Ender's Game Review

by markessien • 18 years ago

46 99 18 years ago

nihilocrat2• 18 years ago

If the book is porn, and the book is full of children, wouldn't that make it... child porn?

I don't entirely agree with the argument. The Battle School is supposedly full of overachievers, people who probably "excel at games" compared to their peers back home. They are all used to being top dog, so when you put a bunch of top dogs inside a competitive environment (or really just any long-term living/working situation), things get nasty.

stcredzero3• 18 years ago

Many of the things said about Ender's Game could also be said about Harry Potter:

"...the plot is contrived to make sure that other characters always hate Ender. There is no obvious reason for him to be so despised, at every turn, by his peers: he's a confident guy who excels at games, the kind of guy who would typically be well-liked at school."

"Geek wish-fulfillment is not the only fetish on display in Ender's Game: the other is self-pity, the lonely self-pity of the truly gifted and persecuted."

For the record, I like Ender's Game and the Harry Potter books. (But wouldn't claim they were anything more than an enjoyable read.)

markessien3• 18 years ago

On an unrelated note, someone should create some type of 'record' thing on the net, where we can actually record all the things that people say 'for the record'.

tptacek• 18 years ago

I don't get the self-pity thing off Potter, and I don't get the sense that the plot in the Potter books has been contorted to align most of the other characters in the book after him; there's a coherent set of adversaries for Potter, with understandable motives. It's harder to make that argument about all of Ender's adversaries.

nihilocrat2• 18 years ago

I like Ender's Game as well (haven't read Harry Potter), but in retrospect, the characters are a little cartoony and unbelievable compared to what I've seen in "real" literature. We like to read about unreal characters, true, but it makes it hard for the reader to relate to these characters or to the plot they are going through.

I'll say how I've always felt about sci-fi: the universe and the concepts in play are more important than any of the traditional literary mechanisms such as plot, character development, etc.. I feel that this guy is just comparing the character of Ender on the level of the "real" literature I mention above. By those standards, characters like King Arthur or Siegfried are ridiculous charicatures, devoid of any true humanity.

unalone24• 18 years ago

I think Harry Potter is on a level above Ender's Game in terms of ambition. Rowling does some pretty impressive things in her novels.

But in both cases, it helps to look at why the authors make their heroes despised. Card does it to isolate Ender, to force him into being brilliant when he really doesn't want to be a hero. That's the theme that underscores the original four books.

In Harry Potter, it's done because Rowling marks Harry as this object of perfect good. Not as a perfect character, mind you, but a character that serves as a metric against which the other characters are judged. And so Harry finds himself disliked by certain other groups throughout the series, and it's almost always used to illustrate a certain vicious aspect of personality (be it class/race warfare, or glory-seeking, or bureaucracy).

rcoder• 18 years ago

My response to Ender's Game upon a re-reading a few months ago, while not as strong as this reviewer's, were certainly not favorable.

I am a much more sociable, confident person than I was at age 11 or 12, when I first read Card's writing. Even without knowing as much as I do now about his particularly distateful (to me, at least) political and social views, it was pretty apparent that Card and I disagree on many critical ethical issues: eugenics, whether the "ends justify the means," and when (if ever) armed conflict is a noble activity.

However, the Ender's Game series (like Dune, Wizard of Earthsea, and other young adult Sci-Fi and fantasy I read as a child) still served a valuable role for me in that earlier, more difficult time in my social development. By providing role models that were not, in fact, the typical action hero, athlete, or rich businessman, they showed me a glimpse of a world (however unrealistic and disfunctional) in which a geek could get ahead.

For that (and for teaching the ever-valuable lesson of questioning the motives of even respected authority figures) I still owe a debt of gratitude to Mr. Card and his menagerie of characters.

markessien3• 18 years ago

I just read his political views, and I guess this is why I never read about authors before reading their books. It's hard not to let personal differences in social views colour your perception of their work - which could be excellent when read without bias.

A book should be irrelevant of its author.

davo11• 18 years ago

agree totally, likewise for music, I try hard to avoid any knowledge about artists I like life, it invariably colors there work in my mind.

I don't think it's possible to create something that is different without being a little unusual. Could anyone work a nine to five job be a good stable citizen and then come home and write a stephen king novel, or an enders game?

