to hide, so the individuals that make up society have an incentive to exclude such people from their lives.

I couldn’t trust a whistleblower. While grateful for a lot of the work they do, I never want to be their target and would never risk getting close to them.

jackdaniel3• 3 years ago

While I disagree with your opinion, I appreciate a lot that you've stated it. That's a very honest thing to say.

monsieurbanana• 3 years ago

No, most of us don't have that kind of secrets.

I have secrets, but if someone were to leak them nobody would seriously employ the term "whisteblower".

Implying that because someone doesn't want to stay quiet when he sees unethical/unlawful things they can't be trusted on a personal level is a dehumanizing thing to say.

I might be breaking a rule here, but this comment could probably be found verbatim in some company's playbook to discourage whiteblowing.

whitepaint• 3 years ago

And I couldn't trust someone who couldn't trust a whistleblower. Like what the hell did you do that you really don't want others to find out..?

Buttons840• 3 years ago

Most of us have some secrets to hide

It's a bit reductionist to consider the things that get whistleblown about as just "everyone has their secrets". Alice is illegally spying on all of society, well, everyone has their secrets. Billy has a porno magazine hidden in his closet, well, everyone has their secrets. Charlie is stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from taxpayers, well, everyone has their secrets. Daryl is running a child trafficking ring, well, everyone has their secrets. Not all secrets are the same.

I couldn’t trust a whistleblower. While grateful for a lot of the work they do, I never want to be their target and would never risk getting close to them.

So, you make it a little more likely that whistleblowers will have a hard time, and a little more likely that whistleblowers will be discouraged from ever whistleblowing in the first place. The end result is that you are a little more likely to be affected by the corruption that might have been stopped by whistleblowers.

Everyone has their definition about what a "good person" is. Let me offer my definition. A "good person" is someone who is more likely to benefit than to be harmed by widespread wistleblowing. Good people should want whistleblowers to be protected and commonplace.

meiraleal2• 3 years ago

secrets aren't crimes. to work with a criminal is much more riskier

Beijinger3• 3 years ago

There is truth on this. People love treason but they hate the traitor. In the US you can get a lot of money for whistle-blowing. You will need it. Don't expect to ever find a decent job afterwards.

ClumsyPilot6• 3 years ago

I couldn’t trust a whistleblower.

You see, it makes sence, consider that guy over there - corporate drone, climbing the ladder, would sell his own mother - totally trustworthy, you know what he is gonna do.

But this guy, who values his abstract principles and integrity above any social contract? Can you tell when he has had enough? Do you even know what his values are? What if, one day, he decides that the place is so miserable, so corrupt, so complicit in suffering, that he just burns it all to the ground?

keiferski2• 3 years ago

I encourage anyone interested in the consequences of whistleblowing to watch The Insider. A truly excellent film about a whistleblower at a tobacco company and the terrible things they did to try and stop him. Russell Crowe, Al Pacino, Bruce McGill, Christopher Plummer, many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Wigand

Trailer: https://youtu.be/MGOb29aePyc

The best scene: https://youtu.be/gNKmmA6_oTQ

LastNevadan• 3 years ago

A similar film is Silkwood, which is about the life of Karen Silkwood, who reported concerns about corporate practices related to health and safety in a nuclear facility where she worked. She was severely harassed by her employer and then died in a suspicious car accident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Silkwood

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/silkwood

borbulon• 3 years ago

A Michael Mann film, no less! An all-around great piece of cinema.

quartz• 3 years ago

So many good scenes. Personal favorite, grappling with the role of journalism: "What are you?! Are you a businessman or are you a newsman?" Such a powerful question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe2vBnfKCC4

gruez• 3 years ago

I encourage anyone interested in the consequences of whistleblowing to watch The Insider.

Surely there's better sources to read/watch than a fictional dramatization?

bin_bash• 3 years ago

watched it based on this suggestion, really enjoyed it!

bambax2• 3 years ago

Of course, but I don't think it's specific to "the west" or "corrupt societies". It's human nature. If you're part of a group and you speak against the group, esp. to another group, the group will move to destroy you.

It doesn't matter if you're right; it doesn't matter if the group is doing bad things; it doesn't matter if speaking up will help save lives.

The function of the group is to survive as a group; it will do whatever it takes to achieve that.

Laws that go against human nature fight an uphill battle; it doesn't mean we should not try, but it does mean we should be aware of the difficulty.

mewpmewp24• 3 years ago

Yeah, in the end it all comes down to game theory.

lynx233• 3 years ago

You pretty much nailed it. Its only a whistleblower to outsides, its a mudslinger to insiders.

dustingetz2• 3 years ago

well stated! i would add that the solution is to find a path of action that does not actually go against human nature but rather embraces it. My favorite historical example is religion, e.g. Moses and the 10 Commandments.

saiya-jin• 3 years ago

This. Its an uphill battle, and given the risks and rewards ratio definitely the smartest thing is to quietly walk away and report to regulators anonymously if possible.

