Why I decided to skip college, and how I've fared (10 months later)

http://joshmlewis.posterous.com/why-i-decided-to-skip-college-and-how-ive-far

by joshmlewis • 14 years ago

127 116 14 years ago

joshmlewis.posterous.com

This is a really brave thing you're doing, I'm glad it seems to be working out for you.

A nitpick on spelling/word usage (sorry): I think instead of "in times of desparity" you want "in times of desperation". "In times of disparity" would be applied to something like a country.

joshmlewis15• 14 years ago

Fixed. Thanks. Not the best writer in the world.

shashashasha3• 14 years ago

No worries. I'm excited for you to continue blogging about your progress, and you'll get better at writing along the way. Just don't want people missing the importance of what you've accomplished because of a few typos.

zht• 14 years ago

it's still "desparation"

you should change it to desperation

evoxed3• 14 years ago

As long as you stay busy, that's the key. I left high school after one year to do my own thing and since then have had some pretty extraordinary experiences. I recently left the institution where I had a full scholarship and will instead be getting my second degree (first bachelor's) within a year somewhere else– because the other things paused. I wish you the best of luck, but make sure that you don't let anything that happens close your mind. To stay on top of your game you have to be able to see when the game changes. If work ever dries up and you find yourself idling, don't be afraid to go back and do some of the things you didn't need before.

This message has been brought to you by Clonazepam and too much late-night circuit analysis... (I'll save the regret for not waiting to write later until the morning)

joshmlewis15• 14 years ago

I definitely think that's a key point in all of this. And really I'm just 18. That's the really, really cool part. If I totally :facepalm: fail in two years, I can say, "Ok, college might not be a bad idea."

evoxed3• 14 years ago

Exactly. I just turned 20, could've gotten my bachelor's two years ago, and yet I still don't have one. And so what? I've spent every day loving the experience of whatever it is I'm doing, I don't even regret exploring all the dead ends. It's all part of life, even when your path twists more than others'.

Edit: I should credit my fiancée who is halfway through the last program that I left– she has much more patience for all of things that I would only see as a poor use of time (i.e. taking introductory classes in which I already have 20+ credits at junior or senior level). Otherwise perhaps I'd be a bitter sap, which is probably how I come off anyway after a couple days of no sleep. Dead ends for me are not for her and vice versa, so it's all rather interesting.

iamchrisle• 14 years ago

Unfortunately, you won't have the time to go back in 2-3 years. You'll be too busy trying to pay your bills, keep the apartment, deal with your psycho girlfriend, have some semblance of a social life, and deal with that stupid used car that needs to pass inspection. Oh, and dont forget about that crap client who won't leave you alone. Good luck dude.

evoxed3• 14 years ago

Also, a little note to anyone who has decided to either skip or take a break from school at any point in their career:

There's no shame in saying that you weren't ready for it then. It doesn't mean you couldn't handle the material, or the environment, or anything... it just means that you had some potential which, at that time, was not going to be fulfilled by doing whatever. 5, 10, 20 years later, not only will your potential have grown but so too the chance of doing so much more with it. I'm still younger than all of my classmates but I feel like I have the same approach as an old man– I came to learn, with the added benefit that all the work I do goes deeper with my additional experiences. So err, "Keep on rockin' in the free world..." but don't be afraid to take home the royalties after you're famous.

HiroshiSan• 14 years ago

Hey man, great job. Wonderful blog post, the only thing that bothered me about it was this part "I chose not to have much of a social life. That's because I want to go somewhere." As if to say that people with a social life aren't successful. Aside from that, great blog post, and good luck on the journey.

Can you explain the open government intern a bit more in detail? How was it that you were able to acquire it...I too would like to do something similar and I have felt an inclination to abandon post-secondary education.

shashashasha3• 14 years ago

Not the OP, but the Code for America program is really amazing if you want to get in to open government work. I know several people who've gone through it and they've all ended up in great spots doing work they care about. The founder, Jen Pahlka, recently gave a TED talk on the work she's been doing: http://www.ted.com/talks/jennifer_pahlka_coding_a_better_gov...

http://codeforamerica.org/

joshmlewis15• 14 years ago

Haha, I'm an introvert. I think if I had any more friends than I have now, it would take away from what I do. And hey, if you like having friends, you can figure a way to fit it in, but I like keeping things lean and simple.

The open government internship was actually found on HN through a link to a networking, chat roulette of sorts. It had something to do with Brazen Careerist and DCTech? (maybe, I forgot the exact name.) I would higly recommend finding somewhere where you can stay for a few months and have a solid experience and reference.

shad0wfax2• 14 years ago

It is an impressive list of items that you have been able to do. It is very practical and something a college/univ education might not provide.

At some point in life (there is still a lot of time for you) you will have to make a decision, whether there is some benefit going to school to improve your theoretical knowledge. The hard part is knowing if that is useful for you :-). It is becoming irrelevant each day with initiatives like coursera/udacity.

Wishing you all the best for a great future ahead.

joshmlewis15• 14 years ago

Yeah, I have heard this. I come from a more design background, I don't plan to get into hardcore programming too deep. As someone said, without a CS degree you probably can't design the next Javascript, or up-and-coming language. This is probably true, but not something I plan on doing anyway.

shad0wfax2• 14 years ago

True, if you intend to work on creating applications (rather than say systems programming), it makes more sense to hone skills with how to work with frameworks/tools.

Obviously having the gift to design as well will put in you in an elite league :).

aqrashik• 14 years ago

College may not be required if you're sufficiently self motivated, however I still feel that for the majority of ordinary people, college still makes sense.

If you leave aside a field like tech, which has ample resources for those willing to teach themselves, this is simply not true for most other skilled professions

Regulations aside, would you go to a doctor who was self-taught or live in buildings built by architects and engineers who didn't go to college?

Atleast for the STEM fields, I still feel that college should be an absolute requirement.

Of course this is not meant to criticize your choice, just feel that the whole 'brilliant people don't need college' thing is taken a bit too far.

joshmlewis15• 14 years ago

I wouldn't consider myself brilliant by any means. I just had an early start and really fell in love with the web. The awe of putting something I made online when I was 12 really sparked something that caused what you see in me today.

