Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/nov/02/beauty-of-infrastructure-electric-mountain-dinorwig-power-station-north-wales

by elemeno • 3 years ago

91 62 3 years ago

theguardian.com

xkekjrktllss• 3 years ago

The intro paragraph is about halfway down after a mass of self-indulgence. It should have been first, of course.

londons_explore5• 3 years ago

Not stated in the article: There are very few places in the world with two large lakes, separated by a lot of height and not much distance.

Wherever that happens, it is probably financially a good idea to build one of these.

But that geography is really rather rare, so the rest of the world will probably have to use gas peaker plants (environment-killing) or battery storage (expensive).

eppp2• 3 years ago

There are lots of places where such things can be built though. TVA's Raccoon Mountain is an example. https://www.tva.com/energy/our-power-system/hydroelectric/ra...

There is water at the base of a lot of mountains, just knock the top off and build a lake.

sambeau9• 3 years ago

There’s really not a lot of point these days. Batteries can be used for load balancing and pump-storage is very inefficient.

sambeau9• 3 years ago

Pump-storage hydro is for load balancing as it can’t store anything on a grid scale and is very inefficient. Sadly, it could never replace gas — the U.K. alone would need thousands.

Gud• 3 years ago

It is absolutely "grid scale". Did you read the article?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroel...

toomuchtodo4• 3 years ago

Keep an eye on Australia, Snowy 2 (whose costs are blowing out) [1], and battery uptake [2]. Based on cost decline curves of lithium scale utility storage, batteries will be cheaper by the time Snowy is commissioned. Battery manufacturing is ramping because every automaker is being forced to electrify, Tesla is preparing to build a second Megafactory factory for battery storage in China [3], and batteries can be installed anywhere.

Batteries can also provide grid support (frequency and voltage support when transmission or generators trip) and can be grid forming now; instead of having to follow the grid, they can drive grid health, including black start [4] when the grid is down. In South Australia, a new battery storage facility has recently come online and is in testing to enable AEMO, the grid operator, to turn down the requirement for ~70MW of constant fossil gas generation for grid services [5].

[1] https://reneweconomy.com.au/snowy-2-much-how-can-a-2-2gw-wat... ("This is the fourth time Snowy 2.0’s cost has been reset – from $2 billion in 2017, to $3.8-$4.5 billion later that year, to $5.1 billion in 2019, to $5.9 billion in 2020, to $12 billion now (2023).")

[2] https://www.energy-storage.news/global-bess-deployments-to-e... ("Global BESS deployments to exceed 400GWh annually by 2030, says Rystad Energy")

[3] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-megafactory-constructi... ("Tesla’s estimated initial production capacity for the China-based Megapack factory is 10,000 units per year or about 40GWh.") [My note: This is equal to their existing capacity in Lathrop, California]

[4] https://www.nrel.gov/grid/black-start.html

[5] https://opennem.org.au/facilities/sa1/?selected=TIB&tech=bat... ("Torrens Island BESS")

stephen_g• 3 years ago

Of course, Snowy 2 was a political project for which the planning was totally under-baked. It was a compromise set off by a centrist who was lukewarmly pro-renewable energy, but leading a party that was mostly dead against it and just wanted the Government to pump money into expanding fossil fuel ('coincidently' many of these MPs in the party have direct or indirect investment and interest in coal mining companies, oil and gas industry links, etc.).

There was always much better ways the money could have been spent, like investment into offshore wind, battery banks etc. but to directly invest in renewables and battery storage was and is politically untenable for that party. The Government has changed now to the party that doesn't have the same kind of direct fossil fuel investments, but unfortunatly the massive political donations from the resource industry and oil & gas to our politicians is bipartisan so they talk 'clean energy' while not that much actually changes...

_kb• 3 years ago

If you're watching Australia, there's also this further up north: https://qldhydro.com.au/.

The Borumba site will provide 2,000MW generation with 48GWh of storage and works are starting now.

Meanwhile Pioneer-Burdekin is currently scoped as 5,000MW with 120GWh (not a typo) of storage. Assuming it proceeds to that spec it will be the largest pumped hydro station out there.

FFP9995• 3 years ago

Is there any reason that "lakes" (i.e. big holes) can't be dug where they would be useful for this purpose?