Phillip K Dick is an example that always springs to mind, he wrote so many books, and was diagnosed with mental disease. I have read a quote that aliens dictated his books to him, can't track it down now. Where would Hollywood be without an endless supply of phillip K. Dick novels?

Robin Williams has been diagnosed manic depressive, when he take his medication he is no longer funny he has said.

The idea that creativity is neatly pigeon holed without spilling over into the rest of your life, for good or bad, is just as nonensical as that review (I always thought the book was a standard teenage angst sort of thing).

Retric• 18 years ago

Try rereading stranger in a strange land or any other book you loved as a teen and it's not going to stand up to what you remember.

Anyway, the amount of open hostility displayed by children shapes how you view the world. As an adult you rarely feel you are surrounded by monsters, but most young people feel this way. I think this is why overt violence is so appealing to young people they live in it's shadow everyday and it becomes what you know.

unalone24• 18 years ago

I don't know about any teen book. I still love Diana Wynne Jones books for the same reason I loved it when I first read it: because of her ability to weave a very dense-but-accessible story out of a fascinating concept. I also still love Asimov and Herbert.

It depends on the sort of read it is. Ender's Game is a book that has an emotional impact on you when you first read it, but not a very intellectual one. Stories that base their punches on emotions without firm concepts don't hold up as well.

sharkfish• 18 years ago

I can't stand Card's political views. He hates gays and has expressed violent attitudes toward gays.

Who knows, maybe his writing is a form of repressed homosexual relief for him.

I still enjoyed Ender's Game very much, however. My problem with the review is that it can apply to any fiction that withholds gratification or attempts suspense and has a "super hero" type character. I think of Ender as a kind of super hero, in fact. Just one with geek qualities.

Do we then, call comic books a form of pornography?

pavel_lishin• 18 years ago

I strongly disagree with his opinions, too; I went to see him speak, and it was a great presentation until the end where he somehow spiralled off into a tirade about gay marriage killing society.

But I don't care. He writes (mostly) great books and he'll keep getting my money so long as he keeps it up.

unalone24• 18 years ago

I respect that he can write a book without selling dogma. I love Enchantment and Pastwatch, even if the Ender series has faded with time.

run4yourlives• 18 years ago

Why is this comment downmodded? This isn't digg people.

Eliezer• 18 years ago

Can't back plover.net on this one. I don't think he understood what Orson Scott Card was trying to do. He was trying to make the reader cry. Not feel good about themselves, cry. This is a really difficult thing to do, and you can read Card's nonfiction books on fiction writing to find out some of the techniques involved. There are very few authors who can take a consistent shot at making the reader cry actual tears, and (the early) Orson Scott Card is one of them.

This reads like someone who made an incorrect guess at what the novel was about, and was offended by that guess.

elai• 18 years ago

I havent read ender's game. But there is some art critic wishy washiness that I just can't put a finger on when I read this and few of his other pages.

astine4• 18 years ago

The author explains it very well in an essay 'an unbalanced and negative page':

And then it's easier to be negative. The language seems primed for complaints. Anagram programs always turn up ten times as many insulting phrases as compliments: there are simply more words with negative connotations. This is probably because when people enjoy something, they want to experience it rather than natter about it. But whatever the reason, the result is that it takes a lot less effort to be snarky. Praise, unless you put a lot of work into it, tends to get dull and a bit samey.

Praise also makes you vulnerable. Negativity is like a shield: you can keep throwing barbs at things without ever exposing yourself to attack. But praise is different. It's difficult to like something a lot without investing some of yourself in it, and without it becoming part of you. To praise something in writing is to reveal some of yourself, and face the possibility that there isn't much to reveal. And to praise something in public is to risk the ridicule of people with snarky websites.

In other words, he spends his time criticising people because he's afraid of criticism himself.

pg2• 18 years ago

This is a crock. The device of having a despised outsider turn out to be a hero is extremely common not just in sci-fi but in heroic tales generally. And the argument about each chapter being merely a build up to a catharsis could be made about pretty much any thriller.

DocSavage2• 18 years ago

"There is no dramatic tension or genuine excitement about any of these encounters" .. yet he also says "The disturbing thing about Ender's Game is that Card is a good craftsman of prose; he makes the pages turn, he's an effective manipulator." How do you get readers rushing to turn pages when there's no dramatic tension or involvement with what the reviewer declares "blank" characters?