I agree college is a necessity for some, and it really is a stepping stone for people who don't know what they want to do. Not everyone is as fortunate as me and get to know what they're doing years before they graduate. I'm so thankful for this.

kappaknight• 14 years ago

While I'm in the boat of not needing to graduate college, I do feel that going to a good school is important. It's hard to make it on your own and meeting equally motivated, and inspired roommates would do well for someone with an entrepreneurial mind. Most of the stories about top CEO's starting their dorm businesses instead of graduating college still went to great schools.

Of course, if you have plans to work for yourself, then college may or may not be an issue. If however, you only plan on working for others, at some point you WILL hear about positions that are only open to people with a college degree. I have a friend who stepped out of school early to get a job, now he's working nights and weekends to finish his degree so he can advance within his own company, and field.

Again, if you plan on being judged by others, you need to play the game and get the proper badges.

pinchyfingers• 14 years ago

Right on Josh! Engaging in the real world is a bit scarier that sticking with your peers and remaining institutionalized, but your growing the most vital asset any of us can have in this world... BALLS!

I hope you continue to kick ass and maybe inspire some more people to pursue a similar route.

commanderkeen08• 14 years ago

GREAT decision. I just recently graduated with a BA in English. I loved it, but it was ultimately a waste of time. My biggest qualm with higher education is that there's not enough DOING encouraged.

Having said that, two months after graduated in English, I taught myself web development and UI and now work at an SEO agency.

bitserf• 14 years ago

This was me in 1998.

I ended up halfway around the world, in New Zealand. Getting paid well, enjoying what I'm working on.

You won't really have more free time than you have now, your life starts filling up with things that demand your time. So studying will be harder to pick up later.

But doable, I'm studying on the side, inching my way to finishing my degree.

I don't earn less than college graduated peers.

And in the job, if anything, I'm probably more inclined to delve deeper and get a more in-depth understanding because I'm curious as hell and have always had a bit of an inclination to try prove myself vs those who had the benefit of a college education :)

I just lucked out that I was able to get a job doing this, and that programming as a career is so amenable to self-learning, otherwise I'd probably have ended up a lawyer or accountant, or some other job requiring degree study.

Good luck!

joshmlewis15• 14 years ago

For clarifications sake, I consider myself a front-end dev and user experience guy. I like to stay between full fledge designing and full fledge programming. I understand the difference between fairy tell design, and what stuff can actually do. I think that's an important mindset to have.

If you plan on doing hardcore engineering, college is the way to go. I would also say if you are fortunate enough to get into a really good school, and get good scholarships, go for it if you feel it's what you want to do.

disgruntledphd2• 14 years ago

You know, there's an awful lot of psychology in interface design. Its not taught in very many places either. It might be worth investigating if you could start learning this kind of stuff on a distance basis so that you could future-proof yourselves to a certain degree.

joshmlewis15• 14 years ago

Yeah, I have looked into some new-agey type of degrees for interaction. I'm very intrigued by such.

jacalata• 14 years ago

I don't actually see any reasoning for why you haven't gone to college. It sounds like you're doing cool stuff, but I hope you're not trying to argue 'at 18, without college, I'm doing cool stuff, therefore college is unnecessary for people'. Have you heard of the 'gap year' idea, which is common in England/Australia? (maybe other places too, but that's where I'm familiar with it). Many people argue that there are cool things you can do at 18 before you go to college, which will then give you some more experience in the world to decide whether you need college, and how you could most gain from it. Personally I'm a big fan of all high school grads being able to take at least a year off before college to learn a bit more about life, it's great that you have taken this opportunity. I'd love to see some more discussion of 'why I decided to do this, and where I think it'll take me'.

[edit: word choice]

joshmlewis15• 14 years ago

Yeah, that's definitely a good point to bring up. I have heard of the gap year, it's gaining traction in the US as well.

I decided to do this because I didn't feel, at the time, there was a college that was affordable, that had a degree that was relevant enough for what I wanted, and would fit my unique personality and approach to things. It was a gut feeling that college really isn't best for me. And it's definitely not a general rule of thumb for everyone.

I'm a self learner and like doing things with my own style and attitude. As far as the where I want it to take me part, I want to have my own startup one day, solve a problem that users care about, make money, and be happy every step of the way. Happy being relative here. Obviously some days will be bad, but you get the idea.

[Edit] What I described above is probably how the majority of HN feels. Ha.

gebe• 14 years ago

The "gap year(s)" idea is very common where I am from as well (Sweden) and I am a strong proponent of it. Traditionally you squeeze(d) in half a year to a year of military service (not as common anymore as it is now voluntarily), one or two years of some shitty job, and maybe half a year of traveling. Personally I traveled the world as a musician in a band for a while, then I worked two years at an airport throwing bags and then I traveled some more! This way I got both perspective, experience, money and maybe most important of all, I got a strong motivation to take on higher studies. I was longing for the world of academia after standing on the "factory floor".

With that said, I have friends who went directly from high school to university and I have friends who skipped it all together. All of them are doing brilliantly and work with things they are passionate about. Things tend to work themselves out if you have a burning passion for something.

ilaksh• 14 years ago

That's amazing how well it worked out for you.

But after I dropped out of college in '98 things didn't work out nearly so well for me, and it was many years before I was able to get some kind of software development career going, even though I had useful skills before I was in the 10th grade. Still not going great (OK though) and people always hold the lack of a degree over my head.

If I could go back in time and put in those two more years of school I would. Not because I think that college really makes a lot of sense, but in the context of our dated society it is still a better choice I think if you can put up with it.

MrBlue• 14 years ago

Congrats Josh. You are DEBT FREE! Just that puts you light years ahead of most your age.

mackyinc• 14 years ago

It really depends on your motivation to be successful. If you make a mistake learn from it.

goggles99• 14 years ago

If you are a computer geek, you don't NEED a degree if you are properly motivated, but good luck job hunting for a lot of careers (accountant, civil engineer, teacher, historian, psychologist, ETC). I personally think that technical schools are great. Skip all the elective and arts garbage that you have to take in college.