The amount of cases where C-suites or owners take it very personally and go on vengeance streak are many... you don't want to fight bunch of very well-connected rich sociopaths hell-bent on destroying you or worse, and from position of a 'nice guy'.

runnerup2• 3 years ago

I don’t think it’s normal human nature to assault / murder / psychologically torture / ruin the life of / etc someone who points out what your group is doing wrong. It may happen from time to time, enough that it should be a potential expected response. But just like psychopathy and schizophrenia are abnormal, so is murdering or ruining the life of a whistleblower.

1-2% of the population may be a sociopath / psychopath — but its still considered “abnormal psychology”.

If someone had proof that a device I made was hurting people, I wouldn’t try to destroy their life or kill them.

A lot of this whistleblowing doesnt even have jailtime as a consequence to those who failed their duty of care - often it just means they’ll make a few million less dollars but still be plenty comfortable.

We shouldn’t feel its “normal” to murder / torture / assault or ruin the lives of these whistleblowers any more than we think sociopaths are “normal”.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/ebay-execs-sent-... <- this is not just normal “human nature”. It’s the result of abnormal psychology.

ikurei• 3 years ago

So many laws go against human nature; those might be the most important laws.

I don't expect the greedy and powerful to change, but as a society we should do more to protect whistleblowers, the same way we protect threatened witnesses.

Also, more solidarity between workers, although not always possible, would go a long way. So many Google employees can definitely afford to quit in solidarity, or strike. Not saying it's easy, I recognize it isn't.

mr_toad• 3 years ago

If you’re a good guy you’re “a member of the public”. If you’re a bad guy you’re “an individual”.

ordu2• 3 years ago

Laws that go against human nature fight an uphill battle

I'm reluctant to name it "human nature", but let it be.

Most laws are needed to restrict "human nature". Moral codes exist to restrict "human nature". So it is the fate of a law.

The function of the group is to survive as a group; it will do whatever it takes to achieve that.

It is an oversimplification I believe. Groups have very different goals, and sometimes money is more important then group existence. Groups can accept additional existential risks to increase profits, in such cases it means money has more importance for a group than its existence.

WinstonSmith84• 3 years ago

OP has written: > even here in the west

No indeed it's not specific to the west, but the emphasis was worth it: many western people have such an high opinion of their country that they believe it could only happen in Iran, Russia, North Korea and the likes

Zambyte• 3 years ago

If you're part of a group and you speak against the group, esp. to another group, the group will move to destroy you.

Not all "groups" are created equal though. I think a big factor in this is how much people make the group a part of their personal identity. If they feel like they are the group (ie "I am American"), then they feel like an attack on the group is an attack on them (is "Americans are dumb" means I am dumb).

Not all groups latch on to their members sense of identity like that, and in that case an attack on the group is much more acceptable to members of the group.

ClumsyPilot6• 3 years ago

I don't think it's specific to "the west" or "corrupt societies". It's human nature.

The west is unique because it has created a very believable façade of cleanliness, majority of the population believes that whistleblowing works and often allegations of corruption are treated like conspiracy theory.

In, let's say, Russia, everyone knows that things are corrupt, at least they are realists.

fight an uphill battle

For some reason our ideology talks about entrepreneurs as wealth creators and completely forgets about wealth creators that our society doesn't reward or punishes, like whistle-blowers.

dvdkon• 3 years ago

You'd do good to expect a threatened group (or individual) to lash out, but that's precisely why we have anti-retaliation laws. Think of them not as telling people they shouldn't try to destroy opponents, but that the society around them will punish them if they do, since it's beneficial for that society.

After all, laws in a rule-of-law country are better thought of as restrictions on the state, not the individual. Without criminal law, what's stopping a police officer for killing you if they think it's appropriate? Laws protecting whistleblowers can then be seen as a promise by society to individuals: "If you come forward, we have the power to protect you."

gadders2• 3 years ago

Unless you're Bradley Birkenfield [1]

TBH that's the only circumstance in which I think it would make sense to whistle blow.

"In 2012, as a consequence of his whistleblower status, the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS) awarded him $104 million, 26% of the total $400 million in taxes returned. It was the 4th reward paid to date since the IRS Whistleblower Program went into effect in 2006."

He did 40 months in prison as well but stil...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Birkenfeld

plagiarist2• 3 years ago

I would almost be okay with 40 months in white-collar prison for $104 million. It is a pretty long time, though.

jstarfish2• 3 years ago

TBH that's the only circumstance in which I think it would make sense to whistle blow.

It's equally-lucrative in Defense. You won't work anywhere ever again, but the DoD pays out enough to make it worth your while.

