Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/01/foxconn-still-hard-place-work/47193/

by EwanToo • 15 years ago

179 155 15 years ago

theatlanticwire.com

shareme• 15 years ago

I would say that is checkmate Foxconn

sosuke• 15 years ago

What if Foxconn just doesn't respond? Would anything actually happen to them if the people mass suicided?

juiceandjuice• 15 years ago

Would you buy a bloodPhone?

marknutter3• 15 years ago

So all the people working there who are willing to take extreme measures to improve the working conditions are planning to eliminate themselves from the equation? Seems like they're doing Foxconn a favor. What ever happened to going on strike?

Klinky• 15 years ago

Going on strike in China is suicide...

marknutter3• 15 years ago

Well, if they're planning on killing themselves anyways, what's the difference?

jfoutz2• 15 years ago

I think it's time for me to check out of the smartphone game. I really like them for travel, but this is crazy.

marknutter3• 15 years ago

Why not just ditch every piece of technology then?

jfoutz2• 15 years ago

It's a really tough call. Is it ok to keep using the phone i have? well, yeah. the damage is done. i'd think of that as something like a vintage fur. the animal won't get any more dead.

the bigger question is, is working at foxconn better than starving on the farm? I don't know much about rural China. I have a hard time believing that people would be driven to suicide without the factory job.

also, a lot of stuff i could likely make myself - i'm just to freaking lazy to buy the parts, solder them up, 3d print a case, and code up the OS.

I'm not saying every company needs to be lilly white, but i'd pay an extra $50 for a device that had a significantly lower probability of driving the maker to suicide.

-- edit -- to be clear, i could get a lot of what i want out of something like this: http://www.adafruit.com/products/330 + wifi + gps. i'm pretty sure i can get a cellular connection via a sparkfun board.

of course, i'd never get through security with a battery hungry monstrosity like that, but it's pretty doable.

Also, someone will probably point out the parts come from places far worse than foxconn, so perhaps i'm screwed.

knieveltech2• 15 years ago

Ditch every piece of technology that's got a foundation in exploitation and human suffering? Challenge Accepted.

TylerE2• 15 years ago

I'm conflicted. Conditions for the lower class in China are abominable with industry or without. The alternative for those workers is to go back to their home village and do subsistence farming. It's not like they have a ton of options.

redthrowaway3• 15 years ago

Or you could buy a Galaxy Nexus, made in Korea. I agree, those workers are probably better off working at Foxconn than if they stayed in rural areas and survived by subsistence farming, but it's still a moral grey area. It's akin to saying that slaves lived longer and in better conditions picking cotton in Alabama than growing beans in Africa. It might be true, but it doesn't make it good.

wtallis• 15 years ago

Open up any desktop computer and look around. I guarantee you'll find at least half a dozen parts made by Foxconn. This isn't just about smartphones, and it never has been. Foxconn has been all over the technology market for a long time.

Karunamon3• 15 years ago

FTA: (apple) so obsessed it even programmed Siri to avert uncomfortable questions about its origins

... freakin' really??? And I suppose that when I ask Siri in jest to open the pod bay doors, I should be worried that my phone is plotting my demise based on the response?

Homunculiheaded• 15 years ago

I think this may be a reference to the recent episode of This American Life on the topic [0]. On that program they use this issue as a light introduction to the main theme, just a curious feature of Siri that when you dive deeper leads to an interesting story.

[0] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/m...

Karunamon3• 15 years ago

What I was expressing such shock at was the way they phrased it. If you look at the image to the right of the offending sentence, it's a Siri screenshot with

Siri, where were you made? Siri: That's classified.

I don't think this is Apple "programming siri to avert uncomfortable questions" as much as another joking response to a nonsense question along the lines of "Open the pod bay doors" or "What is the meaning of life".

The implication struck me as utterly absurd.

MartinCron2• 15 years ago

I just finished listening to that episode this morning, and absolutely cannot recommend it highly enough. Some of the best radio I've ever heard.

maratd2• 15 years ago

One of the hallmark properties of a market economy is that you have choice. You don't like your compensation? You quit. The truth is that everyone at the factory is there because they want to be. Because it beats being back on the farm. But still, Foxconn created the problem.

When Western media freaked out over the suicides, Foxconn got scared. They started making their employees sign non-suicide agreements. What? That is the height of stupidity. If a worker wants to commit suicide, a contract isn't going to stop them. However, if a worker does not want to kill themselves ... it creates a new bargaining opportunity.

I have zero sympathy for Foxconn on this. They created the problem with a bad business decision, by explicitly broadcasting where they were vulnerable and making themselves even more vulnerable.