BTW, I was just talking to a civil engineer last night at the gym (after a game of basketball). He said that he (and other civil engineers) learned the majority of his skills on the job, and not during college (I have found this to be true in software dev as well). The problem with many of the jobs that I listed though is that you can't even get your foot in the door to those careers without a degree.

jarek2• 14 years ago

> He said that he (and other civil engineers) learned the majority of his skills on the job, and not during college (I have found this to be true in software dev as well).

That may well be the case, but these skills often build on material that was learned in college.

jinfiesto• 14 years ago

Kudos to you. I tried to go down this path, and ended up going back to school after I ended up dealing with an unfortunate amount of ageism and related flack for being young and not having a degree (I graduated HS at 16 and dropped out of college at 18. At 21, I've returned to school full time.) Additionally, in retrospect, I wasn't mature enough to make the plunge. You seem to be.

If I may presume to dispense a little advice. Work on your writing skills. I read your blog and lots of little errors jumped out at me. Strunk and White is invaluable. I find myself consulting it daily. While I have a fairly large skill set, writing is the most useful.

biesnecker• 14 years ago

I think it's fantastic that things are going well for you. I wish you the absolute best.

I do, however, wonder how much of the backlash against college is coming from liberal arts majors that ran up crazy debt while earning a degree that doesn't immediately lead to high paying work. I did a lot of the same sort of things the OP is talking about when I was his age (it was 14 years ago, though, so there were some differences, but it was similar), and I managed a college course load. I graduated in 2003 without debt (state school, didn't go crazy on the weekends, worked hard), and while I would have loved to have the extra time that you have now, over the last decade having a degree (even a silly BA Political Science like I have) has been really, _really_ useful. Most of the jobs I've had since graduation wouldn't have even looked at my resume without that degree on it.

Things are changing and it's becoming easier to show off your skills without a piece of paper proving that you meet some university's curriculum requirements, but given the relatively low real costs of a college education, I'd be hard pressed to recommend anyone not get one.

snowpolar• 14 years ago

What if he live in a country where hacker news is hardly known and the society values a degree very highly and no matter how well you perform and that there is always a glass ceiling to block non degree holders from rising up.

Will he be as successful?

fruchtose• 14 years ago

It sounds like you've had a great post-education career! Keep it up! That said, as a current senior undergraduate computer science major, I still think that college is an invaluable resource, or at the very least post-secondary classes. Working is great--it teaches you skills for working with others, how to use tools, and how to live in the real world. But education is not necessarily those things.

Go to college if you want not just a technical background, but theoretical grounding in ideas. I'm not going to college because I want to learn how to write code in JavaScript. (I learned that on my own time.) Introductory classes may do that (Arizona State gives you Introduction to Java as a freshman CS course), but nearly all my other computer science classes have been about just that--computer science. Computer science is not programming. It's applied mathematics. Computer science teaches you not only what is possible through computing, but how to judge ideas about computing and how to apply computing through computers.

Again, college is not a necessity. If you don't need it for your career, I have absolutely no objection to that. However, I'm incredibly grateful for the education college has provided me. (Make all the Arizona State jokes you want, but we have a fine CS department.) Computer science gives students an engineering toolset. Programming is not engineering; rather, programming is accomplished through engineering. This is why I believe in college for programmers; good programmers are engineers, first and foremost.

galdosd• 14 years ago

I went to college for four years but didn't graduate. Today I'm having a great time coding and sys adminning in nyc. I enjoyed college times, but there's no way you could con me today into thinking it was at all necessary from an economic perspective. I think of college as a luxury good spot, not as an economic investment. So I kind of agree with you on one hand, even though I have a softspot for college. Point is this: college has positives, but an efficient way to spend 4yrs developing skills is not it.

megablast• 14 years ago

Well, since you didn't graduate, you are missing an important part of college. As others have mentioned, this may be a problem later in life. I would agree with your main point.

Also, I am not sure how you could go to college for 4 years (my comp sci * maths courses were 3 years), and not graduate?

caw• 14 years ago

Some colleges have longer plans of study. My school (Georgia Institute of Technology) was ~120 semester-based credit hours, and if you took 17-18 credit hours a semester you could graduate in 4 years. After freshman or sophomore year you really didn't take more than 13-16, which automatically puts you on a 5 year plan. That's also assuming you didn't fail any courses, which was extremely possible in some programs of study. Aerospace Engineering was a 5-6 year major for most, and it wasn't uncommon to see 7th year Aerospace majors.

netcan• 14 years ago

First of all, congratulations Josh and thanks for posting. It's great to hear a young person taking such a deliberate path and I'm sure it will be valuable to other to hear about. Please keep posting.

Slightly tangental, the reason college is/will be so hard to replace is that we are not sure or can't agree what it's even for. If we had a thread about it everyone would have very different opinions. In some sense it feels like trying to replace parents or peers. You can't really break down what they're for and try to replace it.

namuorg• 14 years ago

Keep on writing and working on your writing skills. There were times at which I felt that your writing got in the way of the ideas you were trying to express. One other thing that stuck out to me was that it seems like discouragements from others have really gotten to you despite your insistence that they don't matter. Don't mind the haters and keep on working hard! Good luck.

abalashov5• 14 years ago

I was a philosophy major, and dropped out after 2.5 years. My career had been evolving throughout that entire time, and at some point I had to make a choice. After my second job, of six or so, nobody was even remotely interested in my education background, to the point where I deleted the entire section out of my resume with no material consequences whatsoever.

In this profession (excluding academia and high R&D, or specialisations requiring scientific background, or management layers that are still highly credential-driven) , it's all about what you can do. It's amazingly democratic. A degree is only used to differentiate a candidate from a random person off the street, and only in the absence of any other information about them, any meaningful experience, etc. The moment any of that comes into play, the degree becomes vanishingly insignificant.

The caveat, of course, is that if your career path takes you in that direction of doing something more than slinging code or running a small company, which gets increasingly likely as you get older, conservatise, want to get married, the works, you will be faced with severe barriers to entry in many places that are highly credential-dependent, if only through sheer institutional inertia, the force of custom, habit, and tradition, etc. While I do find it likely that these barriers are likely to become less durable in the future, in keeping with the general existential crisis of the received universal higher education narrative and the tendency toward greater meritocratic transparency in many professions (assisted by technology-fostered structural changes), there are certain things you will almost certainly never be able to do without the piece of paper, whether or not you'll ever need to use what you learned to get it.

michaelpinto• 14 years ago

As a fortysomething I can tell you that I had a few friends who did this back in the day: Over the short run it didn't make a difference -- but in the long run it did impact some people in a very bad way.