(Update: for those who are downvoting, it was a serious question.)

ajb• 3 years ago

Well at least one of these was originally a quarry, so yes. But it would raise the cost a lot, if the excavate wasn't valuable as in this case.

sambeau9• 3 years ago

I’ve seen a suggestion that you could use two spheres in the sea one deep down, one near the surface.

AlexAndScripts• 3 years ago

If this were the 1950s I'm sure somebody would have tried nukes!

hwillis• 3 years ago

1. The lower lake still needs to be substantially above sea level and the local water table etc. so that it can actually be drained and so that it doesn't just fill up with local water. You can't do this by the hoover dam, since you'd also have to lower the river another few dozen meters. That's more challenging than it sounds, since you'd have to continue digging all along its path until you reached the place that the river naturally fell to that lower altitude.

2. Reservoirs are very large. The lower reservoir in this article is 7 million cubic meters[1]. The Hoover dam passes 289 million cubic meters of water daily, with around 78.3 million cubic meters of that generating electricity. The largest land vehicle in the world can excavate 700k cubic meters per day[2].

[1] https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/423380 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overburden_Conveyor_Bridge_F60

3. We do dig them out- the reservoir in the article was substantially enlarged. But it's still rare to find places you can actually do that.

4. The upper reservoir is a totally different question. It would take over 125 years to dig out a hole the size of Lake Mead for the Hoover Dam. It would take almost a million of the bombs used the Sedan nuclear test[3] to dig that hole.

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedan_(nuclear_test)

cesarb• 3 years ago

There are very few places in the world with two large lakes, separated by a lot of height and not much distance.

You only need one large lake (or a place which can be dammed to create one); the other one can be completely artificial, with no water inflow or outflow other than through the pumps/turbines. In fact, I think it might even be possible to make both reservoirs completely artificial, and fill them by pumping water from somewhere else. That makes the necessary geography a lot less rare; you only need the appropriate height difference, and the ability to create artificial reservoirs on both ends.

londons_explore5• 3 years ago

Yes, but large artificial lakes aren't known for being cheap.

Pumped storage needs big lakes - a swimming pool on the top of a mountain isn't going to cut it.

bryanlarsen• 3 years ago

Counterexample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power...

They only started with a single lake and a moderate amount of elevation.

Dachande663• 3 years ago

I had the luck to visit this as a child, before all the tourist side of it was shut down. I remember taking the bus past the giant turbine hall. A few facts I can remember:

1. Carol Vorderman did a lot of the engineering calculations, before she started on Countdown (probably only relevant to the UK lot).

2. They couldn't run powerlines from the facility to the grid as it's an AONB so they had to run them underground at a cost of £1M per mile for however many miles.

Great place along with Sellafield and the wind turbines in Norfolk for a kid to visit.

Neil442• 3 years ago

Sounds like we did a similar set of school trips, I remember standing in a big loud hall on top of the Sellafield reactor, and down inside electric mountain by the big turbines. I was most sad that they don't do tours at the moment, I wanted to take my daughter there.

FFP9995• 3 years ago

You may not have heard, but they had a little trouble there at one point, I wouldn't take a kid there.

becurious• 3 years ago

You could also visit the Wylfa nuclear plant on Anglesey. Not sure when tours stopped (probably due to security) but you could see the reactor. All closed now.

kraftman• 3 years ago

I did this at primary school too! We had a picnic next the bottom lake.

LastTrain• 3 years ago

AONB = Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty

squigg3• 3 years ago

If you are ever up in Scotland, you can still visit Cruachan - the sister power station at Loch Awe with a very similar design. I took my children there two months ago. They were as amazed as I hoped they would be! Visiting hours here: https://www.visitcruachan.co.uk/

If you are a Harry Potter fan, it's not far from Loch Awe to the famous viaduct at Glenfinnan as well. Details here: https://www.nts.org.uk/visit/places/glenfinnan-monument/high...

sambeau9• 3 years ago

If you are a Star Wars fan, Cruachan is the location of The Empire’s base in Andor.

As a Scot, who’s done a lot of hillwalking in the past (and been scared witless by airforce jets suddenly appearing over the brim of a hill) it was amazing to see tie-fighters whooshing across the Scottish landscape.

