Geocoder.ca sued by Canada Post for their open database of postal codes

by kennywinker • 14 years ago

288 84 14 years ago

kennywinker4• 14 years ago

I came across this while researching postal code data. I was first shocked to learn that this data set wasn't freely available from Canada Post ($5,000/year to access it), then pleased to find geocoder.ca's data set, and then pissed to learn they were being sued for it.

So far there has been absolutely no media attention on this.

canadiancreed5• 14 years ago

Which sadly isnt' surprising. The combination of it being something that would only affect a small group of people (basically anyone in the IT industry building location-aware applications), and the media's ADD-like ability to concentrate on issues will keep it from ever seeing the light of day.

I don't know what this government has against the tech industry in this country, but it must be some serious loathing with all the BS coming down the pipes

kennywinker4• 14 years ago

This goes back a long way. Amazing amounts of GIS data for the U.S. was available from tonnes of vendors sliced and diced in all sorts of interesting way on a CD-ROMs for < $100 way back in 1996. Canada, not so much. $3,000-15,000 for similar data. Because StatsCan and other organizations were selling it to big corporations who could pay that price tag... the result of that policy? Google maps could never have started in Canada.

wmil• 14 years ago

I think it goes back to a cultural problem with government. They don't acknowledge hobby research as legitimate or useful.

So they release data to universities and charge everyone else an obscene amount.

This kills a lot of start up ideas.

earlyriser• 14 years ago

I have emailed a journalist, I hope this will be helpful.

nknight• 14 years ago

I don't even understand how you found it, I can't seem to navigate to the announcement from their front page. If they make it impossible to find, it's quite understandable nobody knows about it.

Aethaeryn• 14 years ago

It's not easy to find, but I've managed to work out what seems to be the shortest route.

Step 1: Start at http://geocoder.ca/

Step 2: Click "Free Data" -> http://geocoder.ca/?freedata=1

Step 3: Click "You haven't made it until you get sued" -> http://geocoder.ca/?sued=1

There seems to be no mention of "sued" in the source of the front page.

dmix• 14 years ago

For those curious, the US government releases geocoded zip codes openly:

http://www.census.gov/tiger/tms/gazetteer/zips.txt

adatta02• 14 years ago

Do you know how accurate that is? Every time I've seen census zip code data it comes with a big disclaimer that its only accurate as of the last census. The USPS changes zip codes at will.

enf• 14 years ago

TIGER is the Census geo data set. This is "zip code tabulation areas," not strict zip codes. The Census does update its maps more frequently than every 10 years though.

cmelbye• 14 years ago

My zip code isn't in there, and neither is one from a nearby city.

guan• 14 years ago

They are not very accurate if you are trying to map addresses to zip codes, for example. The data is compiled based on Census tracts. For each census tract, it tells you the most common zip code in that tract.

maratd2• 14 years ago

Thank you very much for the link! Didn't know about that one. I have always used:

http://www.zip-codes.com/

They do charge a nominal fee, but the data quality is excellent and they have monthly updates.

skeletonjelly2• 14 years ago

Likewise in Australia. http://auspost.com.au/products-and-services/download-postcod...

quink2• 14 years ago

Actually, and I quote:

> expressly forbidden to [...] use in any database and/or application for the purposes of providing, updating or maintaining any publicly available postcode look up or finder functionality;

You're not allowed to use the Australian post code database as provided by Australia Post to provide a lookup or finder functionality that's publicly available.

twelvechairs• 14 years ago

Just a note to make sure we are all comparing apples with apples, but US (and Australian) postcodes are much less specific than Canadian (and UK) postcodes.

AFAIK In Canada and the UK a postcode gives you an exact address, or pretty close to (around 10-20 properties to each postcode?). In the USA and Australia, a post code just gives you a 'suburb' (hundreds to thousands of properties to each postcode).

mcpherrinm• 14 years ago

Some postal codes contain at least 5000 people, but at the same time my apartment building has one of its own.

I think it's largely based on how mail is distributed, as they are Canada Post identifiers. My 5000 person hometown has no delivery -- everyone goes to the one post office. But my apartment building has its own little postal box thing, which requires a key from the mailman, which is a special case compared to dropping in mailboxes on the rest of the street.

I don't suppose there's any postal workers on here to chime in?

stordoff• 14 years ago

Generally speaking, a postcode refers to a road, part of a road (if the road is very long), or a single organisation. Roughly, you will have 1-100 properties per postcode.

The first line of the address (often just the house number) and the postcode are sufficient to yield the entire address.

omgtehlion• 14 years ago

Furthemore, Russian govt releases full information on Postal Codes, Cities, Streets and even House numbers on those streets. For free, but in very large files http://fias.nalog.ru/Public/DownloadPage.aspx

rmc4• 14 years ago

All works of the US government have to be public domain AFAIR. It's great.