The lack of a degree often became a stumbling point mid-career: People without degrees often wouldn't be trusted for mid-level management jobs. Now if you're a solo act or working for a small company that isn't an issue -- but in a larger company (you know the ones with benefits!) it becomes a dead end.

In fact I'm ashamed to admit it but I now feel at a disadvantage because I lack a postgrad degree; and what makes that depressing is that I'm a creative professional which should in theory be as "hands on" as you get in a career. I also had to say that I've watched folks with ivy university degrees have doors open to them which are often closed to others (look at the last four Presidents of the United States).

Another thing for techies to think about is the fact that there's a ton of ageism in tech that nobody talks about. So yes if you're a twentysomething who can program you don't have to worry, but twenty years later even if you keep up you may not get hired. And at that point having a college degree can open up doors that might have been closed.

But you say that you're the next Zuck: Well one should also keep in mind is that the natural state of startups is to fail. So even if you're brilliant, your company may still fail. In fact even if your company does well there's nothing that says that it can't go south after a few years. And if that is the case having a degree won't hurt you.

Lastly I'd leave everyone with this thought: The value of an education isn't a career unless you are studying business. The value of an education should be to make you a better and more rounded person. And knowing more about the world will make you better at everything that you touch. If you want an example think about Steve Jobs learning about typography in college and how it shaped the original Mac.

abalashov5• 14 years ago

All good advice. I agree that before pursuing this path, one should be reasonably sure (as much as that is possible) that one will never wish to do something in a profoundly credential-driven setting.

However, I also would venture a guess that a lot of doors hitherto closed to non-graduates are going to open in the future, as the realisation slowly overtakes the next generation or two that universal four-year education has been greatly oversold relative to its price, at least, to the 90% of undergraduates who are going to university out of the sincere conviction that this is necessary in order to make a career in something decidedly "vocational", such as PR, advertising, real estate, insurance, accounting, etc.

Markets do have a way of rationalising around these types of inefficiencies eventually, if allowed to do so.

Also, if one cannot sustain a great deal of self-motivated, omnidirectional intellectual curiosity and well-roundedness as a matter of disposition, of habits of mind, then this path is probably not the right one. On the other hand, can college correct these deficiencies? I have never seen an example of schooling instilling these life-affirming traits in someone who did not already possess them in some measure. I realise that, pragmatically speaking, incremental improvement is the goal. However, you and I both know that the overwhelming preponderance of undergraduates shuffle in, through and out of college without experiencing a great deal of this ostensible intellectual growth.

abraxasz• 14 years ago

I'm not too sure about the market correcting these inefficiencies in the near future. I mean, I understand your point, and it makes total sense, but it may not be in everyone's interest to act on this.

Let me give you an example. I interned in a company in France that would hire only from the top 3 engineering and top 3 business schools in France. I had friends who where very successful interns in the company, but who didn't get hired full time in the end because they came from the 4th or 5th business school.

Now I've been talking about this a lot, and the main argument I heard was: HR people are just trying to cover their asses in case something goes wrong. In France (I don't know if it's the same here), firing an employee is so difficult that companies want to make sure they don't screw up when hiring. Or rather, HR want to make sure that if they screw up, nobody can hold them responsible. If they think a non-degree holder would be a good fit, that they hire him, and that this non-degree holder turns out to be not so good, then everybody is going to ask them why on earth did they bet on someone with no degree. If they stick to someone from a top school, they can still say: look, he seemed really good, he has top credentials.. it's just bad luck, we did everything possible.

Someone mentioned institutional inertia above. I think that's exactly what this is about.

Note: I'm not generalizing to all HR people. I've read lots of posts on HN concerning the hiring process, and it seems that people take it seriously in the startup world. My small experience in big companies tells me that it works differently there.

henrikschroder• 14 years ago

Two things:

Another door that opens with a university degree is immigration into other countries. Most countries want skilled workers to immigrate, and the way they rate that is through your education level. I have a MSc, and even though the bulk of what I learned at university is impractical, I don't regret it one bit, I don't regret sticking with it until I got my degree.

It is never too late to get a degree. When I started uni, most were straight out of high-school or military service, but there were a bunch of older people who had worked for ten years or twenty, who went back to get a degree. Some were even partly sponsored by their companies. There are advantages to getting a degree when you're in your 20s and haven't got any serious committments in life yet, but it's never too late.

ssttoo• 14 years ago

Wanted to emphasize the immigration/visa point. Several times I've seen briliant people that can't move to US to start a job because they don't have a degree.

maukdaddy• 14 years ago

I cannot up vote you enough for this insight. I'd like to add a couple of thoughts:

To all the developers who think they wouldn't learn anything in college - how are your English skills? Marketing skills? Do you understand the theories behind price elasticity or scarcity of resources? Do you know enough about accounting, finance, revenue, and cash flow? How much would you benefit from a couple of marketing classes?

It boils down to this: how much difference would a basic understanding of other subjects (marketing, economics, English, other languages) make on the success of your startup? What about your career in general?

So much of what I learned in school, both undergrad and graduate, came from subjects where I did not already have experience. In subjects where I already knew a great deal, I still gained from learning the theory behind the practical knowledge I already possessed.

I can't stress enough how much more well-rounded college makes a person.

abalashov5• 14 years ago

Do you understand the theories behind price elasticity or scarcity of resources? Do you know enough about accounting, finance, revenue, and cash flow? How much would you benefit from a couple of marketing classes?

I learned all that from starting a business, though I had an abiding interest in the underlying principles and came into it with a great deal of self-taught theoretical knowledge. But I agree that if it weren't in my disposition to do so, I'd have been at a huge disadvantage. It takes a certain kind of person to learn what he needs to know in spite of formal education, otherwise tunnel vision and compartmentalisation become a substantial hindrance.