The reviewer neglects the structure of the academy breeding competition, instead assuming that everybody hated Ender just because he was better than them. The school is a crucible and it's not just Ender that's under pressure. I could go on here, but it seems like the reviewer's distaste for the author's viewpoints has heavily influenced how he read the book and interpreted the themes.

unalone24• 18 years ago

Yeah. I always thought that the best part about Ender's Game was how it worked as a critique on academics. Getting older, the "who's to blame for genocide" bit got old, but the part that remained strong was the sequence about how the different groups approach academics and the game, and how kids brought up in high-competitive schools become very obsessive, rarely for any good reason.

Alex391713• 18 years ago

The secret of selling a million copies in any genre is having your main character suddenly find out that there's something that makes him different from everyone else. And the English language already has an excellent word to describe books/movies like this: masturbatory.

unalone24• 18 years ago

That's also the secret to getting an interesting plot easily.

It comes up so often in fiction because it's interesting. And it's possible to get things more complex and keep it interesting, but it's much, much harder. Even Ulysses, which is famous for being about an ordinary person going about an ordinary day, has the main character a Jew in Ireland - which is rare - and adds Dedalus, who is too smart for his own good.

Difference equals interest. That's not masturbatory. That's fact.

gruseom2• 18 years ago

I like some of these stories, and I think you're being a little unfair. The pattern of the child who turns out to be magic, or the loner who becomes a hero: these are archetypes that touch something deep in human beings. Sure there can be an egotistical - I'm using a less vivid word than yours :) - element to how we identify with heroes. But I think on a deeper level, it is a universal experience and not an egotistical one.

Take for example The Matrix - I really liked that movie when it came out, and part of what I enjoyed was the story of Neo turning out to be The One, and I certainly identified with that character. But so did everybody else who enjoyed the movie. If it were pure egotism, the enjoyment wouldn't be shared. Instead, you'd get arguments like "I'm Neo!" -- "No you're not, I am!" That doesn't happen with the best of these stories.

bena• 18 years ago

This is the second thing I've read from this site that's all "Blah blah blah. I'm so clever. Blah blah blah." Except it takes him a lot longer than three sentences to convey this. Am I the only one who finds this guy to be a pompous faux-intellectual who confuses length with depth.

alex_c2• 18 years ago

>It's a wonderfully guilt-free massacre, mass murder with a clear conscience

I take it the reviewer didn't read the sequels?

spoondan• 18 years ago

He's reviewing Ender's Game; he has evaluated its message and merits on its own. It'd be better to disagree with his opinions than to complain he doesn't cover material he hasn't set out to review.

Anyway, why would you expect the reviewer to read the sequels if he so dislikes Ender's Game?

alex_c2• 18 years ago

That's an absolutely valid point. The reason I went ahead and posted my comment anyway was because it's the most obvious example of how the reviewer and I interpreted the book differently. Granted, I read it years ago, and the goal was entertainment rather than literary criticism, but I saw plenty of guilt: it all simply landed on Ender's shoulders when he finds out what he had done, and fit in with the guilt for his previous acts. I think it's possible to read Ender's Game with either interpretation in mind (guilt vs. no guilt), but my interpretation seems to be more supported by the sequels.

isopropyl• 18 years ago

He needs (and you (if you haven't) need) to read Ender's Shadow. Bean's POV offers lots of important clarification and insight to Card's interpretation of "love thy enemy." It's a much more interesting read but is just as enjoyable as Ender's Game, but don't read one without reading the other (IF you intend to write an essay such as this, rather than enjoy the story at face value).

jimbokun2• 18 years ago

Ugh. My kingdom for a submission down arrow.

Citing Jesus and mocking Christianity as part of reviewing Ender's game totally jumps the shark. This is such an obvious troll, I am utterly disappointed that Hacker News has collectively up-modded this close to the top of the front page (as I write this). I thought this community was better than this.

markessien3• 18 years ago

I think the article is valid discussion point. Getting rid of things you disagree with, or you feel are wrong is like burning books because they do not agree with your ideology.

