Tesla broke labor laws by telling workers not to discuss pay, NLRB claims

https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/31/23533743/tesla-florida-workers-pay-working-conditions-nlrb

by rntn • 4 years ago

163 58 4 years ago

raincom• 4 years ago

Any large company that breaks laws get away with fines. However, individuals and small businesses do not have that luxury.

dragonwriter4• 4 years ago

Yes, individuals and small businesses that break this law get fines, too.

tw98521358• 4 years ago

The amount is the same though so for large companies it’s just a minor inconvenience

anigbrowl3• 4 years ago

I took Raincom to mean that when individuals and small businesses screw up (not necessarily on this particular issue), the cash flow impact of fines or legal processings is much more severe. Corporate losses are distributed across shareholders and unless the offense is truly egregious the impact on the career growth or fiscal situation of the company's officers tends to be minimal or even non-existent.

TheCoelacanth• 4 years ago

Yes, and stealing bread and sleeping under bridges is illegal for both the rich and the poor. It's completely fair.

NickC25• 4 years ago

Sad thing is, the fines aren't really harmful at this scale. Any company large enough will just count this as OpEx and in some cases be able to write it off their taxes.

I have nothing against Tesla as a company, love their cars, and want nothing more than for them (as well as EVs in general) to become even more mainstream.

But we as a society have enabled corporations to behave like this and let them get away with crap time and time again only to be hit with fines that add up to a day or two's profits. This has to change.

germinalphrase• 4 years ago

This won’t happen until our political class more accurately represents the class and wealth status of average Americans. Until that time, they will continue to be more responsive to the needs of those most similar to themselves.

dragonwriter4• 4 years ago

Sad thing is, the fines aren't really harmful at this scale

Technically, they aren’t even fines; there was recently an attempt to pass amendments the NLRB Act which would have allowed fines (IIRC, up to $100,000 per affected employee if wrongful termination was involved, $50,000 otherwise) but it didn’t pass, so all NLRB can do is order make-whole remedies for affected employees.

option• 4 years ago

Vinod Khosla is famously ignoring court and violating CA constitution by restricting beach access. He can just afford to pay fines.

[1] https://www.surfrider.org/coastal-blog/entry/us-supreme-cour...

anigbrowl3• 4 years ago

Turnabout is fair play; there's no reason for others to respect his (falsely alleged) rights in such a situation.

ars• 4 years ago

So I read the full text of linked law about this - and it makes exactly zero mention about discussing pay. The closest I could find is you can't forbid people from discussing unions.

DangitBobby• 4 years ago

It looks like preventing employees from discussing compensation amongst themselves has been historically seen as a transparent attempt to prevent unions from forming, which is illegal.

1. https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/

encryptluks22• 4 years ago

It is also related to laws impacting commerce.

maxerickson• 4 years ago

The rights in section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act are vague, but they are easy to interpret as more expansive than that.

Telling employees they can't discuss pay pretty much directly leads to them not being able to assist each other in getting better terms of employment.

There's also a difference between directing employees to not discuss certain matters during work hours and stating that they can't discuss their pay with other people...

encryptluks22• 4 years ago

It does lay out the grounds for restricting employees from discussing pay and had been enforced that way. It is worded in a way that has a much larger impact that just unions.

czx4f4bd• 4 years ago

It would be rather pointless to protect workers' rights to organize without protecting their rights to discuss their compensation.

Crash0v3rid3• 4 years ago

I'm going to name and shame.

When I was employed at Morgan Stanley they told us not to discuss our salaries or else we will get fired. I wish I had the balls to report them while I was there.

birdymcbird7• 4 years ago

every employer ive had has been clear about this. in mid 90s i worked at a electronics store called circuit city. had coworker get fired after discussing hourly pay. in 2000s i worked gas stations and hotels. same thing. went back to school and first white collar job discussing salary was not allowed and they say so at orientation training.

think tesla news is because people are against musk and targeting him. convinced this still widespread and happening everywhere. media just pushing narrative.

kibwen2• 4 years ago

Lots of companies doing a shitty thing is not some magical excuse for any given company also doing that shitty thing. On the contrary, we should be happy that the focus on Tesla has the power to bring more light to this issue.

anigbrowl3• 4 years ago

This is baffling to me. it's so obviously a sleight of hand by the employer, in the sense of 'don't tell the others you're my favorite, or they'll be jealous.' The idea that the employer has any basis whatsoever to restrict conversation among employees is absurd on its face. It's one thing to say 'don't give away the recipe of our secret dipping sauce,' on the basis that it's a trade secret. maintaining internal secrecy about all compensation is just pitting your employees against each other and seems incompatible with establishing/maintaining team cohesion.

beebmam• 4 years ago

It's a good chance to raise awareness that sharing your compensation with your co-workers is an action protected by your civil rights in the United States.

clouddrover7• 4 years ago

every employer ive had has been clear about this.

Why did you submit to their unlawful attempts at restricting your speech? Was it just ignorance of your rights?

Everyone in the US can discuss their wages. It doesn't matter what employers are "clear" about:

https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...

This is not a new situation. The National Labor Relations Act was passed in 1935:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_o...

media just pushing narrative.

No different to you pushing your narrative that everyone should submit to the unlawful whims of employers.

