Dutch E-Bike startup VanMoof unable to pay the bills

https://techcrunch.com/2023/07/12/report-vanmoof-has-filed-for-bankruptcy-protection-in-holland/

66 78 3 years ago

Freak_NL4• 3 years ago

Ook de officiële VanMoof-app, waarmee eigenaren hun fiets van het slot kunnen halen, is niet voor alle klanten bereikbaar.¹

(The official VanMoof app, which bicycle owners use to unlock their bicycle, is not available to all customers either.)

Yet another reminder that you'll never actually own something which depends on an app or the company behind it existing. For context: VanMoof bicycles are pretty much on the premium side of the spectrum.

1: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2023/07/12/uitstel-van-betaling-vo...

28304283409234• 3 years ago

https://github.com/grossartig/vanmoof-encryption-key-exporte...

"With this tool, we want to make sure everyone can use their VanMoof even after these servers become unreachable - preventing e-waste."

Freak_NL4• 3 years ago

Good of someone to step in and provide that. It shouldn't take a third party though.

yourusername5• 3 years ago

For context: VanMoof bicycles are pretty much on the premium side of the spectrum.

This is the perception many people have but they're actually a bit cheaper than the average ebike, starting at €2200 when you would expect to pay about €2500 for most ebikes.

Freak_NL4• 3 years ago

(€ works on HackerNews, HTML escapes don't.)

onehp2• 3 years ago

Prices have dropped quite considerably recently. You can now pick up an e-bike as cheaply as €500. Once you get out of the "budget" range I'd expect to be paying more like €1500 for an average one.

tda2• 3 years ago

Especially when at introduction of the S3 a few years ago. The only alternatives in the same price range as Van Moof were very ugly / no-brand e-bikes. The S2 predecessor came in at €3500, the S3 was introduced at €1900. It is/was by all means a cheap bike, with cheap parts, sold at a low price, but with a premium image.

However in the last few years a lot has changed, and in no small part thanks to Van Moof. There are now plenty of competitors on the market that are more affordable, use more standard and more easily replaceable parts and have higher build quality. The Van Moof S3 has only gone up in price, while no changes have been made to address it's flaws.

So when I bought my S3 bike in 2020 it was a reasonable choice, even though I was well aware of the quality issues. And though almost every part on my bike has been replaced at least once (at no cost to me), I have no regrets of my choice back then; there were practically no alternatives back then.

But my next bike will surely not be a Van Moof. The brand has served it's purpose, popularising e-bikes for non-pensioners. But they made a few costly design mistakes, and instead of backtracking they doubled down.

In my opinion the automatic electric shifter without a pedal-force sensor is the main flaw. You can't control the shift moment (I guess because manual shift buttons would interfere with the design). The hub gear is not designed for shifting under load, so sooner or later it will break as the auto shifter chooses just the wrong moment.

Also due to the lack of a pedal-force sensor, shifting is only based on speed. When going up a hill or with heavy head wind, I would prefer to ride in a lower gear. This requires opening up the app and change the shifting profile. No thank you!

TLDR: Either manually controlled shifting or a inclusion of pedal force sensor would have solved 90% procent of the issues with the bike. Refusing to acknowledge such a basic design mistake is a god reason to go bankrupt. So thanks for the effort, but this is the market working as it is supposed to do. Bye bye Van Moof, good riddance

rightbyte• 3 years ago

Seems that you need to connect to the servers to receive the key so if the lusers haven't done that yet, it is too late?

We really need some electronic waste law for Internet of Shit devices that forces offline functionality or self hosted functionality.

Edit: There seem to be a backup unlock method with the bell, but I guess it is not very convenient compared to the app or a good old key.

hughesjj2• 3 years ago

It's insane how common they are in Seattle. They look super sleek but their specs aren't actually all that good.

I ended up going with juiced instead for less than half the price because it's pretty much all easily maintainable parts you can source yourself if need be. Lectric is great for that too.

mcv5• 3 years ago

I also occasionally encounter one in Amsterdam (most Amsterdammers wouldn't want to be caught dead on a VanMoof), and I find them confusing and annoying. They make weird, confusing sounds, have some sort of whistle instead of a bell, and the riders seem to think they always have right of way and always go faster than other bikes. Or maybe I interpret their behaviour more aggressively than with other bikes because of the weird sounds they produce.

