The Forgetting Pill Erases Painful Memories Forever

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2012/02/ff_forgettingpill/all/1

by pier0 • 14 years ago

131 48 14 years ago

rue2• 14 years ago

The potential for abuse seems staggeringly high.

moonchrome3• 14 years ago

You do realize this is extacy (MDMA) they are talking about ? I think any revolutionary effects of that would have been discovered by now.

colanderman3• 14 years ago

They aren't talking about MDMA. That was mentioned as an example of a drug which is used similarly (but doesn't actually erase memories). They are talking about PKMzeta inhibitors.

brother3• 14 years ago

No, Ecstasy (as it became known on the streets) is usually a mix of methamphetamine and MDMA. The mixture can vary but MDMA alone is not an upper. People abusing MDMA can't achieve the effects they want without the extra dopamine flush.

MDMA has a very low addiction profile and has had a horrible life of propaganda and misinformation thrown atop of it. MAPS is actually researching, with promising results, the medicinal effects of it with PSTD.

MDMA can been used in therapeutic sessions (i.e. marriage therapy) with staggering results. End of life treatment and acceptance (i.e. cancer) has been shown to be wonderful for couples wishing to "get everything out", so to speak.

MDMA isn't a drug you take to have wild manic sex and dance. Ecstasy is. MDMA is a drug you take with your wife once and a while to open the floodgates of emotion and talk about any little thing that could possibly be bothering you or hindering the relationship without fear of repercussion. It's a drug you can take to come to terms with dying and leaving your partner and kids while having a long, open talk with them. It's a chemical that breaks down your inhibitions and leaves you able to study what emotionally ails you without the anxiety that usually coattails along.

MDMA is a medicine and we need to start seeing it as that. Sure it has it's possible downsides (abuse potential, neurotoxicity) but we deal with these downsides with any drug we prescribe. We need to give these tools back to therapists so we can stop this cascade of emotional fuckery that we keep passing on generation after generation.

Why should we only focus on treating peoples physical symptoms and not their emotional state as well? I'm not speaking of mental illness, either. Along comes a drug that gives great power and insight into the emotional state and we illegalize it because a group of kids are abusing it. We need to pull our heads out of our asses and realize that kids are abusing every prescription drug that will give their head a tingle. We can't stop it, we can only attempt to educate and curb it.

einhverfr4• 14 years ago

I am thinking, put this in the drinking water.... Show on every TV all the re-runs of the campaign promises of whoever was in office so everyone remembers what they saw... Nobody remembers what they were promised.....

cackling evilly....

ComputerGuru2• 14 years ago

Another ridiculously linkbait title from Wired, completely misrepresents the entire point.

It erases the emotions associated with painful memories. Not the memories themselves. You won't forget what happened. It doesn't have anywhere near the same potential for abuse a drug fitting the headlines would have (à la MIB).

colanderman3• 14 years ago

Did you read the article? I did, and unless I totally missed something, yes, this drug has the ability to erase specific memories.

ComputerGuru2• 14 years ago

Read it and here's what I think: It's a subtle difference. By overriding the trauma associated with the memory, it becomes possible to forget it, but it does not in and of itself cause you to forget the memory.

When the memory loses its potency, it becomes just another passing detail. It doesn't have any power over you, it will not haunt you, and in time can be forgotten.

noisebleed• 14 years ago

Agreed that the title (and opening graphic) are irritatingly sensationalist.

Still, a better understanding of the chemical association between event memory and emotion is very interesting. Even if it's not used to develop widely available drug treatments, being able to manually and precisely knock out the link has great implications for developing effective psychological treatment of PTSD, depression, etc.

Alex3917• 14 years ago

"Because [MDMA] triggers a rush of positive emotion, the patients recalled their trauma without feeling overwhelmed. As a result, the remembered event was associated with the positive feelings triggered by the pill."

For what it's worth, this isn't entirely true. What actually happens is that MDMA shuts down the amygdala, which allows patients to access memories from the objective perspective of someone who is no longer in danger, and then reinterpret those memories in a more healthy way. The positive emotions created by MDMA do help in this process, but it's not the entire story.