Karunamon• 14 years ago

So what are the Canadian copyright laws like? I was under the impression that you can't copyright facts.

canadiancreed5• 14 years ago

Depends on how you interpret it. You are correct in that you can't coyright facts, but I'm sure the lawyers that Canada Post has hired will argue that since Canada Post created/authored the postal codes, it has ownership of that data and therefore can be copyrighted. The rest is just a combo of spin and waiting for the sued parties to be bled dry.

If a country that is more capitalist and copyright mad then we are has no issue providing postal data, that our crown corporation has their panties in a twist is a cruel joke. Just adds another reason why I'd never use Canada Post for anything anyways.

bengl• 14 years ago

The other question is whether the postal code data falls under Crown Copyright (http://publications.gc.ca/site/eng/ccl/aboutCrownCopyright.h...). There all all kinds of restrictions and freedoms that come along with that.

Of course, it might not be the case that Canada Post data is under Crown Copyright, since it's a Crown corporation and not a government department. IANAL.

randomdata• 14 years ago

If that is the case, wouldn't sharing your postal address be considered a derivative work?

I have made no agreements with Canada Post to distribute my address, the right has only been assumed on my part. It could turn out to be a dangerous liability for all Canadians if it holds up.

jcoder• 14 years ago

The State of Oregon went through a similar situation in 2008. Justia.com was mirroring the Oregon Revised Statutes, and was served a cease & desist—not because the State claimed copyright over the laws themselves, but rather over the metadata such as indices, tables, line numbers, etc. In the end, the State agreed not to assert copyright over the laws (though that does not equal an admission that they do not have copyright). More: https://public.resource.org/oregon.gov/index.html#trail

GiraffeNecktie• 14 years ago

It would be an interesting case. I hope it goes to court but there's probably no chance that it will unless somebody takes it on pro bono. Is there any organization like the EFF in Canada?

hub_4• 14 years ago

There is no EFF equivalent in Canada.

But the CIPPIC is acting as counsel for these guys. They know what they are doing and are the closest I can see.

rpeden• 14 years ago

There's an update at the bottom of the linked Geocoder page that says the site is now being represented in federal court by the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic.

There's more info about CIPPIC at http://www.cippic.ca/en

Heliosmaster• 14 years ago

I emailed the EFF, pointing at that blog-post. I hope they will at least provide some counseling to the guys.

tomwalsham• 14 years ago

While many jurisdictions hold the same, that 'facts' can't be subject to copyright, there is often a (lobbied for) grey area surrounding compilations of facts.

The usual suspects in these cases are recipes, Geodata and my personal favourite - Premier League Football fixtures. The latter is in the final stages of a European court challenge that is rightly claiming licensing such a simple set of data for thousands of pounds is absurd: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17218968

rmc4• 14 years ago

I was under the impression that you can't copyright facts.

It depends.

In some places you can copyright a database of facts. In some places you cannot copyright a database of facts. In some places you need to do some 'creative act' to get copyright, some places use a 'sweat of the brow' rule (i.e. that you have expanded some effort, even if it's not creative). It gets coplicated.

chollida1• 14 years ago

> I was under the impression that you can't copyright facts.

I'm not sure. But I'd imagine that books like the Guinness book of world records is probably under copyright and its' just a collection of facts.

pagekalisedown• 14 years ago

How can this data not be public domain?

Joakal• 14 years ago

If you think that's bad, government laws are copyrighted in some parts of the world. Yes, you're a pirate if you try to share government laws.

zem• 14 years ago

including the usa: http://boingboing.net/2012/03/19/liberating-americas-secret....

hub_4• 14 years ago

Canada law is weird. They have "Crown copyright". As for Canada Post, they are required to make money, and are not required to not exploit publicly funded dataset like the postal code database. This is called monopoly.

frankus• 14 years ago

I keep that particular quirk (along with their appointed senate) in my back pocket for whenever I need to name an area in which US law is more democratic/liberal than Canadian law :)

rmc4• 14 years ago

Canada law is weird. They have "Crown copyright"

I don't know about Canada, but the UK has 'crown copyright', and it's essentially the same as regular copyright, but the copyright is owned by the government. Places without a crown still have governments that have copyright.