(I don't think they're actually more aggressive than other cyclists in Amsterdam. I mean, that's a very high bar. They might even be more polite. And yet, they seem to have acquired that reputation.)

mcv5• 3 years ago

In Amsterdam staan boze klanten voor de deur omdat ze hun fiets niet kunnen ophalen die ze voor reparatie naar VanMoof hadden gebracht.

(Angry customers can't pick up the bikes that they'd brought in for repair.)

This is particularly nasty. Not only do they lose access to repairs and other services (like unlocking), some people have already lost their entire bike. If the company isn't already bankrupt, it'd be nice if they could at least finish the repairs that are in progress, and return all the bikes to the customers (I hesitate to call them "owners").

Of course that's a problem that can occur with any bankrupt repair service. The designed lock-in making customers dependent on a bankruptable company for everything from repairs to unlocking their bike, is more unique to this business model, but it should be a big warning against these lock-in driven business models that make customers too dependent on a single company.

It's of course tempting to trust and believe that companies never go bankrupt, but they do.

Freak_NL4• 3 years ago

That's just because the physical shop closed in the course of the bankruptcy proceedings, not because the bicycles were repossessed. If VanMoof does go tits-up, these bicycles will still belong to their owners. It sucks not to be able to get at them right now, but that will sort itself out.

deanc2• 3 years ago

It also boils down to the hardware of the bike itself. Most of the parts are proprietary and I explicitly didn’t buy one for this reason.

rasz• 3 years ago

This is pretty common. In New Zealand you cant charge EVs if you happen to have Android Google account created while in US, app refuses to install.

We bought a 5 bar Leaf [NewZeroland] https://youtu.be/4aBYJps_5ek?t=176

dirtyid2• 3 years ago

Slick looking ebikes. Had one on my wish list before realizing probably can't get service outside of official depots. Bullet dodged. Any dumb ebikes with comparable design out there that can be serviced at local bike shop and doesn't look like steampunking components together?

piva00• 3 years ago

I believe all Canyon e-bikes are using broader industry parts (Bosch motors, common components like Shimano or Enviolo gears, etc.) without looking steampunked together.

The design is not as sleek as the VanMoof ones but I do like the ones I saw in person so far.

dirtyid2• 3 years ago

Yeah city ebike looked pretty aggressive. Vanmoof also has pretty clean internal hub / belt drive options. It's just a very sleek package that no one else seems to be replicating.

deepakg• 3 years ago

People I know swear by: https://cowboy.com

They send the service technician to you. Saw it first hand - the service person came in a van that had all the tools and replacement parts. Not sure if it is better cost wise for them than having a workshop. Also not sure how well it'll scale.

I've also seen local shops help with minor repair (like seat change), but I doubt they'll be able to help with something more extensive with the drivetrain or battery.

I never got a Vanmoof because the version I test rode (an older model from a couple of years ago) jerked/made a distinct noise when it'd switch gears. Also, don't have room to plug the whole bike somewhere. Detachable battery was a must have for me.

Currently browsing more established bike brands here like Batavus and Gazelle. They are not as sleek, but are trying. I wonder if Vanmoof might have poisoned the well for smaller startups in this space. I'd definitely be wary of giving this kind of money to a non-established brand.

hellweaver666• 3 years ago

I drive an ebike by a German Company called Reise and Muller (https://www.r-m.de/en-en/bikes/). For the electrics, it uses off the shelf parts from Bosch which means you can buy spares (batteries, motors, controller etc) online and install them yourself with relatively little fuss. The motor also has a bunch of unused power that you can unlock if you're ok with getting your hands dirty ;)

deanc2• 3 years ago

Canyon, Trek, Specialized. As long as you’re not on a remote island you’ll have plenty of bike shops selling these or even acting as a dealership.

WJW2• 3 years ago

A pretty classic story: ambitious tech company takes on loads of VC funding, scales up way beyond what is reasonable in expectation of future growth, then a single poor product launch leads to an acute cash crunch at the same time that renewed funding has dried up due to rising interest rates.