Bottom line: you can compensate for lack of college, but it's not a smooth ride. It takes real work. It's mostly a question of cultivating the right kind of habits of mind.

Also, I have a hidden advantage not shared by most of my fellow dropouts: I come from a family of academics, and spent most of my childhood and adolescence on or near college campuses. The imprint left by the organic outcome of chronic exposure to the background radiation of this kind of ethos probably made dropping out more survivable for me than for many people.

anonymous5421• 14 years ago

No offense but I think your post is wrong in pretty much every respect (and I say this as someone with an ivy league undergraduate degree and nearly done with a Top 10 law degree).

You say people are harmed in their careers by lack of a college degree. This may be true in some of the more traditional, salaryman-type career paths. But there's lots of people who are harmed by college/graduate school! Tons of debt and years wasted on useless degrees are a tremendous drag on people's development and growth in their knowledge and careers. And if one has a positive and open attitude, there's way better opportunities one can find than the traditional salaryman type office jobs.

Also, as someone with an Ivy league degree I find your citation to "doors opening" and the recent Presidents just kind of amusing. It's true that you can go to an Ivy League school and do well and do things coming out of it. But the people going into an Ivy League school are often either 1) hard-driving people who'd do well in any setting, or 2) connected people whose families are going to make their lives easy no matter what. So it's not the school doing any of the heavy lifting in terms of these people's success. And on the flip side, there's way more Ivy League barristas then Presidents!

Finally I've always found the "well-rounded person" thing to be a huge myth. I've gotten way more out of the Internet -- reading forums, learning about books, interacting with interesting people, doing online courses etc -- than I ever did in college. And not like 50% more, but orders of magnitude more. The "well-rounded person" thing is just some sort of conventional meme/rationalization for school attendance that doesn't have much content. They don't teach quality ideas in the humanities or social sciences (except maybe economics) -- so you don't really become a well-rounded person, and if you're not in some hard sciences or math program you don't really learn anything at all in general (for context, I was a social sciences major). You just become a person who's been exposed to some weird mixture of stuff taught because of Tradition, and whatever faddish developments are going on in your field.

And yeah, Jobs took a typography class before dropping out. But if you want to learn stuff, there's way more effective ways than college now.

Our culture has a very strong pro-school bias, though that's starting to break down (LSAT takers were down 16% this year!!) People bucking the norm like OP are a big step towards a better and more critical attitude towards education, and one which I think would help lots of people be happier in their lives.

abalashov5• 14 years ago

People bucking the norm like OP are a big step towards a better and more critical attitude towards education, and one which I think would help lots of people be happier in their lives.

And that, right there, is the crux of it. It's not about whether college is or isn't necessary per se; it's about doing it for the right reasons, and recognising what those genuinely are, quite apart from the incumbent force of Tradition and the very deliberate propagandistic meddling of its institutional exponents.

Create• 14 years ago

Also, as someone with an Ivy league degree I find your citation to "doors opening" and the recent Presidents just kind of amusing. on the flip side, there's way more Ivy League barristas then Presidents!

haldean• 14 years ago

I'm just about done with an Ivy League degree in CS, and I've already seen the advantages of it. Recruiting here is ridiculous; I've gotten an interview with every company I've applied to, and that was true two years ago when I was applying for internships as well. My resume at the time wasn't anything special, but all of my friends and I all were having to pick between top tech companies.

> But the people going into an Ivy League school are often either 1) hard-driving people who'd do well in any setting, or 2) connected people whose families are going to make their lives easy no matter what.

This is probably true. But there's no doubt that this reputation benefits all of the students here. Many of my peers work much harder than I do and place a much higher priority on schoolwork and research than I find healthy. The fact that they do, though, reflects well on my institution and therefore on me.

rgbrgb• 14 years ago

>>> They don't teach quality ideas in the humanities or social sciences...

I stopped taking you seriously right here. That is really one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

hobin• 14 years ago

"Lastly I'd leave everyone with this thought: The value of an education isn't a career unless you are studying business. The value of an education should be to make you a better and more rounded person."

Note that we aren't all living in the American system where everyone does a major and takes a bunch of general courses. In the Netherlands, for example, if you major in X you don't necessarily become a 'more rounded person'. I major in math, which means that all I get is math, math, math and more math - if I wanted, I might be able to get some physics or CS courses as electives.

untog• 14 years ago

I went though the UK university system, which AFAIK is similar to the Dutch system. Despite wanting to become a developer, I chose History and Politics. It's a topic that fascinates me, and I had a great three years. I also learnt a lot about debating, teamwork, meeting deadlines, etc. etc. etc.

Then I graduated and started working as a developer. I don't regret my choice.

peterwwillis2• 14 years ago

First of all,

I'm not an idiot

No, you are. Everyone is an idiot; it's a sliding scale. Some people are more or less depending on their circumstances. And you become a little less of an idiot the older you are and more mistakes you make. But that's beside the point.

Skipping college has nothing to do with whether you're successful professionally (unless you plan to work in a field where degrees are prerequisites). Anyone can make something of themselves without that piece of paper. You can be the next Bill goddamn Gates without going to a single lecture. I think being successful is relatively straightforward, and that achievements are just a product of how much effort you put into them.

On the other hand, college can give you all the weird shit that matters later accidentally. For example: [Steve] Jobs later said, "If I had never dropped in on that single calligraphy course in college, the Mac would have never had multiple typefaces or proportionally spaced fonts."

It's really like a really tiny specific version of the internet with walls and faces and casual random interaction that you don't get if you're on your own. People need outside stimuli that they would not normally obtain just by living their life and trying to get a specific job or going after what they think they're expected to. Jobs was a big proponent on experimenting and exploring (not trying to suck Jobs' dick here, but he was right about how outside influences are so... influential)

And it's also a great place to get laid.

maratd• 14 years ago

> [Steve] Jobs later said, "If I had never dropped in on that single calligraphy course in college, the Mac would have never had multiple typefaces or proportionally spaced fonts."

This point is brought up quite a bit. If you replace college with sitting in front of a TV or playing video games, then yes, college becomes a far more stimulating environment.

