A Woman’s Story

http://raganwald.posterous.com/a-womans-story

by raganwald • 14 years ago

716 189 14 years ago

raganwald.posterous.com

jerrya• 14 years ago

That's a wonderful story; wonderfully written.

If you don't mind, it reminds me of an Asimov story I've always loved, "Profession". http://www.inf.ufpr.br/renato/profession.html

sycr• 14 years ago

Superb. As a fellow Torontonian, programmer, and just a guy with a mom, this story warms me up. She sounds badass.

zafka• 14 years ago

This is delightful! Thanks for sharing.

eugenejen• 14 years ago

It is a wonderful and inspiring story. It is the best way to honor one's parents. Thanks for sharing it with us.

victorhn• 14 years ago

Damn, I need to put more effort in my dance lessons.

mhartl5• 14 years ago

There were a lot of questions about numbers such as guessing the next number in a sequence. There were some logic puzzles, the kind where you have to figure out that it’s the baker who rides a bicycle and the mechanic who lives in the house with a red door. There were some strange questions where she was given a sketch of a three dimensional figure such as a cube with some missing pieces, and she had to guess which shaped piece would fill the missing space, or guess which of several other pieces was the same thing rotated or reflected.

This is essentially an IQ test, and what they discovered is that Gwen was highly intelligent. They then did the smart thing and judged her based on her demonstrated aptitude rather than on the prevailing prejudices of the day. Indeed, there was an obvious financial incentive to do so, which serves to remind us that unfounded prejudice is unstable in a competitive market for labor.

Nowadays, it is effectively illegal in the U.S. to give IQ tests to job applicants, and in the state of California it is illegal to give a black child an IQ test even when administered by a school psychologist as part of a professional assessment. To their proponents, such laws are mere "progress", but stories like Gwen's show how misguided these rules can be. When there is a clear incentive to discover the truth, objective assessments undermine prejudice rather than promoting it. It's a lesson we would do well to remember.

starwed• 14 years ago

I had a good friend who studied school psychology, and she let me see some of the IQ tests in use.

I think you'd be surprised just how biased some of them are, and how reliant on cultural knowledge.

pleasebehonest• 14 years ago

I would be surprised. Do you have an example?

mhartl5• 14 years ago

I doubt I'd be surprised: my mother is a retired school psychologist, and her trainees used me as a guinea pig for lots of different IQ tests over the years. I've pretty much seen it all.

With respect to the content of IQ tests, I tend to avoid the term "biased", as cultural knowledge is relevant in many real-life contexts, but the best IQ tests focus on exactly the kinds of questions described in the OP: math, logic, shapes, etc.

raganwald6• 14 years ago

For what it’s worth, the test was probably IBM’s Programmer Aptitude Test, I can find references to it going back to 1950 or so.

http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-ProgApti-120-6762-2.html

unreal37• 14 years ago

I took IBM's Programmer Aptitude test in 1991, and it was a memorable test even 20 years later. Not exactly an IQ test, but yes, lots of problem solving questions.

mtpettyp• 14 years ago

I took a similar aptitude test applying to IBM when I graduated in 2000. It was actually a lot of fun.

Great story raganwald, it made my day.

tesseractive• 14 years ago

This story made me smile an awful lot. Thanks for posting it.

It would be even better if women and people from traditionally disadvantaged ethnic groups didn't have to jump through all the extra hoops, but it's nice to see that even the extra hoops didn't stop someone smart and determined enough.

rmc8• 14 years ago

This is essentially an IQ test, and what they discovered was that Gwen was highly intelligent. They then did the smart thing and judged her based on her demonstrated aptitude rather than on the prevailing prejudices of the day

Actually, if you read the whole thing, they didn't believe her "demonstrated aptitude" because of their "prevailing prejedices". She had to fight to get them to see her demonstrated aptitude. Many people would be tired of fighting and would have given up then (or earlier in the process). If the applicant was in the privileged position, they would not have had to fight.

it is illegal in the U.S. to give IQ tests to job applicants

That's because in the past, the IQ tests were not fair, objective and colour-blind, but were set up in such a way as to bias against poorer people (which will be mostly black in the USA). This is easy to do with IQ tests, just ask lots of questions that require good schooling and education (e.g. word questions).