It's a very traditional failure mode for overly ambitious people: after having a string of successes in the good times, they forget that there can also be bad times and so they take incredible risks because they cannot imagine failure anymore.

the-dude3• 3 years ago

A pretty classic story: ambitious tech company

Tech company? I thought they were a fashion brand.

hughesjj2• 3 years ago

"tech company" pretty much means "we take investor capital and have a mobile app or webpage" these days. Member WeWork?

midoridensha• 3 years ago

They're both, just like Apple.

WJW2• 3 years ago

App-integrated electrical bikes sounds like technology to me. They also have/had a good branding effort going, but so does apple. I don't see why having a brand would disqualify them from being a tech company.

Dwolb• 3 years ago

This is why “not invented here” syndrome can kill an organization:

one of the main issues with VanMoof’s bikes is that they are custom designed from the ground up

service

The first of these means it’s virtually impossible for anyone to repair a VanMoof bike themselves

and reliability

The company has been facing a huge backlash for its models, not least because its bikes appear to be less than robust.

take a huge hit.

And for most teams, it’s really hard to get service and reliability correct out of the gate.

Multiply it by your entire product with its own interdependencies and VanMoof’s fate is very probable.

Tepix• 3 years ago

I have been wondering why there business isn't successful despite them having good marketing. I guess that explains it.

seagullriffic• 3 years ago

one of the main issues with VanMoof’s bikes is that they are custom designed from the ground up

The frame, certainly - it has integrated lights and I presume other electronics. I wonder though (and doubt that) about the other components, which are easily sourced and likely off the shelf.

Designing a custom frame for a bicycle isn't uncommon or a bad idea. These bikes are also pretty common here in Europe and they do look good. They're popular, and recogniseable.

The promise being an all-in-one system you barely have to maintain. That isn't a bad or unfair proposition. So it's a shame the company seems to have been badly run.

The linked Reddit post - https://www.reddit.com/r/vanmoofbicycle/comments/14wexfl/la_... - particularly a habit of throwing things out rather than repairing them, and hiring inexperienced staff - might explain quite a bit of this.

Mechanical products like these basically need one thing: high quality parts. A 1/10 record of returns for repair seems like it's the root.

em5002• 3 years ago

True story. I got their original model X, which they offered as a limited issue in Europe. Near the end of the 2 year warranty period the controller broke (no power assistance at all), and the shop told me it was irreparable since the part was not manufactured anymore. Initially they thought it was just outside the warranty period, and wouldn't offer me any recourse except a store voucher for a few hundred euro. After I looked up the docs to proof it was (just) still within the warranty the were forced to offer me a replacement bike X3 model. Which I promptly sold, and I've been happy with my regular non-ebike ever since.

hef198983• 3 years ago

Obsolesence after 2 years? Nice, talking about sustainability...

Traubenfuchs2• 3 years ago

Both VanMoof and Cowboy offer very exciting hardware. I actually bought a cowboy bike a year ago and could reach ludicrous speeds with the "unofficial" app to remove speed restrictions. It was a amazing! Sadly it started "booting" on the second day and after some annoying support chatting back and forth ("please put the bike outside so it has mobile internet connection!") I returned it. Support chat partners changed multiple times per day for me, responses took a long time sometimes. Initial shipping times was also unacceptable and took months. They sold a lot more bikes than they had ready. Reddit forums are full of fed up people with buyers remorse. Generally, quality control is very lacking.

Being at the mercy of a remote company 5 countries over that has no serious presence in your city to maintain/fix/ship your 3000€ bike is simply a terrible idea.

tokai• 3 years ago

reach ludicrous speeds with the "unofficial" app to remove speed restrictions. It was a amazing!

Hope that traffic police one day starts coming down hard on this.

Traubenfuchs2• 3 years ago

That app (Cowboy Unleashed it was I believe) has an instant hard reset button that should make it very difficult for police to prove anything. Yes, it felt incredibly dangerous to be on a relatively light ebike going, what was it, at least 40 kilometers (25 mph) per hour. It's probably good I didn't get a replacement and gave it back.

djaychela• 3 years ago

I find it amazing that people are happy to ride with pretty much zero protection at speeds as fast as a small motorcycle would take you, where a proper helmet is mandatory and most sane people would be considering significant safety clothing, etc.