If, on the other hand, you devoted 4 years to traveling to every country on this planet, you can spend 1 week in every single country. How rewarding would that experience be? How much would you learn? How would it change you? And all that traveling will still cost you less than tuition at a public university.

> And it's also a great place to get laid.

I can't argue this point. However, I will note that you do not have to be a matriculated student to enjoy the benefits of the student body, if that's your cup of tea.

mburshteyn3• 14 years ago

For most people, college is sitting in front of a TV and playing video games.

joeguilmette• 14 years ago

I think travel is hugely under rated as a people builder.

This is an unlikely story of how a college dropout learned that college is really important. Kind of.

I stopped going to college after 4 years and 7 different "majors". I couldn't find anything I was interested in enough to study for another four years.

I had no skills.

I waited tables. I worked in a deli. I talked my way into an entry level job at an online retailer. I worked my way up into the office from the warehouse in a few weeks. I made a lot of contacts and got a lot of job offers from that little job.

I turned them down. A friend bought Dropzone and I got a job working for him. It was shit work, I was a van driver, but it was after a four month trip to Brazil and the people were fun.

I learned to skydive and in 3 or 4 months he had me running the place as his operations manager. We started little, a tiny 4 seater plane and a minivan. I negotiated contracts, won us a sweet lease on a huge, brand new turbojet aircraft. I hired instructors, brought us from film to digital video (no small feat! we had to figure out how to edit 70 videos a day - while customers waited). I was even lucky enough to run a Groupon when it was just another stupid online marketing gimmick (so we thought. imagine our surprise when we sold 1000 jumps in 3 days, at the time 50% of our annual traffic.)

My girlfriend's brother died and she had to fly home to the Philippines on a one way ticket with no money for a return. I slept thru her calls and woke up to a text just before she boarded her flight at SFO. A few days later I helped my friend find a replacement for me, sold my car and bought a plane ticket. We spent 2 months in the Phils, Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore.

I came back with -$238 in my bank account.

I did odd jobs on Craigslist; I set up people's email accounts, packed boxes, synced computers to other computers for people. I sold a lot of my stuff I had in boxes.

I saved up and got myself an instructional rating.

In five months this past summer I made $30k - enough for my girlfriend and I to travel around southeast Asia for the past 5 months. Thanks to the flexibility of the skydiving industry it took me 4 exploratory emails to get 3 job offers. I'll be heading to NYC in May to work for a few months before I pack up and take off for another 6 months.

Do I want to be a skydiving instructor for the rest of my life?

No.

If anyone here says they want to work their current job the rest of their life they are lying or autistic.

That said, I'm really, really happy with where I am and even more happy that I stopped going to college.

This is all because of one specific friend, the one who bought the Dropzone. He was around 30 when we met. I met him through a roommate. The roommate was my age, 21 or 22. He and I lived with about 12 other people (it fluctuated from 9 to 14. I rented a walk in closet for $250, another friend Bart rented out the hot water heater space under the stairs for $300).

It was a college house. They all went to UCSC. I did not. I had gone to Highschool with one of them and moved in when they rented the house after moving off campus their Junior year.

College is a great, great thing for some people. To me, the value I see in it is not necessarily what you learn (except obviously for science related majors and others who learn specific, specialized skills), but who you meet.

Who you know, you real social network, has been a huge indicator of success for me and others.

My unusual path would have been impossible had I finished college or gone the traditional 'straight to a 4 year uni' route rather than dropping out of city college.

joshmlewis15• 14 years ago

> I'm not an idiot.

Yes, I am an idiot in those terms. My point was, I'm not just making a mindless decision. And to some my reasoning may be off by scores, but it's still a choice that I have made after hours of thinking hard and research.

edwinnathaniel2• 14 years ago

It's great that you put a lot of thought into this (maybe, or it could be just as easy as seeing what in front of you, who knows right? some people think for the long-term some people thought they think for the long-term based on a recent, possibly anomaly, trend).

If you can be successful one day that's great. Having said that, I'm a little bit ... sad for the upcoming generation of people in the IT industry (yes, I'm putting you in IT field in general). Less barrier to enter means commoditization. Soon enough people of your kind will be pay lower and lower and lower.

Let me play the devil's advocate: Why should I pay people like you big dollars if anybody, dime a dozen, can do it?

Good luck to you.

pron6• 14 years ago

You've made a decision to shut yourself off from knowledge and insight that are hard to come by any other way. Spending a few years in college is the easiest, shortest route to some pretty profound insights, and you say, "nah".

I'm not saying that you won't have a fulfilling life, and I'm certainly not saying that going to college could influence its outcome. I'm just saying that you've made your decisions based on some very stupid assumptions. It would have been better to say, "I'm not going to college because I don't feel like it, and I want to see where life takes me". I can actually respect that. But making such a decision, or any decision for that matter, based on false assumptions - actually, criminally negligent and outrageously stupid assumptions - is just... dumb.

Actually, you know what? It probably wouldn't have made a difference. You look at life from such a practical point of view - jobs, "achievements", "lessons" etc. - that it would have been hard for you to really gain much at college, and maybe most people are the same way, even if they do go to college. I can only pity them, because successful as they may become, they lead a pitiful life: the life of the willfully blind.

peterwwillis2• 14 years ago

It's not really a decision that can be well reasoned when considering how it will affect the rest of your life, because there's so many ways it can affect you. You might meet your wife. You might meet your start-up co-founder. You might learn some nugget of philosophy or history or something that changes how you think, or influences a critical decision later in life. There's no way to know. But not having that exposure will surely not benefit you much at all.

pron6• 14 years ago

And I'd like to add that more than just providing external stimuli in service of some other goal, education is a goal in and of itself. It truly does broaden one's horizons, makes one able to look at the world from different perspectives (if one's smart enough). It can make you a deeper person, which is an experience much more pleasurable than many so called "achievements".

jiggy20113• 14 years ago

People keep mentioning this horizon broadening effect, I'm not sure where this comes from.

My most horizon broadening experience at college was from learning to look after myself and become more independent but that was not from the college itself.

Most of our classes were learning something about Java or about some algorithm etc.

Sure, some of it was interesting stuff that made you think but I don't think there was any extra value because I had taken a class vs having read a good book on the subject or participated in online discussion.