You don't need to be sympathetic with the workers either. They're just negotiating for higher pay in a unique way. Completely within their rights. Nobody is jumping. The ones who are going to jump won't advertise it or ask for anything beforehand.

zasz3• 15 years ago

Okay, let me see if I got this straight. Foxconn workers are picking between two shitty jobs. Job A is worse than Job B. Job A is so bad that they are threatening to commit suicide. What kind of choice is this?

hexis• 15 years ago

A bad one.

louislouis6• 15 years ago

It's called the choice of capitalism for the poor. Basically get exploited or don't eat.

ttttannebaum• 15 years ago

Do you have it straight? From the article: "Instead of the raise they requested, these workers were given the following ultimatum: quit with compensation, or keep their jobs with no pay increase. Most quit and never got the money. That's when the mass suicide threat came in. The incident actually caused a factory wide shutdown, reports Record China. "

philwelch12• 15 years ago

Genuinely suicidal people don't threaten to commit suicide, they just do it. These people tipped their hand by coming off the roof without Foxconn conceding to their demands. If idle threats to commit suicide are a surefire indication that someone's being mistreated, then millions of teenage ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends are mistreated, too.

Threatening to jump off a building shows even less conviction than a genuine hunger strike (which will kill you more effectively than picketing on a rooftop making idle threats). IRA terrorists have engaged in hunger strikes to get released from prison--does that mean it's abusive to imprison terrorists?

yummyfajitas2• 15 years ago

It's one option more than they would have without Foxconn.

If these workers were subsistence farmers back in rural China, with earnings < what they get at Foxconn, they would be worse off. They just wouldn't have anyone to blame or to demand more money from.

This is why prosperity often results in unrest.

Natsu• 15 years ago

The same kind people have in the USA, sadly. I know the guys on our production floor and I'll be blunt: factory work sucks.

If they want it to be better, they need labor laws. The people working that kind of job have little leverage. For example, if people are working 20 hour shifts in ~120 degree heat, it just sucks to be them. But once someone turns that into an on-the-record safety issue? Things get fixed. Maybe China should copy that...

Deestan2• 15 years ago

> You don't need to be sympathetic with the workers either.

Of course not, they are just accepting 36 hour shifts because they are bored. Not because the alternative is starvation and unemployment.

seanc• 15 years ago

> You don't need to be sympathetic with the workers either. They're just negotiating for higher pay in a unique way. Completely within their rights. Nobody is jumping. The ones who are going to jump won't advertise it or ask for anything beforehand.

They're not asking for higher pay. They're asking for basic rule of law and enforcement of contracts. Foxconn promised them money and then didn't pay it. In Shenzen there is no practical way for the worker to force the company to pay. The workers are screwed.

Getting your employer to pay up shouldn't require negotiation of any kind, much less 'negotiation' of this extreme nature.

I'm halfway through the TAL piece and this sort of thing is all that most workers are asking for; "Pay my overtime." "Use less toxic chemicals on the assembly line." "Let me do different activities so I don't destroy my hands from doing the same motion all the time." "Let me join a union without putting me in jail."

I have sympathy for anyone who works in conditions where simple basic things like this aren't taken for granted.

king_jester• 15 years ago

This is bizarre to me. Shouldn't we be sympathetic to the workers? Some of us are really lucky to have been born in a country where the industrial revolution already took place and labor union struggles already succeeded in establishing the ability to take group action against your employers for better working conditions. So what if paying a fair wage or giving better conditions hurts Foxconn's bottom line?

Also, it is not true that those that threaten suicide do not intend to follow through. This story is an unusual situation since it is group action against an employer, but people threaten and commit suicide for a variety of reasons the world over and your statement erases those peoples experiences.

ugh3• 15 years ago

No. It’s exploitation, pure and simple. It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation. I simply cannot comprehend how you cannot have empathy in such a situation.

Industrialization – over the course of more than one century – led to a more prosperous, just and healthier society in many western nations. That doesn’t negate the millions of workers who were exploited along the way.

maratd2• 15 years ago

> It’s exploitation, pure and simple.

One party can't exploit another without the threat or use of force. If no threat of force is present, then the relationship is voluntary and both parties should accept responsibility for participating in it.

> It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation.

If a man one thousand years from the future came to visit you, he may very well consider your standard of living absolutely deplorable. But that wouldn't mean you are being exploited. Since no force is being used. See above.

> I simply cannot comprehend how you cannot have empathy in such a situation.