Michael Mithoefer refers to this starting at 10:45 in this MAPS lecture:

http://www.maps.org/videos/source/video3.html

And Peter Oehen has a more in depth explanation in his lecture here:

http://www.maps.org/videos/source/video4.html

sliverstorm• 14 years ago

From the sound of it, then, this is the same as the normal healing/coping process, except the road is shorted with the assistance of drugs?

salemh• 14 years ago

Sometimes "normal health/coping" is not possible, or inexorably difficult. PTSD example: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8...

So, you could argue that in some cases it is "shortened," and in many cases for severe trauma, it is not shortened at all. Rather, it opens healing/coping as an actual possibility.

Especially for trauma which induces self or extro-destructive behavior, the "long-road" to "normal healing/coping" could be dangerous.

JonnieCache• 14 years ago

>MDMA shuts down the amygdala, which allows patients to access memories from the objective perspective of someone who is no longer in danger

Remember the literal meaning of "ecstacy:" To stand outside onesself

From Ancient Greek ἔκστασις (ekstasis), from ἐξίστημι (eksistēmi, “I displace”), from ἐκ (ek, “out”) and ἵστημι (histēmi, “I stand”).

fferen• 14 years ago

What I find more interesting than repressing memory is enhancing it:

'If the genetic expression of PKMzeta is amped up—by, say, genetically engineering rats to overproduce the stuff—they become mnemonic freaks, able to convert even the most mundane events into long-term memory. (Their performance on a standard test of recall is nearly double that of normal animals.) Furthermore, once neurons begin producing PKMzeta, the protein tends to linger, marking the neural connection as a memory. “The molecules themselves are always changing, but the high level of PKMzeta stays constant,” Sacktor says. “That’s what makes the endurance of the memory possible.”'

Anyone know of any product development based on this, or if it's viable?

apl• 14 years ago

  > they become mnemonic freaks

With heavy emphasis on the freaks. Messing with specific protein kinases by simply ramping up production/phosphorylation doesn't just give you better long-term memory. It severely alters normal plasticity mechanisms, one consequence of which being selectively enhanced test performance.

I'd say it might be viable, but in the 10+ year timeframe.

EDIT: In general, the implications of Nader's stuff (which wasn't really new, by the way) haven't been thoroughly understood. Mechanisms underlying long-term retention are unclear; we don't even know if LTP/LTD actually mediate LTM or are mere epiphenomena/sub-mechanisms. The whole picture is very, very fuzzy. We're far from magical drugs.

ISeemToBeAVerb• 14 years ago

"What I find more interesting than repressing memory is enhancing it, Anyone know of any product development based on this, or if it's viable?"

I'm certainly no expert in the field of neuroscience, but in terms of practical and available memory improvement, I've found that practicing mnemonic techniques is very helpful.

If you're unfamiliar with this area of study, I'm basically referring to a set of techniques that aid in memory retention, mostly through creative visualization and pattern creation.

If you can get past the wild claims put forth by guys like Tony Buzan, you'll find a wealth of useful information on how we can learn to remember and recall more information.

I've found the books of Dominic O'Brien to be good resources. There is another book called "Moonwalking With Einstein" that shows how applied study in this area can lead to real results.

rcthompson• 14 years ago

The ability to forget unimportant stuff may be important to remembering the important things in the long term. So I would never use such a drug unless it had been tested for decades and shown not to have negative long-term effects on memory.

NinetyNine• 14 years ago

Another possibility is that a drug comes along and enhances cognitive function with minimal side effects, and while the long term effects are virtually unknown, users of these drugs outcompete those who don't. What do you think any appropriate response to such a situation might be?

firefoxman12• 14 years ago

This reminded me of a really good movie about a guy (Jim Carey) who gets a painful memory erased and how he regrets it afterward. It's called Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind if anyone is interested.

underwater• 14 years ago

The movie was referenced in the article.

mhitza• 14 years ago

Thats why he was reminded of it.

firefoxman12• 14 years ago

Lol you're right. I hadn't read that far when I posted the comment. My bad.

urbanredneck• 14 years ago

What about long term? What is the effects in 10, 20 even 30 years on the ability to remember? There are many issues with this, interesting as it may be I remain sceptical.