Companies used to use IQ tests, and hence claim not be racist, and then be racist. The ban on IQ tests in job interviews stems from this US Supreme Court case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Company and has hence probably improved equality.

superxor• 14 years ago

great info, thanks

moldbug32• 14 years ago

That's because in the past, the IQ tests were not fair, objective and colour-blind, but were set up in such a way as to bias against poorer people (which will be mostly black in the USA).

Is this a conspiracy theory? It sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory to me. Just sayin'.

Conspiracies do happen. However, when you're trying to persuade me of a conspiracy theory, the burden of proof is high. I expect links - lots of them - and good ones. Try to avoid linking to frauds:

http://blogs.nature.com/news/2011/06/did_stephen_jay_gould_f...

FYI, the most accurate IQ tests available at this time were Raven's matrices:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravens_Progressive_Matrices

I think these have lost some reliability because of a training effect from the general popularity of cognitive brainteasers (probably the cause of the Flynn effect). However, it would be interesting to hear someone explain how they were designed by racists to be racist. (Wikipedia tells me they were originally the Coloured Progressive Matrices, which does sound mighty suspicious...)

kahirsch2• 14 years ago

> That's because in the past, the IQ tests were not fair, objective and colour-blind, but were set up in such a way as to bias against poorer people (which will be mostly black in the USA).

This isn't true at all. They haven't been shown to be biased, merely that blacks score lower. Extensive research has show that IQ tests have equal predictive power for blacks and whites. "Disparate impact" merely means that blacks score lower, not that the tests are biased.

> This is easy to do with IQ tests, just ask lots of questions that require good schooling and education (e.g. word questions).

The black-white gap is as large or larger on tasks that require very little education, e.g. "reverse digit span", which merely requires that you repeat a sequence of numbers in the reverse order from the direction you heard it.

> and has hence probably improved equality.

I've never understood why eliminating one of the few objective measures and making the hiring process entirely subjective was an improvement.

mhartl5• 14 years ago

Actually, if you read the whole thing... She had to fight to get them to see her demonstrated aptitude.

I did read the whole thing. She "fought" by answering more questions demonstrating her aptitude, and her interviewers eventually conceded the point:

They tried various other questions, questions from other tests, questions they used for more advanced candidates. Gwen answered as best she could. The men were amazed. To their credit, once they became convinced that she hadn’t faked her results, they knew she would be a great hire. They recommended her for training as a programmer analyst, the most senior position being filled.

rdl2• 14 years ago

I'm confused. If you read Griggs vs Duke Power Company, it would seem to allow IQ tests if they can be shown to relate to job ability. For a programming job (or, indeed, a lot of jobs), IQ or "g" should be correlated with performance. Is there some other ruling or law which prohibits IQ tests?

Jagat• 14 years ago

Interesting. Only if Justice Burger's son was name Hammond, in short Ham.

bermanoid• 14 years ago

Companies used to use IQ tests, and hence claim not be racist, and then be racist.

Companies still look at education, employment history, and ask questions that are trying to evaluate intellectual skills, interests, and abilities. Most of these will correlate with race pretty strongly, too. The entry-level job market is almost exclusively about checking for "good schooling and education".

What's particularly bad about IQ as compared to other measures of employability? Is it just that it's measuring skills that are non-job-specific, or is it actually more racially biased than other evaluation criteria?