Why would I have empathy for either party in a business transaction? What? This is business. It is as much business for Foxconn as it is for their employees. Let them hash it out.

drhowarddrfine• 15 years ago

When I hear about these things I can't help but think, this is how it is over there. This may be their culture and way of life. So how should we think about that? I do know that some have expressed unhappiness over the hours but, in the NPR story, I didn't sense it was grief. So I'm just unclear what to think.

louislouis6• 15 years ago

"Instead of the raise they requested, these workers were given the following ultimatum: quit with compensation, or keep their jobs with no pay increase. Most quit and never got the money."

That's a pretty shitty thing to do. Had the manufacturing process not been outsourced to Foxconn, would this kind of behavior fly under the Apple or Microsoft brand image? Probably not.

ChuckMcM2• 15 years ago

Lots of conflicting thoughts here.

It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money.

That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust.

The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which China isn't really) is that if they quit there will be no one else to fill those roles (economic scarcity created by a price imbalance). However if there are people who will fill those roles at the prices offered, then they will simply be out of a job.

It is always true in market controlled transactions that the buyer thinks they are paying too much for a good and the seller thinks they are paying too little. It's the fulcrum that creates the equilibrium point for the price of a good or service.

So in a dispassionate economic way one can say the employees are working to maximize their own economic value. If by periodically pulling stunts like this gets them more pay then they are doing their part to improve their economic station at the expense of the company. The company of course may try to use that to increase the price they charge to assemble such devices, and perhaps give some of that increase to their working staff.

Saying that their other option is to 'starve' seems improbable in a country that is based on the communist teachings of Mao and Marx. One might presume (but I don't know since I don't live there) that there are state jobs available. I could certainly understand it if those state jobs were less desirable. But what I do know is that nothing, and I really do mean nothing, is the same regarding working in China as it is in any western (non-communist / non-totalitarian) country. The best one can hope for looking in from the outside are shadows of those things that are creating them.

jisaacstone• 15 years ago

Not hardly communist any more, actually.

The other option would not be to 'starve', most likely, since there is an abundance of low-skill, low-pay work to be found. But don't be fooled into thinking the government (especially the local government) or the companies care about the workers.

No one will be doing them any favors.

mrlase• 15 years ago

Yeah, China hasn't really been 'communist' since the days of Mao.

To expand on what you said, here's an article from 12 years ago (that's getting incredibly weird to say) about China opening up to private enterprise: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/591841.stm. I think most would agree that China is now considered a "socialist market economy [with Chinese characteristics]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy)

I think it's really interesting to observe the progression of China's economy over the last 70 years, from the "Great Leap Forward" (and the subsequent Cultural Revolution) up until now, they've had quite some twists and turns, but their underlying ideological basis I find intriguing: they derive their policy from the 'Scientific development concept' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Development_Concept).

The Brookings Institute also has a good look at China's most recent economic plan if you're interested in looking over it: http://www.brookings.edu/events/2011/1101_china_economic_pol...

bballbackus• 15 years ago

They don't consider it inhumane, because it lies around the general treatment these people will get for the majority of low wage low skill jobs in China. This unrest is good though, as it compliments the already staggering turnover rate Foxconn endures with its employees, and will lead to marginal improvement over time assuming low skill job demand is competitive enough in China.

gerggerg2• 15 years ago

I don't agree. First, education levels among Foxconn employees are probably considerably lower than you can imagine. These people just don't fully understand how inhumane their jobs are or the lasting effects of the chemicals they work with and are probably directly lied to about it. Second they may already be owed money by Foxconn for overtime, healthcare, regular wages etc. and can't just outright quit out of fear of never seeing any of that money. Third there's a never ending supply of new workers, ignorant to the conditions in the factory, which pretty much nullifies their ability to bargain for rights. Fourth, according to the recent This American Life episode, THEY CAN BE LEGALLY PUNISHED FOR TRYING TO FORM UNIONS. I don't know how to stress the importance of that other than by raising my voice on the internet. HN doesn't have bolding.

TLDR:

They can't bargain. Plain and simple.

We have worker protections. If all that mattered was the free market then we wouldn't need them.

ChuckMcM2• 15 years ago

I completely relate to the emotion, in California we've had folks like Caesar Chavez organize to overthrow the exploitation of immigrant farm workers.

I'm saying that the article says they want more money. I'm sure there are lots of other things they want too but as I mentioned its very dangerous to assume anything when dealing with a culture and political climate that is so very different from one you are in or grew up in.

You point out that "Third there's a never ending supply of new workers, ..." That is, unfortunately, the economic force that is allowing these conditions to persist.