JumpCrisscross2• 14 years ago

One must separate scepticism of the specific claim and scepticism of the overall viability of the treatment. On the latter, you are correct.

The efficacy claim, though, if sustained, is alone tremendously profound. There are many psychological diseases, at least in part based on memory, whose alleviation would be worth the risk of complications developing decades down the line.

Eliezer• 14 years ago

Jeepers, that's like the 27th time someone has posted a memory-tampering trick to HN in the last week.

You don't remember? You must have used one.

Incidentally, some of this research was already written into a forthcoming chapter of Methods, and people are going to think "Oh he just got that off that HN article", and they're going to be wrong. 'Twas just an amusing coincidence.

rbanffy• 14 years ago

> someone has posted a memory-tampering trick to HN

This is hacker news. And what a wonderful thing to hack is someone's own brain.

Of course, I'll wait until it's easier to rsync myself back to sanity if the hack goes wrong.

itmag7• 14 years ago

Speaking of this, has anyone tried Neuro-Linguistic Programming (eg the swish pattern) to accomplish the same goal?

There are some interesting videos on Youtube of people having their phobias cured, for instance.

peteretep3• 14 years ago

Having worked with a whole bunch of NLPers, the striking and consistent theme is how little success people practicing NLP actually seem to bring in to their lives.

I've even been to one or two live NLP seminars, and the people you meet there really are the dregs of polite society. Everyone is looking for a quick fix, and yet most people have been taking the NLP kool-aid for three or four years, and excitedly talk about all the conferences they've been to...

itmag7• 14 years ago

This guy is an acquaintance of mine: http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/reviews/index.php?title=Going_Me...

He seems pretty successful at life (MMA fighter, author, software engineering degree, Oxford distinction holder).

However, I don't know how much of that can be attributed to NLP. But just giving you one datapoint in the other direction.

JumpCrisscross2• 14 years ago

Looks like rubbish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Em...

Whenever something's proponent is arguing for suspending the scientific method in preference for something that's "free from hypotheses, pre-conceptions and assumptions, and seeks to describe rather than explain" you know you're in trouble.

itmag7• 14 years ago

I'm curious about a lot of things. Scientific backing is not a requirement for me to try something (as long as it's safe to try, of course).

Of course, me trying something out also constitutes a form of science (with a sample size of n=1 and no placebo controls, but at least I find out if it works for me).

That being said, I haven't given NLP a serious try (yet). I have a bunch of books on it but I find it hard to get started for some reason. Maybe I need a coach, but their rates are typically way out of my league.

Here's an example of a book I own, which is NLP-based: http://www.amazon.com/Make-People-Like-Seconds-Less/dp/07611...

The premise of that book is pretty damn appealing. Perhaps you see now why I'm interested in this area.

My overall impression of NLPers is sleaziness and trying to milk me for money via their uber-expensive seminars. However, I'm still going to try and find out if the techniques are useful to me, since I do know people in my social circle for whom they seem to work.

The main thing I like about NLP is how it breaks down thought. It doesn't just see "thoughts" as atomic, but rather asks about mental images, internal dialogue, emotional associations, etc (ie the VAKOG model of sensory representation - Visual Auditory Kinesthetic Olphactory Gustatory).

All in all, I don't think I need to be karma-bitchslappad just for asking a question. Also, I'm already in a shitty mood since I'm still hungover from Saturday :)

einhverfr4• 14 years ago

My views on NLP. I have known a lot of folks into it who had very little success in their lives and others who had a great deal of success. I think the problem for those who don't have success is that they are looking for a recipe book, while very often times what you have to do is find flexible patterns you can make work for you.

Of course this also means that one cannot just follow the techniques as they are. It's an artistic, creative endeavor.

kahawe• 14 years ago

Actually this sounds a lot like what EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) does. As someone who has tried EMDR, it is strange how you cannot re-connect with those painful feelings you had (in my case) 1 or 2 sessions ago and all you did was move your eyes. As far as I know, it has been proven to be extremely useful but a consensus as to WHY it actually works has yet to be reached.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMDR

The Forgetting Pill Erases Painful Memories Forever

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