I would naively think that IQ tests would be at least somewhat less sensitive to educational status than, for instance, looking directly at someone's educational background. In that case, would you similarly argue that looking at the "schooling" section of a person's resume is a way to claim not to be racist, and then be racist?

knaveofdiamonds• 14 years ago

The wikipedia article seems to suggest that Diplomas & Degrees fall under this as well: "The facts of this case demonstrate the inadequacy of broad and general testing devices, as well as the infirmity of using diplomas or degrees as fixed measures of capability". Do American companies not ask for Degrees in job descriptions?

d2vid• 14 years ago

>unfounded prejudice is unstable in a competitive market for labor.

Only with perfect information. In the absence of straightforward tests to evaluate job applicant quality, discrimination can unfortunately be a stable and rational strategy (albeit morally wrong and illegal). Because of information asymmetries, the employer can use race as a signal to infer lower quality. By rejecting minority candidates, the average quality of their applicant pool increases.

See page 494 of this paper for which George Akerlof won the Nobel Prize: http://web.usal.es/~emmam/Docencia/Modelizacion/papers/The%2...

Agreed that banning IQ tests may be misguided, as you point out the solution is to add more information to the market.

nerfhammer• 14 years ago

You could figure out an IQ score using multiple regression on questions you are allowed to ask quite accurately.

IQ correlates highly with SAT score and GPA, so you could probably get 85% of the way there with just those two variables.

moldbug32• 14 years ago

Note also that the methods of 60 years ago (a) discovered Gwen's ability, (b) promoted her to a commensurate position, (c) gave a productive citizen a genuine sense of achievement and accomplishment. All in a period which was universally racist and sexist by today's progressive standards.

Now? Gwen's intelligence would probably also be detected, if by less straightforward and reliable methods. Because her African X chromosomes confer not one but two Diversity Points (tm), every institution she came in contact with would have a strong bureaucratic incentive to promote her not only to her actual abilities - but beyond them.

As a result, she'd be very likely to end up placed in a position where rather than leading enterprise IT projects, she was competing with (say) top-notch particle physicists. Lacking (like almost all of us) the mental horsepower to perform at this level, she would constantly feel like a fraud, and her colleagues would constantly suspect her of being a fraud. A suspicion which would be correct, though you couldn't really say it was her fault.

Lesson: be careful about hating on the past. Often the past looks pretty retarded by the standards of the present. Often the converse is the case as well.

barrkel2• 14 years ago

So, in essence, black people today are "likely" incompetent at their jobs because of affirmative action?

That seems to be what you're writing. And it doesn't look good.

astine• 14 years ago

she would constantly feel like a fraud,

Nonsense. Americans today are trained from a young age to have a sense of entitlement. People who are promoted above their ability are quite capable of blaming their inability to perform on prejudice or conspiracy on the part of peers or subordinates.

rmc8• 14 years ago

This the old trope that now-a-days the pendulum has swung too far and women, blacks etc. are now in a privileged position compared to white, straight, anglo men.

Nonsense. And spreads the idea that all black people shouldn't be where they are in the company and are all tricksters who are rubbish at their job.

Anechoic• 14 years ago

in the state of California it is illegal to give a black child an IQ test even when administered by a school psychologist as part of a professional assessment

The issue is that IQ tests were found to be culturally biased against black students and therefore responsibly for placing those students on special-ed tracks that were not appropriate. See: http://www.rcselpa.org/docs/policies/Section%20III%20Evaluat...

This abstract indicates that black students seeking placement into gifted classes are exempted from the ban: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/93/1/31.abstra...

moldbug32• 14 years ago

"Were found." Passive voice. Following the link, we discover that the "finder" is Judge Robert Peckham in 1979:

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/17/us/robert-f-peckham-72-inf...

No offense, but who the fsck is Bob Peckham? And why should anyone in 2012 care what he thought in 1979? BTW, he was in a position to "find" because LBJ made him a judge in 1966. Hear LBJ's enlightened racial perspectives here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1rIDmDWSms

I also like how IQ tests are racist against dumb black kids, but not smart black kids. That's some awful specialized racism you got goin' on there.

jbooth2• 14 years ago

"unfounded prejudice is unstable in a competitive market for labor."