Most of college was people fretting over how much work they had to do for some individual class to avoid taking their average down.

The deep philosophical debates that everyone imagines happening at college seemed quite rare from what I experienced. I went to quite a good college too but most people were more interested in football, drink and women.

niklas_a• 14 years ago

The fact that you think you can understand the outcome of such a huge decision in just 10 months is telling. Come back in 10 years.

fungi• 14 years ago

so i'm basically that kid in 10 years.

all i wanted to do is code, code and code some more for ethical orgs and thats all i've done for the past 10 years.

but now (literally now, i'm procrastinating while i should be doing an assignment) i am back doing a degree via distance ed to get a piece of paper... and the only reason i'm doing that is i want to work in japan which is a bit hard without a piece of paper.

anyway, if you want to code and have the skills and opportunities infront of you then take them, uni will be there waiting for you whenever you want.

DanWaterworth• 14 years ago

> uni will be there waiting whenever you want.

Exactly! I decided not to go to university and got a job at a small company instead. For me this was the best option. I was bored with formal education, I much prefer to teach myself. Opting out of university has not prevented me from revisiting that decision if ever/whenever I see fit.

beatpanda• 14 years ago

I don't think any of what you wrote justifies not going to college. You could have easily done all the same things you did in the last ten months while taking classes at the same time. That's what I've been doing my entire college career, and I've had well-paying jobs, great internships, networking opportunities, travel for cool conferences and hackathons, and all the rest, all while earning a degree.

It's great that you're making all these things happen in your life, but it doesn't make sense to think of it in terms of "this is what I'm doing instead of college." You can easily do both.

leon_• 14 years ago

> I started out just knowing the basics: HTML/CSS and some Photoshop skills. Hardly any knowledge of JS or any programming language.

What did you do during your high school years? Why didn't you learn to code then?

ozataman• 14 years ago

It is too soon to write articles like this. Let's talk again in 10-15 years. Contrary to the recently frequent rhetoric, a good college education does much more than getting you an interview.

It shapes your mind, teaches you to teach yourself, to research, to think analytically about unknown problems. It matures your and gets you to think in ways more "senior" and well balanced. It gives you the foundation to shine and go from being an hourly contractor to a desired full-time employee after a few months of work (and not the other way around as exemplified in the article).

It gives you a chance to meet and spend time with numerous interesting, brilliant peers of your own age. It also puts you in an environment where you can learn from smart, accomplished people much older than you.

If you go to college just to get the diploma at the end, you'll gain and learn less than what otherwise would be optimal. Even so, it is not time wasted at all.

mattchew• 14 years ago

Congratulations.

I'm surprised to see so much negative feedback here for someone who is hacking our (messed up) education system.

It's true that not having college credentials will be a hassle or an outright barrier for a lot of things. You sound capable of dealing with or working around the hassles.

It's not as if you can't get a college degree later if you decide you want one. (I do recommend making that decision before starting a family though.)

gvb• 14 years ago

He did not hack the education system, he opted out of it. Hacking something is using it for a purpose the the providers of the system/item did not intend it to be used for.

mtoddh• 14 years ago

I had friends back in college in the 90s who did this. Their rational being "the job market is so hot, why bother getting a degree when I can start making money right now." Back then it seemed like anyone with a CCNA could start making 60k a year. Then the bubble burst, and suddenly it wasn't so easy to get a job anymore.

It's during the down times that I think more weight gets put on degrees. Not necessarily because they're the best metric, but because they're one more metric you can use to filter against when you have a vast pool of candidates. Of course, any decent engineer is unlikely to be competing against a 'vast pool of candidates' right now, because the competition for talent is so fierce. But just because that's the state of the job market today, doesn't mean it will be that way tomorrow.

All that being said, some of the best programmers I've known were self-taught and had no degree. Either way, I wish the OP best of luck.

nekojima2• 14 years ago

Most of the best programmers I've known were initially self-taught, but also have university degrees. Which after they are 30-35 is crucial if they want to move up the ladder to executive within a corporate environment.

Having spent the last few months back in Toronto, I'm quite surprised by the number of people I meet (some old friends) who have MBA (from a top school), CA/CMA/CPA, CFA, CSI* courses and ten plus years of good quality work experience who are unemployed or significantly under-employed. Luck, or lack of it, has played a part for some of them not currently having a job, with companies they joined cutting teams or closing down.

There is an 'arms race' here for more advanced degrees & designations that makes it really tough to either keep up or get back into the race if you fall out of it.

* CSI = Canadian Securities Institute, CFA = Chartered Financial Analyst, CA/CMA/CPA = Accounting designations

hellokhoaphan2• 14 years ago

First off, I wanted to say congratulations to your fast growth and determination to succeed. I've personally decided to skip college myself and have never looked back. I'm going to share my thoughts with you, feel free to let me know what you think:

Three years have past and I've gone from having a $700 limit on my credit card to a 7-figure/yr marketing business. I'm not saying this to show off, but to show you that it doesn't take a college education to become "successful" in this lifetime. However, I'm not saying that you can sit pretty without a degree and still become a success; you've seriously gotta work your ass off. It's probably a lot harder for us, since we're not accepted in society as a person with a Bachelor's would be, but this is where resourcefulness and persistence kicks in.

There's a certain stigma around dropping out, as I've seen the past three years. People look at you differently and treat you differently, until you prove to them otherwise. I suppose it could be due to the fact that we've been encouraged and pushed to do well in school and to graduate; it's the "normal" way of doing things. I look at all of the YC founders and most are graduates or undergraduates of prestigious universities like Stanford or MIT. This didn't faze me one bit. I'm used to this kind of competition and I'm ready to prove to PG that I'm worth his attention. Come with this attitude and you can't lose, most people don't expect this from someone who has dropped out. Be unexpected.

Good luck to you and your ventures, looking forward to seeing some more good things from you soon, Josh.

jarek2• 14 years ago

> a 7-figure/yr marketing business

Revenue or profit?

hellokhoaphan2• 14 years ago

Last year it was all revenue, but we'll be approaching the 7-figure profit mark this year.

budgetperson• 14 years ago

As a high school student, the article was engaging and inspiring, as I have been also debating whether not to go, take an off year, or just go.