There some weird things, The King James Bible, the Book of Common Prayer, and the Peter Pan stories are under perpetual unending copyright. (Well Peter Pan will go public domain when the Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital ceases to exist)

rmc4• 14 years ago

In the USA, thankfully, all federally made data is public domain. In other countries, it's not. It's terrible.

skylan_q• 14 years ago

I wouldn't worry about this getting anywhere. And if it does, I'm pretty sure the current gov't will smack Canada Post silly as retaliation.

sycr2• 14 years ago

They charge $500 for their data set. An easy way to combat this litigation would be to release the set gratis. Let the information flow.

hub_4• 14 years ago

5000$. Missing a zero.

shinratdr• 14 years ago

He was referring to Geocoder. Geocoder sells their database for commercial use for $500.

sycr2• 14 years ago

As has been pointed out, I was referring to Geocoder's rates. I had the same confusion though. The request for donations certainly makes it seem like they are beneficent, but they are themselves selling the data. Not that that's legally or morally wrong (certainly not) - it's just a different position to be in.

kennywinker4• 14 years ago

a) Geocoder only charges for their data if you need it without the restrictions of the ODbLicence it's released under (basically attribution, share-alike).

b) giving it away for free would not actually change anything legally. You can still get sued for copyright infringement even if you don't make any money on it.

afhof• 14 years ago

Is there a link to the C&D or the court case details? I'm sure we can agree that helping people with zipcode data for free is laudable, but reading only one half of an argument isn't a good way to make decisions.

motti_s• 14 years ago

Things are changing. Technology is cheaper, internet is prevalent and small organizations disrupt the ways of the dinosaurs. We've seen that with newspapers, we are seeing that with Hollywood and we'll soon see it in education. The dinosaurs are big and powerful, but we all know what happens to them eventually. Sooner or later technology wins. Always.

Having said that I hope Geocoder gets help with PR. I'm no PR expert but the fact that this post is not on their front page is the first bad sign. And the media, which always loves a David & Goliath story, apparently hasn't covered this; that's another bad sign. Swaying public opinion to your side is the way to win this, not litigation. If Geocoder lets Canada Post drag them to court they've already lost.

As a Canadian I'm one of the owners of Canada Post and I hope I lose.

tyrelb• 14 years ago

Canada Post is pretty stupid on this one. Even if you type a postal code into Google Maps you get a result.

I could imagine how old and stupid the gov't official is who filed that claim. Canada's a broke country, and the latest government budget has cut a tonne of government jobs, slashed R&D credits, etc.

abrichr• 14 years ago

Canada's a broke country

On what basis do you make that claim?

tabbyjabby• 14 years ago

Canada has the lowest debt to GDP ratio in the G7. We've been in surplus for the greater part of the last decade, and are soon to be back in the black. Broke? I'm not so sure about that.

shock3naw• 14 years ago

Even if Canada 'was' broke, I'd have to say it's better than being over $15.5 trillion in debt ;)

edit: Assumed an American is making the comment.

3pt141592• 14 years ago

Unlike the States, Canada does not have a cash-in-cash-out system for our version of Social Security, so many debt to gdp figures you look up online are very, very misleading since we will be in much better shape when the baby boomers retire.

loverobots• 14 years ago

Canada has the potential of becoming like USA was in the 1900's. Look at the map and think of all the natural resources to be shared by under 40 million people.

liquidcool• 14 years ago

Along the PR lines, it seems like something their local- well, I'm an ignorant American so whatever the equivalent of Congressperson is (the Queen?) - might want to involve themselves in. As it's not actual DB theft, it seems like they are trying to create a monopoly (albeit a very narrow one).

3pt141592• 14 years ago

Member of Parliament or MP for short. Also, MPPs (Member of Provincial Parliament) could probably help here too.

ktizo3• 14 years ago

This has strong echoes of the Astrolabe/Olson case, only is possibly even more nutty, somewhat better funded and a hell of a lot less excusable on the part of Canada Post.

Legally it should be a walk for Geocoder, but I wouldn't like to make a wager on it.

elchief• 14 years ago

i guess somebody should put their database on bittorrent pretty quick

my cousin works in PR for canada post. i emailed him to get the scoop. will post here when i do.

meiji• 14 years ago

The issue with these postcode databases is that once they're released to a customer there's no real way of tracking if they get reused elsewhere. The contract I had with the Royal Mail in the UK mandated destruction of all media and backups of the database once the contract period expired. As we know, getting individual tables out of old DB backups isn't necessarily easy but that's what the terms state. It's easy to see why they do that because it's not really a complicated "product" and very easy to duplicate.

That said, Canada Post should have tried to talk before litigation as all this does is make a crown organisation look like a bully in front of Canadians and now the world.

AliAdams• 14 years ago

I'm likely speaking from the wrong culture, but the phrasing "You haven't made it until you get sued" on their home page sounds like Geocoder are attempting to spin a bit of a complement for themselves rather than going for the image of a David being bullied by a Goliath.

I hope I'm write in suggesting that such a phrasing may not the best way of getting support.

Geocoder.ca sued by Canada Post for their open database of postal codes

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