Did you ever see that study in France where they submitted the same exact resumes with Christian names and Arab names? I'll let you guess as to the results.

tomjen34• 14 years ago

Assuming this isn't a trick...

There are two likely scenarios:

1) The employers are racist biggots based on things that don't correlate with job performance. In this case betting against them is a winning strategy.

2) The employers are racist based on observed data from previous hires. Based on that they assume that a person with an Arab name is less able to perform. This may not be fair for the individual, but may be right on average. In this case betting against them is a losing strategy.

Given that the muslim world had all the knowledge the western world used to restore science after the dark ages yet have partially returned to them today, there may be some (tangential) evidence for 2.

And that is really scary.

rmc8• 14 years ago

Similar things are noticable when male names and female names are swapped.

It's evidence that there is still a lot of racism now. What do you think the 1950s were like?!

lambda2• 14 years ago

> Nowadays, it is illegal in the U.S. to give IQ tests to job applicants

Citation needed.

It is legal (at least based on the guidelines provided by the US Department of Labor: http://www.onetcenter.org/dl_files/empTestAsse.pdf) to give people all kinds of tests as long as (a) they do not select against certain protected traditionally disadvantaged classes more than it does for the average applicant or (b) if it does, there is a demonstrable link between the test and ability to perform job functions (so, for instance, a test of strength in a job that involves lots of lifting may select against women, but if strength is highly correlated with job performance, that is OK).

IQ tests are actually a fairly poor test for many jobs, and they can test many things besides just intelligence (for instance, knowledge of the English language or cultural trivia). For a blue-collar job, an IQ test may disadvantage people from a different cultural background or who don't speak English as a native language, without actually being particularly relevant to job performance. One of the cases that has come up many times is in fire departments, in which written tests are given and used to screen out applicants who score below a certain level, when much of the knowledge tested is not actually all that important to the job.

These days, for a programming job, you would give a more specific test of programming ability. At the time, given that there probably weren't a lot of people with training or experience programming who could be hired, an IQ test was probably a reasonably good generic stand in for the aptitude to learn and think critically.

nhebb• 14 years ago

>> Nowadays, it is illegal in the U.S. to give IQ tests to job applicants

>Citation needed.

Griggs v. Duke Power Co.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

"Good intent or absence of discriminatory intent does not redeem employment procedures or testing mechanisms that operate as 'built-in headwinds' for minority groups" - Warren Burger, Chief Justice.

moldbug32• 14 years ago

Imagine trying to apply these hilariously vague "guidelines" as a hiring manager. Then, imagine being sued for applying them wrong. Then, you'll realize why almost no one uses IQ tests for employment screening.

Oddly enough, the main exception I can think of is the NFL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_Test#Use_in_the_NFL_C...

For some reason, nobody sues the NFL for racism. Perhaps they should, though.

mhartl5• 14 years ago

Citation needed.

I've edited it to read "effectively illegal", but the essential point remains. In practice, any company using a straight-up IQ test in job interviews is practically begging to be sued.

roguecoder4• 14 years ago

We still give IQ tests, they are just IQ tests that have a cultural background required. When we ask an applicant to solve a problem we do not expect them to have seen before, we are testing their intelligence, even if we then proceed to expect them to turn this into code. Even then, plenty of the Google interview questions aren't really any different from the test she received. IQ tests have sections that it doesn't sound like that test included, such as analogy tests or word memorization. The test she received was tailored to the logical, computational thinking required for programming, not generically designed to measure "intelligence".

The major difference between then and now is that they were willing to train people with no prior experience.

Even in this story, I note they were screening a very limited pool of applicants. I wonder what would happen if we went into high schools and conducted universal tests of potential: could we find (and possibly hire) large numbers of people with enormous aptitude who had never considered programming?

brazzy• 14 years ago

The interesting thing is that it was probably not designed as a general IQ test, but as a test specifically developed at great expense to test for aptitude at computer programming at a time where absolutely nobody could be expected to have prior interest (let alone experience) in that occupation.