Many years ago (I've been a motorcyclist since I was 16), I saw the result of falling off without safety gear. Even at 30 the results of human-tarmac contact is pretty horrible. Even faster and it doesn't bear thinking about.

labster• 3 years ago

How does the failure of VanMoof affect Clarus the dogcow?

paganel• 3 years ago

Manufacturing them in the Netherlands (at least that's what the photo in the article tells me) was probably a mistake long-term, I can't see a bike-making company staying afloat while paying Western-level salaries.

midasz• 3 years ago

Taiwan: https://www.supplychainmagazine.nl/vanmoof-haalt-128-miljoen...

SomeRndName11• 3 years ago

I like this kind of globalist thinking.

agnokapathetic• 3 years ago

They're essentially just doing light final assembly/packaging on Bafang ODM subassemblies.

discordance2• 3 years ago

Took one out for a test spin in Tokyo a few months ago. Was a bit surprised about how big their retail presence is (a showroom between Omotesando and Harajuku… must be expensive).

Although it looked good, I was also surprised by how jerky the peddle assist was as well as the non-removable battery.

Expecting users to lug a big e-bike up into their tiny Japanese apartment to charge every day doesn’t sound great.

darkteflon• 3 years ago

Did you settle on an alternative? I’m in Tokyo too and it seems to be slim pickings outside of the ubiquitous electric mamacharis.

discordance2• 3 years ago

Can’t go wrong with a mamachari. Ubiquitous, reliable, removable battery and easily serviceable.

jwr• 3 years ago

I owned a VanMoof bike several years ago. A normal bike, not an E-bike, and there were no "smart features" in it, fortunately.

It was an OK bike. It looked great, I liked the integrated lights and the chain that hid in the frame was amazing (really practical if you lock your bike multiple times a day).

When switching to an E-bike, I decided to go with a Batavus Quip extra cargo e-go, and the main reason was that it looked like a fairly standard bike built from reasonably standard components. Which meant easier servicing. It also has a "bottle-type" bosch battery, which means I can pick it up and charge at the office. I don't know why e-bike manufacturers assume that I have an electrical outlet available right where I park my bike.

I looked at newer VanMoof models and they looked great, but I was increasingly worried about the "smart" features and becoming dependent on them — as it turns out, I was right.

SauciestGNU• 3 years ago

Wow batavus is still around? I've ridden their mopeds from the late 70s, and their road bikes from the same period, but I'd assumed they were defunct now.

nasir• 3 years ago

I participated in the fundraising campaign of Vanmoof a few years ago. They were the market leader with a strong brand and financials. Possibly I considered it as my safest and a no-brainer investment.

Over the past few years I kept hearing there are issues with the bikes but I imagined such issues will be obviously addressed. Instead, they started expanding internationally (I read in comments they even had a presence in Japan!) while angry customers dealt with issues at home.

Really disappointed and a big reminder to prioritise product quality over growth at all costs. Vanmoof's desire to prematurely dominate the market turned into a fatal loss for all parties involved.

tannhaeuser• 3 years ago

In my totally uneducated opinion, it seems like they lost the "fake it till you make it" race then. It could've worked by prioritizing hooking as many customers in the rapidly expanding e-bike market by looks and price, then deliver later on fresh investor's money, a strategy not unheard of in HN circles. But it's unclear what exactly the problem is - too many returns and/or failed parts or contraction of the e-bike market, or cheaper competition.

Daviey5• 3 years ago

Sad, I was really tempted to buy this but the thing that held me back was that they could only offer 250W power output which is the ~EU limit. Sadly, only non-legal products are appealing to a significant part of the market.

ilyt4• 3 years ago

Yeah, people really just want a small electric motorcycle but without fucking with getting actual license for it.

0JzW• 3 years ago

this is the worst in amsterdam where you see ebikes flying past at 45-50kph without a single care in the world who they might hit

Daviey5• 3 years ago

Yeah, except I do have a motorcycle license. So, find me a road legal e-fucking 1000w bike, where I can get it registered, taxed and insured.

Dutch E-Bike startup VanMoof unable to pay the bills

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