Beijinger3• 3 years ago

People love treason but they hate the traitor :-)

Forget about whistle-blowing in Europe, it will likely blow up in your face. Best thing is, if you are in a company with unethical behavior, to pack your stuff and leave ASAP and hope that you don't get anything of the fallout.

loa_in_• 3 years ago

Can you elaborate?

hef19898• 3 years ago

One of the reasons I like the SEC solution so much: It is annonymous, you can provide info through am attorny and the payouts for whistleblowers are high enough that people can, theoretically, stop working and retire.

baner2020• 3 years ago

Oh yeah… a country where most safety features… seat belts (for example or lead poisoning) are results of whistleblowers, yet the path is paved with retaliatory actions , hr taking it like a personal jihad to prove the conversation wrong …. I can personally relate to what it feels to take punches

If the person has pre existing medical condition like diabetes, doing good will literally cost one’s life . Living the experience, for voicing discrimination at employment situation

Have interviewed 176 attorneys over 2 year period with only 5 confirming that the discrimination is illegal , but they had signed agreements to not represent employees.

Found out that one can buyout judges, apparently a judge can punish a legal practice if they don’t want a whistleblower case be presented

Being rich definitely allows one to be ignorant all these ongoing friction in life

mx_03• 3 years ago

For sure walk away if the company asks you to something ilegal. Not worth the jail time even if you cant afford having no job.

didntknowya• 3 years ago

idk the SEC whistleblower payout seems to be working for some.

berniedurfee• 3 years ago

I think part of the problem is there aren’t really any “good guys” in most cases.

With regulatory capture and the revolving door between .com and .gov, those who run the corporations and those who are supposed to respond to the whistle are often hanging out in the same back rooms.

The general response seems to be a slap on the wrist and a hardy “Don’t get caught doing that again!”

jongjong• 3 years ago

I've never worked for any major tech corporation. I've had opportunities to apply to Amazon and Facebook but never followed through with any of them. It's partly for moral reasons but also partly out of fear because I'm worried about what that would look like on my record in 10 or 20 years' time if the world returns to sanity. We've seen what happens to members of distrusted groups during periods of social upheaval. I just cannot bring myself to bet on never-ending insanity. I cannot imagine such world. I'm already worried about my background in tech causing problems.

Admittedly, I couldn't imagine the world we have today 10 years ago and I can't imagine the world in 10 years time if it continues down that path. I just don't see the point. I don't want to be rich in such a hypothetical hell hole so my mind doesn't see the point going there.

dkbrk• 3 years ago

As a regular reader of Matt Levine this sounds like an opportunity for a securities fraud suit. Surely Amazon has said that its factories follow local labor laws, that whistleblowers are protected etc. That seems like a fairly standard thing for a large corporation to claim.

bootstraping• 3 years ago

Article link without paywall: http://archive.today/UAYFP

DanielHB2• 3 years ago

Didn't the US have a whistleblower bounty with the IRS? I heard it was one of the most successful programs they ever ran. Whistleblow on your company's tax evasion and you get paid a pretty good chunk of money from the IRS. IRS collects its due and you get paid proportional to the amount of tax revenue evaded (I remember a few cases where the whistleblower got tens of millions of dollars).

It is kind of bizarre, but the incentives are perfectly aligned, if the tax evasion sum is low you get paid less therefor it is not worth whistleblowing. The IRS doesn't want to catch the small fries, to some extent tax evasion is desired for smaller companies.

thfuran2• 3 years ago

The IRS doesn't want to catch the small fries, to some extent tax evasion is desired for smaller companies.

What?

jabroni_salad• 3 years ago

That does come across weirdly but the IRS is a perennial favorite defund target so they don't have the resources to go after everyone, they should only choose juicier cases in that respect.

There are some good points in this article (the optimal amount of fraud is non-zero) that can be extrapolated to other parts of the financial world. The highest level point is that sometimes, a little slippage is needed for business to get done, and getting business done is the main goal of the economy.

https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fra...

kabanda1• 3 years ago

Whitsle blowing is fine. Just don't do it against government or corporations that control 70% of your country's capital

honzaik• 3 years ago

"Under Chinese competition law, the complainant has to show proof that their business operations were hurt by the theft of trade secrets. Foxconn said that, as a result of Tang’s disclosures, it had incurred costs of Rmb1.4mn (about £150,000) in August from having to raise its salaries."

I don't think this would even fly in the US.

I_Am_Nous2• 3 years ago

I guess the distinction would come from whether salary levels are considered "trade secrets". In the US it definitely wouldn't fly, salary discussions are specifically allowed and retaliation against people discussing their salaries is illegal. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen under some other pretext, but it definitely won't be as blatant.

sersi• 3 years ago

Would there be a way to contact him and organize some fundraising for him?

lynx233• 3 years ago

What is a whistleblower to some, is a mudslinger to others.

BLKNSLVR4• 3 years ago

Again, someone using far too kind a word.

Where "others" = "total fucking sociopaths who know nothing but greed and should not be participants in society".

In that case, yes, I agree.

1letterunixname• 3 years ago

It's naive and foolish to upset the money gravy train.

The reality is most countries are corrupted to varying degrees by economic concerns, and it doesn't matter if the country claims to be communist or not.

There is no reward except misery, exile, indefinite imprisonment, and/or assassination for pie-eyed, meat-headed idealists.

srameshc• 3 years ago

What a shame that companies in question don't even address that a human's right had been violated and do what is right. At least Foxconn could have done the some thing for Tang Mingfang if it wasn't Amazon, if it adressed the issues they had.

He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

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