This kind of thing was the normal way of hiring programmers for a while before computer science departments became common at universities.

I learned this from "The Psychology of Computer Programming", originally published 1971. A fascinating read, both as a glimpse at a professional environment completely unimaginable to people accustomed to have their own dev machine, and more so for realizing that a lot of what the author wrote about the problems occurring in that environment are still relevant today.

albertsun• 14 years ago

I was (somewhat) recently given the Wonderlic test as part of the standard interview procedure for a fairly large US company that does a lot of recruiting on college campuses.

yevy• 14 years ago

Good luck in the NFL draft.

vannevar• 14 years ago

[U]nfounded prejudice is unstable in a competitive market for labor.

Ah, if only this were true. This assumes the market is ultimately a meritocracy, and I don't think the evidence supports that assumption. And even if it were, inefficiencies in a market can persist for a very long time. While conscious, ideological racism is less common today, unconscious racism is a virtually universal feature of human behavior, affecting all corners of the job market. Adam Smith's invisible hand isn't going to fix job discrimination.

protomyth• 14 years ago

The test sounds quite a lot like the ASVAB http://www.military.com/ASVAB with some of the old sections that have since been taken out.

lolilives• 14 years ago

At risk of sounding like a sore loser, IQ tests, whether or not they are bias, are not a good indicator of success (in fact, I'd question it's ability to measure "intelligence" or "potential"). Scoring well on an IQ test does not mean you will be successful at your job.

It does not measure your willingness to learn. It does not measure your ability to retain information. It does not measure your reception to criticism. It does not measure your ability to play nice with others. It does not measure your interest in the job. It does not measure your ability to work hard. Among others.

As such, I think giving someone an IQ test at a job interview is a fairly bad idea.

What we should have picked up from Gwen's job interview is that she is willing to learn and work hard given a fair chance.

VigUi7vv8G23• 14 years ago

There are lots of people with high IQs who have ADD type issues.

patricklynch• 14 years ago

At risk of sounding like a sore loser, IQ tests, whether or not they are bias, are not a good indicator of success

I wondered if this was actually true, so I did some digging. I'm not saying you're wrong, but here's a fairly recent (in academic time) overview of the research:

    Murphy, K. R. (2002). Can Conflicting Perspectives on the Role of g in Personnel Selection Be Resolved?. Human Performance, 15(1/2), 173-186

In case you don't want to buy the article, and can't access it via a library:

There's a lot of evidence that "measures of general cognitive ability represent perhaps the best predictors of performance".

But the problem is that "racial differences in cognitive ability test scores are known to be considerably larger than racial differences in measures of job performance."

Murphy concludes that "reliance on cognitive ability measures in selection is likely to lead to more efficiency (i.e., higher average performance) and less equity (e.g., disparities in selection rates across racial and ethnic groups)."

As such, I think giving someone an IQ test at a job interview is a fairly bad idea.

The research I've found suggests otherwise, provided those IQ tests aren't the sole means of making decisions.

VigUi7vv8G23• 14 years ago

There is nothing illegal about giving IQ tests to job applicants. If companies are afraid to do that, it's because they are run by idiots.

lhnn• 14 years ago

Too bad more places don't use skills based tests like the LSAT. If THAT'S not acceptable... I'm sorry if requiring intelligence is racist.

chrismealy• 14 years ago

You're an asshole.

kaeluka• 14 years ago

since an IQ test is measuring AND defining IQ at the same time, it's hard for it to be biased.

IQ is what IQ tests measure. It's all made up.

How is the situation in the U.S. regarding assessment centers? That kind of stuff is allowed?

ylem• 14 years ago

I think that your assertion that "unfounded prejudice is unstable in a competitive market for labor" has a tacit assumption that Gwen faced a competitive market for labor. For example, suppose other businesses will not work with you if you hire someone who is not "acceptable"? Suppose there are legal penalties (supported by members of the powerful group)? Suppose there is a union? My point is that that there are non-market forces which can strongly effect job selection.

alexholehouse• 14 years ago

Captivating as ever, Mr Braithwaite. We all need heroes, and it's especially satisfying when such a hero is also a parent.

davedx• 14 years ago

Really nicely written post, thanks for sharing.

