Why Apple put a Thread radio in the iPhone 15 Pro

https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/14/23871781/apple-iphone-15-pro-thread-radio-bluetooth

by CharlesW • 3 years ago

47 40 3 years ago

exabrial3• 3 years ago

I'll write a dissenting opinion, feel free to disagree: It's not only about Smart Devices, it's a direct shot at the Garmin ANT+ Ecosystem and capturing the fitness market.

Take Cycling: ANT+ Radio is the defacto standard for cyclists sensors. Everything from power meters to heart rate monitors use ANT+ because of its incredible battery life, ease of connectivity, and low latency. Yes there are BLE versions of everything, but they absolutely suck batteries. I change the batteries in my speed/cadence sensors maybe once every 18 months. Apple proved it can already reach these battery lifetimes with AirTags.

Apple typically enters a market and destroys competitor markets by introducing a new protocol and only supporting the new standard, fragmenting the market, then holding out until competitors run out of cash, at which point they can do whatever they way.

They're often quite successful with this, although they recently had to admit defeat with USB-C.

perryizgr8• 3 years ago

Already new samsung models are omitting ANT+. Every Galaxy flagship until the S10 had it, but my S23 doesn't. So I think the ANT ecosystem might have been going downhill on its own already.

snotrockets• 3 years ago

ANT+ is still wildly used, but most (if not all) recent models of sport sensors has both ANT+ and BLE radios.

lxgr5• 3 years ago

Is there really a meaningful theoretical difference between BLE and ANT in battery life, or are these just inefficient implementations?

BLE can definitely last for many months on a CR2032 battery, in my experience – I use cheap Bluetooth thermometers/hygrometers with a Raspberry Pi running Home Assistant like that.

exabrial3• 3 years ago

I’m not an expert, but if you refresh BLE sensors at ANT+ intervals the battery life is sad. It could be incompetence rather than a protocol definition problem, but the result is the same for the consumer: ant+ is just a way better experience

tw04• 3 years ago

It's not only about Smart Devices, it's a direct shot at the Garmin ANT+ Ecosystem and capturing the fitness market.

I guess anything is possible, but as a Garmin and Apple fan I just don't see it happening. When the Apple Watch Ultra is bragging about 36 hour battery life, I don't see how they push Garmin out of the fitness market. Garmin watches measure their battery life in weeks (or MONTHS in low power mode) - I can't see my primary fitness device being a paper weight if I forget to charge it for one night.

afavour• 3 years ago

I can't see my primary fitness device being a paper weight if I forget to charge it for one night.

But Apple Watch owners are already very used to charging their watch every night. I think the aim would be that your "primary fitness device" is the watch you already have for other purposes, so while it's not a direct attack on Garmin's product line they'd be hoping to vacuum up a lot of casual users who might otherwise have bought a Garmin device.

exabrial3• 3 years ago

I just got back from 7 days in the wilderness with my Epix Gen2 51mm. I have 72% battery life left.

Would have been higher but I used the built-in on it flashlight several nights.

vuln• 3 years ago

I can't see my primary fitness device being a paper weight if I forget to charge it for one night.

I just throw my ultra on the charger while I shower. 20-30 minute charge. I haven’t had the watch completely drop to 0% in its entire lifespan ~1 year 8 months. It’s simple and I never think or worry about it. I also have almost all notifications turned off on the watch. It helps with distractions and battery life too!

parker_mountain• 3 years ago

Yes there are BLE versions of everything, but they absolutely suck batteries.
Apple proved it can already reach these battery lifetimes with AirTags.

And they did it with BLE.

Thread is on 2.4ghz and on its way to becoming a de facto standard by basically be included in every major bluetooth SOC for free. Simple as. I don't think this is some direct strategic move, so much as a general movement of the industry that Apple will capitalize on.

kritiko• 3 years ago

It's definitely a strategic move inasmuch as Apple is a sponsor of Thread.

duskwuff• 3 years ago

They're often quite successful with this, although they recently had to admit defeat with USB-C.

Painting this as an adversarial scenario doesn't really hold up to scrutiny; Apple was heavily involved in the development of USB-C.

akhosravian• 3 years ago

The kind of comment that probably goes with someone being outraged apple ships a USB-C only laptop in 2015. Arguably they kick started adoption of usb C by creating an early market for USB-C peripherals.