There are very few movies with 100% positive ratings, because people always disagree. If a person disagrees eloquently, then he should be given forum to make his point. Diversity of opinion is the engine for progress.

unalone24• 18 years ago

It's eloquent, yes, but it ignores a lot of aspects about the book. And while I like that it's been posted, I agree that it's not a very factual response, and I'm exercising my right to disagree with it.

jimbokun2• 18 years ago

"I think the article is valid discussion point. Getting rid of things you disagree with, or you feel are wrong is like burning books because they do not agree with your ideology."

I'm sure that an eloquent, thoughtful critique of Ender's Game worthy of discussion can be written.

This is not it.

pg2• 18 years ago

I am utterly disappointed that Hacker News has collectively up-modded this close to the top of the front page (as I write this). I thought this community was better than this.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. I considered killing it, but it didn't seem quite deliberately dishonest enough.

I just took "it's porn" out of the title. I suspect that's why this got so much attention.

unalone24• 18 years ago

That was definitely part of it. But it's also that Ender's Game is such a widespread book, and that its showing up here was slightly unexpected and unprompted. The fact that it appeared was curious in and of itself.

chaostheory2• 18 years ago

since we're on the subject - what do you guys think of the essay 'Ender and Hitler: Sympathy for the Superman'?

http://peachfront.diaryland.com/enderhitlte.html

Summary: Ender's Game is an apologia for Hitler.

icky4• 18 years ago

[SPOILERS and SHAKY HYPOTHESIS below]

I think that if you look at the claims in the essay through the lens of Card's Mormonism, a very different picture emerges.

Ender's celibacy until marriage is [ostensibly] normal in Mormon society, and the age at which he married then is just a number, which falls within the realm of coincidence.

You'll note that Ender killed the Buggers without knowledge of what he was doing, then became wracked with guilt.

This hints at Enders Game as a defense not for Hitler, but for Brigham Young, and his (disputed-whether-he-knew) role in the Mountain Meadows massacre.

This would explain Card's unseemly rage at the author of the Ender-as-Hitler essay: she had effectively Godwin'd a revered patriarch of Card's religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

chaostheory2• 18 years ago

given what happened to the essay's author at a convention, your explanation makes the most sense. I just still find it strange that the sequel had Ender going to a Brazilian planet...

mattmaroon3• 18 years ago

I lost what respect I had for Orson Scott Card when he wrote this article http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ideas/081017light.html back in October. I won't bother running through all of the blatantly false statements in there, but the most obvious would be:

"Even though President Bush and his administration never said that Iraq sponsored or was linked to 9/11, you could not stand the fact that Americans had that misapprehension - so you pounded us with the fact that there was no such link. (Along the way, you created the false impression that Bush had lied to them and said that there was a connection.) "

When a simple Google search turns up this direct quote from Bush himself given June 17, 2004:

"The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda: because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda."

I hate to see celebrity writers aiding and abetting Fox News and their ridiculous tactic of playing the ref by decrying media bias. Even though I thought Ender's game was decent, Ender's shadow mediocre, and couldn't get through the next, I still had some respect for the guy, which is now gone.

DanielBMarkham2• 18 years ago

I hate to see celebrity writers aiding and abetting Fox News and their ridiculous tactic of playing the ref by decrying media bias

Media bias is decried everywhere. Read any Howard Kurtz lately? Watch CNN's "Reliable Sources?" It's called media commentary. It's all about identifying and commenting on media bias, tactics, business models, etc. Work at the meta-level.

Personally I don't have respect or lack of respect for Card. I read his books and found them, well, mundane but better than the average sci-fi. His political opinions don't come into the discussion -- unless we're judging the man instead of his work. I believe the thread is about the work. If it were along the lines of "Orson Scott Card: Moron or not?" it should be flagged.

Ideas are not people. Bad people can have good ideas, and vice-versa.

mattmaroon3• 18 years ago

The idea that the media is biased in general is decried only by conservatives. I've yet to hear one person claim that there's a conservative bias.

Conservative TV and radio networks use it to play the ref. They get a segment of the population to watch them that way. Orson Scott Card should be smart enough to know better.