_corbett• 14 years ago

thanks for sharing, a really inspiring story.

lifeisstillgood• 14 years ago

The biggest lesson I see here is how much family solidarity and positive expectations makes in a childs education and life. Without her male tribe, and presumably the female tribe who sent the male tribe along, Reg's mum would have taken a different path.

As a father of a young family with a spotty family past I wanted to focus on things I knew for my children. Perhaps I need to focus more on building that kind of supportive family or pseudo family.

Inspiring stories have a tendancy to inspire things not first thought of.

Thank you

tomjen34• 14 years ago

If you want to raise your child to be successful look at the mars-mellow experiment. Unlike IQ they could come up with a really strong correlation to school performance and later success and it seems (at least partially) to be something the family has some influence over.

Tichy8• 14 years ago

I've read about it recently and found a snippet interesting that said the kids who could wait longer were better at distracting themselves with other stuff. Interesting because the initial thinking would be "discipline", but just teaching your kid discipline might not be the thing that helps them over the marshmallow challenge...

ugh• 14 years ago

Goodbye HN. After repeatedly demonstrating your racism and sexism I just cannot take it anymore. It was nice knowing you.

hazov• 14 years ago

Don't go please, I really appreciate your comments and submissions, although I'm really not active here. You're one of the few users that I always read comments from, raganwald also is one.

There's always a histrionic minority that read about some research and always come here bragging about it (ie, mainly about women, blacks or whatever else), this type of people, although mainly libertarian have a real dislike for the individual that is telling of their real beliefs.

DanBC• 14 years ago

I don't know if it makes any difference to you, but some people (at least me) have been down-voting and flagging the obvious troll in this thread.

It is frustrating that people are keen to feed that troll.

rickmb• 14 years ago

'In Toronto, they could marry, but they couldn’t rent an apartment together as landlords were afraid of “trouble."'

A bit off-topic, but I'm somewhat shocked by this (and my own ignorance). I know about the US, but this was an issue in Canada?

raganwald6• 14 years ago

In theory they could live anywhere they chose. But the gap between theory and practice is narrower in theory than it is in practice.

RyanMcGreal• 14 years ago

My parents came to Toronto from Ireland in the 1960s and also experienced their share of covert racism. It may be hard to imagine that a city that is so cosmopolitan† today was so repressive and ethnocentric just a few decades ago.

† Notwithstanding the Toronto Sun, et al.

nandemo• 14 years ago

Given that it was 60 years ago, I'm not so surprised.

For what is worth, even today the majority of landlords in Japan will not rent to foreigners.

rdl2• 14 years ago

It sounds like this woman was lucky to both be incredibly intelligent in her own right, and to have an excellent family who believed in her and were persuasive to overcome some societal obstacles. And to live in a place with excellent schools and jobs.

I wonder if she would have gone to work for a big company today, or if she would have tried to do a startup.

flocial2• 14 years ago

I immediately knew it was about your mother after the first few paragraphs. Just a bit sad that the debate here quickly degenerated into the political correctness of IQ tests and the very loaded debate of IQ and race.

When you omit skin color and gender from the story, it's an inspiring story of family values triumphing over environment. It would also be reasonable to say that this family probably has a higher level of native intelligence than the average but they also have instilled the value of hard work and perseverance to make the most of their potential so even if they were average, they would get better results given the same potential.

I'm always puzzled at how quickly intelligent debate breaks down among Americans the second gender or race become part of the discussion.

einhverfr• 14 years ago

Fascinating article. I am reminded of things my grandmother said about breaking into the field of physics (and later really helping greatly expand the field of astrophysics). I am also reminded of women complaining about the problems with trying to raise a family and get tenure as science professors today, and conclude that in many ways my grandmother had it easy.