It suggests that one way to put pressure on Foxconn would be to cut off that supply through education and outreach to the people immigrating from the rural areas but I have no idea how that might be accomplished.

jhuni4• 15 years ago

Saying that their other option is to 'starve' seems improbable in a country that is based on the communist teachings of Mao and Marx.

Chinese policy is based upon the teachings of the capitalist roader Deng Xiaoping. Go into a Chinese bookstore and you will find his writings not things by Mao or Marx.

There isn't any sense in which China is communist. How could the working class be in control of the society, when they are suffering in foxconn? Such a thing could never happen under communism.

drumdance10• 15 years ago

You mean "communism." Has there ever been a single nominally communist state where the working class was any more than the horse in Animal Farm?

nextparadigms• 15 years ago

I don't think Foxxcon cares all that much about lost positions. They have this incoming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjo4AsTVh0s

danssig2• 15 years ago

Could you summarize what that is for those of us who can't watch youtube for some hours?

neilk• 15 years ago

> It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money.

I don't think that's what happened. Both the Atlantic and the "Want China Times" article say that the mass suicide threat happened after FoxConn didn't pay compensation to the employees who quit. So that seems more about human dignity, not just angling for a raise.

But the story says that employees staged the suicide threat, which confuses me. It's not clear to me if this was a move in sympathy to their former co-workers, or if those ex-employees somehow regained access to the building, or if the ones who tried to quit didn't succeed because FoxConn refused to let them out of their contracts or something.

chimeracoder• 15 years ago

First, China never was truly communist. It was 'communist' in the twisted definition that the state owned the resources and means of production, but that's not Marxism by any stretch - that's state capitalism, which is not the same thing as a planned economy (and neither of which is the the same thing as Marxism).

Second, China has not been 'communist' (note the scare quotes) for many years now.

Third, there certainly are many people starving in China, just as there are people starving in some part of pretty much any society. I find it entirely believable that there are people who one day's worth of unemployment away from starving in China. For that matter, I would have no trouble believing the same about a capitalist country like the US, or the socialist countries in Europe/South America.

Aloisius• 15 years ago

That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust.

There are dollar values in which many people will work in inhumane conditions, especially if it means supporting their family. Many people would willingly give up half their lifespan if it meant a good life for their children.

If you're willing to commit suicide as an act of protest, then you are truly desperate.

tlogan• 15 years ago

This article pretty much sums up why revolutions happen.

mbesto• 15 years ago

Some meta here:

After the incident, Microsoft gave Kotaku's Brian Ashcraft the following statement.

Foxconn has been an important partner of ours and remains an important partner. I trust them as a responsible company to continue to evolve their process and work relationships. That is something we remain committed to—the safe and ethical treatment of people who build our products. That's a core value of our company.

Is there anything human about this statement? Clearly they have never been committed to this. You know what sounds human to me? Someone admitting a mistake has been made and fixing it with clear actionable items. I hope I speak for the masses when I say I'm completely desensitized by comments like this in today's world, because I simply don't believe it.

Volpe6• 15 years ago

Wow this comment thread is depressing.

Anyone who can't see the exploitation in this has their head in the sand.

If you are paying/treating people less (in value) than what they contribute (in value) back to you, you are exploiting them. Simple as that.

Apple have taken to boasting how great their profit margins are, another way to look at that, is to say they are boasting at how well they can exploit others (suppliers and consumers).

Seriously, stop rationalising that your iDevice/Android is a moral device, it isn't in a utilitarian, or deontological sense, by any stretch. Only some weak relativistic point of view can justify it. But that's what helps people sleep at night, so we all just hover around there.

Dylan168075• 15 years ago

That is a terrible definition of exploitation. You're saying that even a single dollar of profit qualifies.

How are you even defining value? What if I like bananas more than shirts and you the opposite? Do we somehow exploit each other when we trade?

Volpe6• 15 years ago

how do you justify profit not qualifying?

bananas and shirts have an intrinsic value, it isn't subjective, they cost X to produce/ship, that's their value. The rest is exploitation.

Of course, a pro-capitalist isn't going to like this line of thinking, as it is explicitly anti-capitalism.

moocow01• 15 years ago

Very sad.

I think this should be seen as a case for why robotic automation should be encouraged wherever and whenever possible. There tends to be an undertone of fear when we talk about automation - fear that robots and technology are going to eliminate everyone's job. Lets also consider that certain jobs out there are not suitable or healthy for breathing, thinking, creative, unique humans (which we all are) to be doing.

siculars• 15 years ago

True, to a point. But I would also say that there should just be better working conditions, better pay, more vacation and better benefits.

Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

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