Companies aren’t cartoon characters that only do good or bad things, and they also aren’t monoliths with a single brain making coherent decisions.

DannyBee• 3 years ago

It was not?

Part of the deal to get them to use the connector was that nobody would say apple wasn't involved.

This actually led to a particular journalist giving them credit for it despite them having nothing to do with it.

They participate now.

webninja• 3 years ago

EU regulation forced USB-C. Apple happily complied because they sell more accessories every time the ports change.

capableweb• 3 years ago

Apple was heavily involved in the development of USB-C.

Might be, but they really dragged their feet using it for their phones instead of Lightning, and I think I remember Apple saying they couldn't use USB-C and have the phones remain as thin as they wanted them.

But, as soon as regulation appeared that they have to, suddenly it became possible.

jdietrich• 3 years ago

Yes there are BLE versions of everything, but they absolutely suck batteries.

That's just not true. ANT+ is rapidly moving towards obsolescence because of the popularity of BLE. ANT+ is a proprietary standard controlled by Garmin, so the rest of the industry (i.e. Garmin's competitors) have eagerly embraced an open alternative. Nearly all current-generation fitness sensors support both BLE and ANT+ and have indistinguishable battery life with either. If you're implementing an ANT+ sensor in 2023, your only reasonable choice of chip is the Nordic Semi NRF52/53 series, which also has BLE and Thread support. BLE is essentially a freebie for the manufacturer and offers a lot of extra value to the customer, which is why even Garmin sells dual-standard ANT+/BLE sensors.

lxgr5• 3 years ago

It'll probably never happen, but I would absolutely love to see P2P messaging on the iPhone.

I've been in so many situations where that would have been useful: Sitting in different rows on the same flight or train, driving in two cars in the middle of nowhere and coordinating toilet/food breaks, finding each other in a mall/store abroad without roaming data...

AirDropping a note back and forth kind of works, but is a real pain compared to what must be easily possible even with Blueooth alone.

yellow_lead2• 3 years ago

I think you can definitely find apps for this. A quick google brings up bridgefy.

lxgr5• 3 years ago

Yeah, but these don't really work in my experience.

The advantage of a first-party solution would be being able to normally message, i.e. the recipient not having to have the app already open, mesh support in the background etc.

pharmakom• 3 years ago

They made an sdk for this but nothing really came of it.

rubatuga2• 3 years ago

Firechat, famously used during the Hong Kong 2015 demonstrations

mcphage• 3 years ago

Sitting in different rows on the same flight or train, driving in two cars in the middle of nowhere and coordinating toilet/food breaks, finding each other in a mall/store abroad without roaming data...

I can imagine a lot of interesting & valuable uses for that—but I think it would get entirely taken over by network parasites like ads or unsolicited dick pics.

crtasm• 3 years ago

Seems like it could default to only allow people on your contact list?

jackdeansmith• 3 years ago

Didn't know I wanted it, but I now really want P2P iMessage between mountain summits

brundolf• 3 years ago

Seems like it would be really easy for them to just add it to iMessage. It already seamlessly transitions between data and SMS as needed; just add a third possibility

Would not be surprised if one day they announce on stage that this is going to just start working for the last X generations of iPhone

rubatuga2• 3 years ago

Funny how pictochat had this feature 15 years ago, although mainly used to send NSFW drawings

zuhsetaqi• 3 years ago

finding each other in a mall/store abroad without roaming data

Shouldn't this work with the new U2 chip where you can look for someones iPhone like an AirTag?

dwaite• 3 years ago

So far UWB isn't really being used for data transfer.

hamandcheese• 3 years ago

One possible use for Thread in the iPhone is that it could be used as a Thread border router.

Great, so internet-of-shit devices can bypass your firewall and keep spying on you and serving ads.

lxgr5• 3 years ago

This is already possible, see for example Amazon Sidewalk [1].

If you don't trust a given device, don't bring it into your home at all; simply not actively connecting it to your Wi-Fi is no longer enough to reliably keep it offline.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=213281...

solardev2• 3 years ago

A device you buy and trust today can easily be used against you later on

c-hendricks• 3 years ago

Isn't a constant power supply a requirement of a border router?

Why Apple put a Thread radio in the iPhone 15 Pro

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