Amorymeltzer• 3 years ago

I think it was someone on the Volts podcast[1], either David Roberts or a guest, who made the point (I'm paraphrasing) that one of the most helpful things a regular person can do is start to think of solar arrays or windmills as beautiful; if building them isn't "climate but eyesore" but rather a "climate and beauty" proposition, they are much more likely to get built.

1: https://www.volts.wtf

Mistletoe• 3 years ago

When I drive through Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, etc. I think windmills are quite beautiful. On the plains they are the only thing to look at and are quite inspiring.

They look like this: https://www.istockphoto.com/photos/oklahoma-wind-energy-turb...

uptownJimmy• 3 years ago

Though not as technologically impressive, there are quite a few rather "simple" little hydroelectric dams tucked back in the Allegheny Mountains of the eastern USA. They are a marvel to see, worth seeking out if you are driving anywhere near them.

Cheoah Dam is on the infamous Tail of the Dragon in TN, and there's a spot where you can pull over and see the whole thing below, it's such an inspiring thing.

uticus2• 3 years ago

So, after all those television-watching Britons go to bed, Dinorwig’s generators are run backwards.
It’s a remarkably efficient process, with about 75% of the energy available for reuse.

Not an (hardware) engineer, so wondering: are turbines typically efficient running both ways? Or would a turbine in this scenario have tradeoffs compared to turbines that are designed for running in one direction only?

The best I can come up with from the comfort of my armchair is that straight gears are typically equally efficient in either rotating direction, but often gears with angled teeth are used when one rotating direction is primary.

adhesive_wombat• 3 years ago

The Dinorwig turbines are (like most hydro plants) Francis turbines. The blade still have an angle. Like a PC case fan, the angle is the same direction whether or not the turbine is "braking" or "pumping". But there very likely are tradeoffs in the turbine design to keep both functions relatively efficient.

There are also what are called ternary sets, which are the generator turbine, the torque converter (a massive clutch) and a pump. A good diagram in here: https://voith.com/corp-en/11_06_Broschuere-Pumped-storage_ei.... These are used at another Welsh pumped storage station: Ffestiniog.

Helical gears (the ones with angled teeth) are used not because one direction is better than the other, but because they have a larger contact area and allow larger forces for a given tooth size (module) and lower vibration because multiple teeth mesh at any time rather than one-by-one. The angle can go either way, and, indeed, can go both ways on one gear (a herringbone gear) to nullify the axial loading.

bee_rider3• 3 years ago

It couldn’t be much worse, right? Otherwise they’d have just installed another turbine facing in the other direction.

uticus2• 3 years ago

I have no idea.

I can easily imagine a turbine being a good chunk of the installation BOM cost and budget constraints saying price recoup in x years that extra parts doesn't balance against. And in this scenario, then no, another turbine facing the other direction would not be an option - though it is only efficient one way.

ttul• 3 years ago

The Kemano generating station in British Columbia was built in the 1950s to supply power to an aluminum smelter. They hollowed out a mountain to drop a river through turbines. It’s an incredible marvel of engineering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemano_Generating_Station

colanderman• 3 years ago

Massachusetts has a pumped storage station in the Berkshires, Bear Swamp. [1] As of a few years ago they had an underground visitor's center with a scale model and lots of info. Not sure whether it's open anymore though.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Swamp_Hydroelectric_Power...

mindracer• 3 years ago

Incredible place, while at Bangor university I did my dissertation on electric mountain and now spend my weekend hiking round Snowdonia. Lovely part of the world

BoxOfRain• 3 years ago

I went to Aberystwyth and often went out into Snowdonia, particularly Bala. It's definitely one of the prettiest parts of the UK!

I really regret not learning Welsh while I lived in such a Welsh-speaking part of Wales.

arethuza• 3 years ago

I have to say that I really like the Welsh names: Eryri for Snowdonia and Yr Wyddfa for Snowdon itself.

frantathefranta• 3 years ago

Czech Republic also has a pumped-storage plant in Dlouhé stráně[0]. It's also in a protected landscape and in my opinion looks amazing [1], especially when you descend from Praděd. It's one of the only large scale industrial projects in Czech Republic that is on a world-class level.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dlouh%C3%A9_str%C3%A1n%C4%9B_H...

[1]http://turystyka.studentnews.pl/img/wo/3/58/Elektrownia-wodn...

Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

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