One thing I worry about for people who don't go is the lack of fundamentals that going to college can give you - about algorithms, low level languages, etc. The only way I've thought to solve that problem is to take (religiously) MIT OpenCourseWare courses, coursera, or some equivalent for 2 to 3 years.

But like others have said, you can always learn as you go and then go to college later if you feel like you need it. There are so many options -- it's a fascinating and difficult decision (and I've even left out the problem of societal pressure).

semyfore• 14 years ago

Well done. I am in the same boat that you find yourself. I've made great success for myself basically doing what I love (writing code) without a college degree.

It's very much as the second commenter (on your site) said, (though I've used this phrase all along and have never heard anyone say it's equivalent):

"Education gets you the interview, skill and experience get you the job."

__float• 14 years ago

As an 18 year old and soon-to-be-graduated senior, I am nearly at a loss of words in response to this article. He left high school with little practical knowledge ("HTML/CSS and some Photoshop skills"). To think of jumping into the real world with no experience and no skills? It just doesn't seem wise to me.

I'm going to college next year, and I'm glad. I'm in five AP classes this year, and I've taken four already. To think that I am educated enough to end my formal education here...well, it seems insane. I have much more to learn, and I can learn it in college without worrying about deadlines for jobs that will allow me just barely to make ends meet.

joshmlewis15• 14 years ago

Interesting.

I have guts and determination. And disclaimer: unless you have money or want to split your time working, don't expect to be living in a nice apartment with a nice car your first year or two. It's not that I'm broke, I live decently, it's just in the real world I've realized there are things called bills :o.

I have crazy determination and I've come a long way. I had the guts as a 15 year old to walk into a business with a contract, all dressed up and get my first web design client. I was 17 when I drove to DC by myself to do the internship.

You and I are different sorts of people. You chose to take AP classes and get ahead, which is great by the way, and I chose to spend my time learning real world working skills in preparation for jumping right in.

chiurox• 14 years ago

Two years ago I had to make a similar decision compared to what the OP did. I was about halfway through a top US university degree as an international student but suddenly excrement hit the fan, in the financial sense. I was faced with the choice of finding work in my home country, or spending another year trying to get enrolled at a university in my country that is worth going to (there aren't that many around here). Out of a whim and despite my lack of real world experience in software development, I posted my resume around and got a temporary job. It led to a better job, which led to another better one and another better one.

While my classmates are graduating this semester, I got to do real world software development, most of the stuff had to be learned on the spot. I frankly don't know if the outcome should I have sticked with college would be better than the path I took, but my choice certainly has been worthwhile. In terms of theoretical foundations, I admit that I'm lacking some, but I constantly supplement it with reading (and this recent wave of online courses has been great!) and self-studying on the side, most of which I try to apply immediately at work. I hardly think enrolled college students get to do that and get feedback from real users (instead of professors/TAs).

On the other hand, most prize the concept of college-life, dorm-life etc, which is great. I did have the opportunity to experience some of that. The problem is when people think that getting into significant debt and the uncertainty of not being able to be employed upon graduation is worth more than doing something else just because society dictates everyone should go to college, then something is wrong.

cmos• 14 years ago

Friends. The best friends of my life were all in my all male dorm at an engineering school. We would geek out in the computer lab on friday nights, having the time of our lives. The bonding that can happen in an environment where you can just relax and let your mind wander is hard to duplicate. Start a company with someone and at best your lucky to be amicable, because there is no way you can both always be in agreement with such large stakes. Staying up all night to finish a school project? True bonding.

The person with the most friends at the end truly is the winner. And now is the time to find them, so that when your 60 you'll have 40 years of awesome memories to share together. It's far to easy to start a company and slide away from being with or making friends.. that's time you'll never get back.

High school friends are a completely different category. In highschool you meet people because they happen to live near you, but then you go home for dinner and to sleep. In college you are smushed together with a couple hundred 18 year olds with no parental supervision who all chose the same school as you. And your together 24/7, so you find stupid and highly memorable ways to entertain each other, creating epic lifelong memories, so that even if you don't see each other for 5-10 years you pick up right where you left off. That's bonding.

You can always drop out if it's really not for you. Either way, make sure you have really good friends around you at all times.

abalashov5• 14 years ago

I made those same friends at work, though admittedly, work did consist mostly of college kids at that time. Still, college isn't the only way to form those kinds of connections and experiences.

adrianbye• 14 years ago

what people generally miss about dropping out of college is that guys like bill gates, mark zuckerberg, etc drop out because they are working on something that is turning out to be absolutely massive.

ie the alternative of staying in college was a small opportunity by comparison.

bconway• 14 years ago

10 months later

I'd be interested in seeing the same evaluation 10 years in. I think that's where it makes more of a difference, not in the short term.

japhyr• 14 years ago

A good college experience is better than a bad college experience or no college experience. No college experience is better than a bad college experience.

What is a good college experience? One that opens doors; one that provides specific knowledge and skills; one that gives you a background of knowledge and skills that you can build upon; one that leads you to a strong network of like-minded professionals; one that leaves you with debt that you can manage reasonably in the profession that you have been prepared for.

What is a bad college experience? One that does not lead to meaningful skills and knowledge; one that does not give you a foundation you can build upon; one that leaves you a debt that is not manageable within the profession you have prepared for.

I support people going to college when it is set up to be a good experience. I support people avoiding college when they are headed for a bad college experience.

eta_carinae• 14 years ago

Here's another aspect of what you might miss if you don't go to college.

Everywhere I have worked (including Google), I've been surrounded with great developers, some of which who came from college, others who dropped out early and just learned on their own because they were passionate about software.

Both types of engineers are doing a great job, but when it comes to being involved in important decisions, or choices that will impact the company or the infrastructure for a long time, either the non-college people have very little to contribute or they are simply not invited to the meetings. Practically, they are good at getting things done based on what they are told but not much more beyond that.

Our profession needs both types of backgrounds, but you are vastly, vastly underestimating the amount of opportunities that will just never present themselves because of your choice of not going to college.

Why I decided to skip college, and how I've fared (10 months later)

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