I wouldn't even mind if he pointed out factually accurate examples (though that's still mistaking anecdotes for data) but his article is riddled with blatant inaccuracies that can be disproven on YouTube in a few minutes.

brandnewlow2• 18 years ago

His basic argument holds truth though, there are pornographic elements in most created works, i.e. elements created strictly to gratify or comfort the reader in some specific way. This is why we instinctually pigeonhole and look down upon genre fiction writers, because their primary task is to comfort the reader, not to challenge or engage in a dialogue with him.

Let's break down the different genre's and see what belief systems they seek to gratify. Feel free to add your own:

1. Detective Novels - Sherlock Holmes is fun to read because his adventures take place in an environment in which the details of a man's appearance, speech etc. can predict with 100% accuracy his psychology and plans.

2. Horror novels - Many horror novels play on our desire to believe that we can overcome "the other" through some human act. In Dracula, for instance, the vampire is defeated by meticulous planning, organizing, and above all else, the sharing of information. Modernity vanquishes the old world scourge. For people who get off on organization, that novel tweaks your pleasure sensors left and right.

3. Science Fiction - Depends a bit on the sub-genre. Hard science fiction offers scenarios in which numbers and logic reign supreme. Softer science fiction, a la Star Wars, is often really just fantasy in another cloak...

4. Fantasy - Fantasy gratifies our desire to believe that those passing, semi-eccentric thoughts we all harbor from time to time, are really the laws that govern the world. Wish-fulfillment narratives are really just the exploration of ideas that pop into everyone's head from time to time.

To put it in hacker terms, works of genre fiction create systems where the requirements never change. Much like video games, the rules are set in place early on and strictly adhered to. This is immensely comforting. On a personal note: it's also fairly disturbing. For about 20 years now, my mother has more or less read a book a day or so, from cover to cover. She has a full-time job (teacher) and was always around to do mom stuff when I was a kid, but she spends her nights up reading. One could argue that this is awesome, but it's not. Because she's reading genre fiction.

She gets the latest romance novels every Wednesday and has them finished by Sunday. That leaves her two days to work through other genres. A few years back, her Monday-Tuesday books were gay Vampire romance novels. Before that it was detective novels. Every time I visit, it's some new sub-genre I've never heard of.

We're all entitled to our quirks and interests, but I would argue that what she is doing is self-medicative and produces no other value. She never has anything to SAY about these books. They prompt no insights into life. She never wants to talk about them with us when we try to engage.

And I think that's what this article is getting at, tracing out this masturbatory impulse in an oft-praised work. We need to be aware of this stuff so we can appreciate and steer clear of it when we don't want it.

Now, I would argue that the best genre fiction can and often does create social good beyond medicating sad, frustrated people. The Harry Potter books created community and sparked copycats. That's more or less good. The Star Wars films stoked a lot of imaginative response and prompted a lot of people to make interesting films. That's good too. The trouble is the books that are meant to be held in.

aaronblohowiak3• 18 years ago

I'd upmod you a hundred times if I could, even spending my karma to do so.

You might be interested in the concept of Monomyth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

Further, the writings of Jung (and his intellectual descendants) on Archetypes might interest you. A further offshoot on this front is the Masculine Psychology movement of the latter half of the 20th century.

If we view psychology as the study of a set of stories and the way that people relate to stories, it is much more useful than dismissing it because of its (often) poor or nonexistant scientific rigor.

DocSavage2• 18 years ago

"Genre fiction writers... primary task is to comfort the reader, not to challenge or engage in dialogue with him"

By "comfort" if you mean "entertain," then yes, all (not just genre) fiction writers should tell a good story if you want a wide audience.

The attempt to boil down entire genres to a single fetish (belief system) gratification is extremely dismissive. Sure, you can find examples of formulaic, bad prose in genres, just as you can find excellent writing. A number of authors try to get their work classified away from science-fiction or another genre just because of this stigma.

The linked article claims Ender's game is "porn" but his definition of porn is not like mine. Porn has little narrative structure. There's almost no story. There's no 3D characterization or character development. There's no conflict.

If the definition of porn becomes any work with elements that gratify a reader's particular needs, then which successful works aren't porn? The most erudite, soul-searching work gratifies a philosophical fetish.