LocalH2• 4 years ago

What rock are you living under? The struggle between employers and employees has been a major topic for some time now. Quiet quitting, etc. The whole thing about it being illegal to do this as an employer is not being discussed solely as a dunk on Musk.

Every employer you had was violating the law, if they told you that discussing wages will result in termination. Doubly so if they actually fired someone over doing so. Discussing wages between employees is federally protected activity that employers may not interfere with. It's very similar to how the FCC has the jurisdiction to prevent landlords from prohibiting tenants from mounting antennas and satellite dishes on parts of the property where they have an exclusive right of access.

Even today, if you were to walk around and ask random people on the street, they'd probably tell you that it's illegal or wrong to talk about your wages. I even personally know a manager of a business who has that opinion (and the two of us have even had quite verbal and heated arguments about the topic).

asoneth• 4 years ago

This seems common in my experience.

I am not brave enough to name and shame, but I worked as a low-level manager at a US-based financial services firm and my boss asked us to discourage our reports from discussing pay or bonuses. He seemed genuinely surprised when I pointed out that us doing so would be a violation of labor law. Long-story short, we ran it up the flagpole and the company ended up including it in manager training.

epicureanideal• 4 years ago

Don’t almost all companies do this?

medler• 4 years ago

No. Most companies work pretty hard to follow the law. I’ve worked at many companies and none forbade us from discussing salaries

LocalH2• 4 years ago

It tends to happen at companies where the power balance is stacked heavily in the employer's favor.

hsavit1• 4 years ago

Being successful in this day and age often means breaking as many labor laws as possible

advael• 4 years ago

If true, this means that the laws are toothless and should be enforced more stringently

NelsonMinar2• 4 years ago

Tesla has a pattern of breaking labor laws, partiuclarly when it comes to union organizing. Wikipedia has a list but only of resolved cases that are a couple years old or more: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/business/musk-labor-board...

Here's Tesla firing an employee for union organizing, which is illegal. Guest appearance by a Musk tweet which was also illegal: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/business/musk-labor-board...

Recently Tesla tried to ban pro-union t-shirts. That was illegal. (Also a bit hard to square with Musk's supposed free speech stand.) https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/29/tesla-ban-on-pro-union-shirt...

josephcsible• 4 years ago

Tesla tried to ban pro-union t-shirts.

That's a misleading way of putting it. It makes it sound like they said "you can wear whatever shirt you want except for pro-union ones", but what they really said was basically "you have to wear our uniform shirt".

bhickey• 4 years ago

That's a misleading way of putting it. Tesla said "you have to wear our uniform shirt [because you started wearing pro-union shirts]" and the NLRB told them to get stuffed.

SyzygistSix3• 4 years ago

I bet lots of large (and small) companies have a similar pattern. This was in a single location during a two month period. It could be Tesla as a whole or it could be one dumbass manager.

So much about this post and the article are misleading.

The shirt one was a ruling that was previously undecided. It is not like Tesla did something that was explicitly against the law; they were just ruled against. But the way this ruling has been described makes it sound like they are the evil Empire.

KyeRussell• 4 years ago

Why in 2023 do people continue to treat Tesla with kid gloves? One dumbass manager? Companies are merely collections of people, money, IP, and organisational inertia. How is “one dumbass manager” any sort of mitigation? We are fully within our rights to attribute the actions of an employee at a company, in service of their employment at said company, to the company itself. Unless of course this is all implicitly about defending the reputation of Elon Musk, which itself is cringeworthy.

willnonya• 4 years ago

It's not like the NLRB is some paragon of virtue.

subharmonicon• 4 years ago

Care to elaborate for those of us who aren’t aware of what you’re talking about?

NelsonMinar2• 4 years ago

I included the wrong link for Wikipedia and can no longer edit my comment. It's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lawsuits_involving_Tes...

tekdude• 4 years ago

In a previous role, during a performance review, my manager told me I had been awarded a small bonus, but also, "Don't discuss this with your coworkers, we don't do that here." I wasn't planning to, but at the same time I knew he probably shouldn't have said that... But, what can a low level employee do? There's essentially no non-losing move other than to shut up. Saying anything to anyone results in you being labeled a 'problem employee' with no further career prospects at that company as the best case, and quickly managed out at worst.

Volundr• 4 years ago

I actually suggested my VP go read the poster in the breakroom. It was not appreciated, but didn't cause me any real problems. That said we had a functioning HR department that I knew would be happy to explain the law to him, and I certainly don't claim that everyone could get away with this.

A more universal solution is file a complaint with your local Department of Labor (they can keep you anonymous), or if you have the funds, discuss it with a labor lawyer first.

SyzygistSix3• 4 years ago

It sounds like one Tesla location did this for one or two months. I wonder how many Tesla employees were involved in violating the law and if they are still employed.

And how many other companies have similar pending charges.

kibwen2• 4 years ago

Labor is, ostensibly, a market.

Markets must be reasonably efficient to be useful. An inefficient market is useless, or worse than useless.

A sufficient condition for an efficient market is price transparency.

Regardless of how you feel (or have been conditioned to feel) about disclosing your pay, if you want the market to work, then pay must be transparent.

indymike• 4 years ago

Telling people not to complain to managers about working conditions is beyond stupid. Managers should field those complaints, or they are flying blind.

Tesla broke labor laws by telling workers not to discuss pay, NLRB claims

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