Musk’s Boring Company Ghosts Cities Across America

https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-boring-company-tunnel-traffic-11669658396

by JumpCrisscross • 4 years ago

125 112 4 years ago

wsj.com

jncraton• 4 years ago

https://archive.ph/mMXqb

JumpCrisscross2• 4 years ago

Is there anything in the public evidencing the Boring Company advancing the state of the art for TBMs [1]?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_boring_machine

rexf• 4 years ago

How much of The Boring Company is an excuse to sell novelty branded merch? Such as the Not-a-flamethrower https://www.boringcompany.com/not-a-flamethrower

XorNot3• 4 years ago

I seriously doubt the merch raised remotely enough money to cover the cost of plant for a company like it.

ninth_ant• 4 years ago

Less than the amount it was to sabotage high-speed rail in California.

Robotbeat7• 4 years ago

I don’t know if there has been independent comparison of the faster tunneling speed, etc, but the ability of Prufrock to “porpoise” (directly launch) is an innovation that I can’t find any mention of in TBM before 2017. (But that could be because it goes by another name, I am no industry expert.) https://www.boringcompany.com/prufrock

I think the primary innovation is business plan, ie limit scope by only bidding on things like small diameter, simple requirements, etc. Avoid projects that would lengthy and expensive study, etc. Public works projects tend to be insanely expensive and part of it is due to continual scope creep, which brings in more stakeholders which further increases scope and cost… in a continuous cycle until the project is canceled or, miraculously, is finished at ten times the budget.

Which kind of answers the objections raised in these articles. If cities are unwilling or unable to allow scope to be constrained to the capabilities of TBC’s tunneling tech, why should TBC bid on the project? Why blame TBC for that?

In this way, this kind of scope discipline is more reminiscent of foreign tunneling projects.

But we’ll see. TBC has not completed many tunneling projects, and companies must ultimately be judged on the basis of their output (although for companies in growth and innovation mode, that can require patience).

JumpCrisscross2• 4 years ago

the primary innovation is business plan, ie limit scope by only bidding on things like small diameter, simple requirements, etc

Wouldn’t this imply bidding for utility tunnels first?

Not an expert. But I thought the Boring Company's pitch was designing a better TBM. If today’s TBMs are state of the art, the Boring Company is another general contractor.

ceejayoz2• 4 years ago

They don't quote anything specific, but they do mention the porpoising as already existing in the article:

Veterans of the tunneling industry note that tunnel-boring machines have been electrified for decades, and that neither continuous construction of the tunnel lining nor digging in from aboveground is new.

ecpottinger• 4 years ago

Exactly, in another forum someone was complaining the SpaceX was getting all the business and things should go back to the old rocket companies. For some reason he did not see the reason those companies was losing business was because they were not delivering results at a reasonable cost.

cycomanic3• 4 years ago

I think the primary innovation is business plan, ie limit scope by only bidding on things like small diameter, simple requirements, etc. Avoid projects that would lengthy and expensive study, etc. Public works projects tend to be insanely expensive and part of it is due to continual scope creep, which brings in more stakeholders which further increases scope and cost… in a continuous cycle until the project is canceled or, miraculously, is finished at ten times the budget.

Is there any documentation that this is the motivation? Why as detailed in the article does he then entice local governments by saying he can do it at an insanely low price and then never puts a bit in? Also in the article Musk said he could build the tunnel for $45M, but after the discussions with the city the price rose to $500M, so much for keeping costs in check.

Which kind of answers the objections raised in these articles. If cities are unwilling or unable to allow scope to be constrained to the capabilities of TBC’s tunneling tech, why should TBC bid on the project? Why blame TBC for that?

Again where is the evidence, for that claim? He got the local government to cancel the light rail project because he said he could build it for more than a factor 20-30 less, after discussions that became a factor 2-3 and then they didn't even bid?

But we’ll see. TBC has not completed many tunneling projects, and companies must ultimately be judged on the basis of their output (although for companies in growth and innovation mode, that can require patience).

Not many is quite an understatement. 2 is the actual number, one on the SpaceX property under some road (they actually cancelled a second planed one) and the Las Vegas one, which is probably the easiest case for tunnel boring.

nine_k• 4 years ago

«Boring’s only tunnel open to the public is a 1.6-mile “loop experience” under the Las Vegas Convention Center»

They need to get more exciting that that.

orangepurple2• 4 years ago

Make the tunnels only accessible to high power electric scooters and take off all speed limits.

Add fog machines to make the experience even more mysterious, scary, and exciting.

scythe2• 4 years ago

Nah, make it a powered zipline where you hook on off a platform and let go into a ballpit.

VHRanger2• 4 years ago

Putting trains in the tunnel would be pretty exciting!

Imagine how much more throughput you could get out of the system this way!

guepe• 4 years ago

Higher throughput with higher latency. I am not strongly opinionated about tbc, but I've seen many comparisons of Las Vegas loop results compared to bus/train. Sure throughput is lower. But latency is too! And users experience latency first.