And if your definition of value is tied to creating insight or facilitating discussion, then that's a clear difference between a work like Ender's Game and the serial romance books your mom reads.

brandnewlow2• 18 years ago

I don't mean to dismiss. I love genre fiction myself. All the works listed above in my post are things i've enjoyed and mulled over. Eventually though, I started getting curious about 'why' I enjoyed them so much. When I read Dracula, objectively a poorly-written novel by someone who's other works were hardly well-considered, why did I like it so much? What was it about this novel that made me enjoy it so much while others in my literature class thought it was terrible?

I agree that calling Ender's Game "porn" doesn't work, and it doesn't work because he's really arguing that it has pornographic elements in it, not that the entire work qualifies as "porn." I disagree with his central thesis but see some truth and value in the argument he's making. Ender's Game does and has provoked a lot of great discussion, in the original poster's POV though, those elements were drowned out by the more legalistic, fetishistic elements.

And I do draw a distinction between being provoked to thought and exploration vs. being provoked to feel warm and numb inside. We should dismiss neither, but recognize them for what they are. Sometimes you want and need to watch Raiders of the Lost Ark. Sometimes you reach for Trois Coleurs: Blue. Sometimes you build a new killer flash game to run on Kongregate. Sometimes you build a robotic arm. Both serve solid, tangible purposes, but I think its important to recognize what those are and how they're doing it.

Last point: Jurassic Park is a book I loved dearly as a kid and I'd place it in a similar boat, some elements that provoke discussion, some elements that are there to get the reader off. Both have a place.

GavinB• 18 years ago

Let this serve as a reminder to us all not to be haters. Because every time you take a long, refreshing draught of haterade, you become a little more like this guy.

Yes, even when you're right.

webwright2• 18 years ago

Linkbait formula: Take something that web geeks like (like Ender's Game). Then, publicly kick it in the nuts on your blog. Watch the traffic roll in.

ksvs• 18 years ago

Then, publicly kick it in the nuts on your blog

...by comparing it to porn. That was the brilliant part.

sfk2• 18 years ago

This is utterly unfair. There aren't any ads on that site and the author does not market himself or his site at all.

webwright2• 18 years ago

I disagree.

Is money the only motivation? A ton of people blog for the attention, to feel smart, SEO for future endeavors etc. Forums, blogs, and blog comments are full of people tossing out trollish or evocative statements for all sorts of motivations. This post exists for the same reason that any trollish forum post exists.

beta• 18 years ago

Since when has masterbation been a considered a bad thing?

In all honesty, I speculate nearly all 'bad' and 'good' goals undertaken by individuals are for at some level their own gratification, satisfaction, medication, pleasure, whatever the semantic of choice.

There isn't anything wrong with that. From deliberately catching a glance of a beautiful woman across the street to tirelessly working at finding a way to end world hunger, it's done at some level for your own satisfaction. It's what drives the world.

To those who feel so threatened by the idea of associating whatever endeavor with pleasure as a motivation, calm down. It's part of what makes us human. It certainly doesn't strip an accomplishment of it's value.

ciscoriordan• 18 years ago

The only good thing about this review is that it reminds me that I don't remember the book very well, and should read it again.

Check out this guy's other reviews -- he whines about everything. Just another Internet troll.

jmatt• 18 years ago

So I started reading this article and immediately suspected something was wrong. It won Nebula and Hugo award and most scifi types at least enjoyed it. In fact I knew a few people who started reading science fiction because of Ender's Game. When I first read it (circa 1986) no one that I knew cared what his personal/political beliefs were. The book stands alone and could not have been too persuasive on its readers; I know others who read it in the same time period and their beliefs are quite diverse.

So I could understand it not being this reviewer's type of book. But to wax on like this takes a special type of person, someone who just loves to hate on (popular) things. I decided to check out a few other reviews this guy has written. This comes from the same guy who hated the lord of the ring movies...

http://plover.net/~bonds/lotrfilms.html

and the matrix...

http://plover.net/~bonds/matrix.html

So who cares what he has to say about Ender's Game. His review adds little value here where there is, presumably, a majority who enjoy scifi and fantasy. His opinion is obscure at best and predictable based on his previous reviews.

So there you go, I've reviewed him the same way he's reviewed ender's game... Minimal thought about the material mishmashed with my opinion of the author.

TrevorJ• 18 years ago

I read this review as somewhat satirical, but I could be mistaken.

Ender's Game Review

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