So it sounds like Gwen's experience wasn't unique. It may be that we are actually becoming more rather than less hostile towards women breaking into male-dominated industries.

k00kykelly• 14 years ago

I think we are more hostile to women now than in the past if only because we say we aren't hostile at all and in the past women and minorities knew they needed to fight their way in. If you know you're up for a fight vs just thinking you're evaluating possibilities you're approach is going to be different. Basically, since the younger generation has bought into the idea that sexism/racism is on its way out they are more likely to believe someone when they say - you can't be any good. And why be persistent if maybe you aren't actually any good?

MarkMc• 14 years ago

I love this story because it shows how important it is to be persistent and stand up to authority. Lois had to challenge the principal not once but TWICE, and she was smart enough to get her male relatives involved. Gwen had to fight for her job application TWICE - once to receive the test paper and again to be credited for her answers. This persistence is even more impressive because in each case it involved personal confrontation with someone in authority.

This cultural element of success is underrated. People understand the importance of intelligence, hard word and luck, but don't realise that 'culture' is also vital. Without a family culture of standing up to authority going back three generations, Gwen would not have got that great job. (Malcolm Gladwell devotes much of his book, 'Outliers' to this theme).

donaq• 14 years ago

That was a very inspiring story about your mother, raganwald. Thanks for posting it.

andrewflnr• 14 years ago

Does anyone else think it's weird that the principal seemed to have authority over where she could go to secondary school? Was that standard? Is it still true today?

munyukim2• 14 years ago

IQ is very biased depending on the environment you grew up.if u grew up in zimbabwe or a country with high literacy levels the iq tests will be just too easy.

munyukim2• 14 years ago

The idea that some race have low IQ because of their race shows how low your IQ is and you ability to think outside box.

lucb1e• 14 years ago

There are a lot of stories lately of women not taken for intelligent or made fun of, but I don't see that happen here at all.

Recalling from a previous news item, a women said that men always told her to "lighten up" (assuming that means something along the lines "don't whine, I didn't mean it that seriously", it doesn't translate). Well either I'm one of the bastards, or the culture is different here. It appears here we, men and women, have a lot of... liberties I guess you could say.

Looking at the list of countries allowing gay marriage lately, I was surprised to see the Netherlands listed as one of just a few. I once read a quote, "Mom, why do those two women hold hands? - Because they love each other.". I didn't get why it was upvoted at all (site similar to bash.org, don't remember which though). It seems rather obvious to me, like a girl asks her mother why a man and a woman hold hands. Now that I've learned that gay marriage is not actually that common, I get the point.

Is this true for (black) women in America too? I don't get the impression the USA is 'behind', but reading these stories you'd almost think it is. Of course, this particular one is a story from many years ago and either way a good read. But still, it is one of many last days which make it to the front page, covering pretty much the same subject.

I'm not saying people should stop posting or upvoting them, nor do I intend to offend anyone or any country. I'm just wondering aloud what the motivation is behind posting and upvoting these stories.

raganwald6• 14 years ago

Perhaps this story is also about a person who overcame many obstacles to do somethng nobody thought was possible. If that doesn't belong on HN, what does?

hef198982• 14 years ago

The most sencere respect for what Gwen did and achieved. I can't tell more and only draw my hat (bad translation of a german saying, please don't hold it against me!).

patrickyeon• 14 years ago

OT, but it sounds like you're trying to say "I've got nothing more to say, I just tip my hat [to her]." As in, no more words required, just a show of respect.

hef198982• 14 years ago

Yep, that's it! Hope that's not considered spam.

gadders• 14 years ago

The comments seem to have degenerated into a debate about the merits of IQ tests, but I wanted to say thank you for a beautiful and uplifting story.

hardboiled• 14 years ago

To moms. To women. Thanks Raganwald.

A Woman’s Story

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