It's an interesting trade-off. They hit the target throughput. Its done. What's not to love on this project?

sv123• 4 years ago

Was actually in Vegas recently and tried this out, was the first time I had heard about it. Pretty cool, fast and convenient, but I think much of that was due to no waiting because people didn't really know it existed. Not sure how efficient it would be to move people up and down the strip with lots of high demand.. Of course maybe more efficient than Ubers on the strip are currently.

justapassenger• 4 years ago

They don’t. Boring company served its purpose. Huge advertising for Tesla and Elon, helping to push their visionary/10 years ahead of competition narrative, at very little cost. And it all helped Elon become richest person in the world.

imchillyb• 4 years ago

The value of the Boring Company isn't in its consumer facing value.

Aarronn2• 4 years ago

Terrible article. So now this is somehow Musk's fault that regulators do not allow to build anything.

coffeeblack• 4 years ago

Hit piece. The corporate media is trying to force Musk in line with the Uniparty.

compiskey5• 4 years ago

Elon Musk’s existence does not give rise to reality. The knowledge and ability to do these things is not his alone as clearly he relies on a lot of workers.

If society should really do these things is not for him to dictate via Twitter.

7e• 4 years ago

Did you know that organized religions were invented to exploit gullible people like yourself? Today, politicians, propagandists and populists use the same honed techniques.

keyle• 4 years ago

I want to agree with you, but there is also the facet of a man that promised to build something cheaper and better, without doing his homework. Regulations don't just fall from the sky.

Aarronn2• 4 years ago

If nobody ever tries to build things which are physically possible but are likely to be blocked by regulators, we will never learn what the true constraint is. Most people around us believe that economic growth slowed down to near standstill due to some physical/technological constraints rather than was regulated away. We need more people like Musk who expose the truth that the regulations and bureaucracy are the largest problem the West has been facing for the last 40 years.

schiffern4• 4 years ago

  > a man that promised to build something cheaper and better

No such promise was made.

In fact, Musk explicitly went out of his way to say that he was not promising to build it himself.

He said — paraphrasing — "I'm too busy to do this and it might not even work, but maybe someone else can work on it and succeed, so I'm giving away the idea for free."

XorNot3• 4 years ago

Those regulations exist for a reason. If you dig tunnels underneath a city or town, you're liable to cause buildings to subside or collapse. This is not theoretical [1] - it happened in my city.

That it happened is not somehow an argument for paying less attention to tunnel digging projects either (the LCT was done at around peak "NSW government gives stupid handouts to private companies for our infrastructure").

[1] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2005-11-02/balcony-collapses-int...

mehlmao• 4 years ago

The article describes several projects that failed, including ones such as Maryland where permits and environmental review were completed and Boring did not perform the work.

acdha• 4 years ago

Regulators didn’t force Musk to walk back from the autonomous vehicles sales pitch to the conventional sort.

Regulators didn’t force Musk to claim advances which were already common in the field.

Regulators didn’t force Musk not to ask why everyone else charged more.

Regulators didn’t force Musk not to do any research about legal requirements.

There are valid questions about why American infrastructure projects cost so much more than the rest of the world but that doesn’t mean that Musk’s problems are the fault of anyone but him. He’s good at marketing but as we’ve seen he only turns a profit where he can get a government guarantee and has a team managing his instincts to avoid him screwing up that gravy train on a whim.

progrus• 4 years ago

Boring Company is obviously for the moon, it makes sense that it’s hard to fund with Big Dig-type projects, although it was a nice try.

smoyer• 4 years ago

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - "The Exciting Company"would be far more likely to finish something spectacular!

asdff2• 4 years ago

Duplicate thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33777962

sp332• 4 years ago

Didn't he already admit the project was just to make people rethink high-speed rail? He didn't plan to actually build any. https://mobile.twitter.com/parismarx/status/1167410460125097... (Just before the highlighted part)

acchow• 4 years ago

The quote from the book is "With any luck, the high-speed rail would be canceled. Musk said as much to me during a series of e-mails and phone calls"

They are paraphrasing Elon's intentions. And even the paraphrase sounds like HSR's cancellation would be some nice bonus on top of whatever Hyperloop is trying to achieve, not the primary goal.

rhaway847732• 4 years ago

Musk has admitted that he floated the hyperloop idea to get CA HSR cancelled. The only debate is whether he was well intentioned (trying to find a cheaper alternative to HSR…although it’s not clear hyperloop would achieve that) or if it was ill-intentioned (he hates public transit and clearly prefers a car focused future from which he would benefit personally).

Unfortunately, a lot of these efforts sound similar. And it looks like Musk has managed to do what he’s best at. Get even more government money directed towards his companies.

andbberger2• 4 years ago

it was very clearly ill-intentioned

onphonenow5• 4 years ago

The HSR folks have turned out to be wrong on almost every material element of CA hsr - from capital cost to schedule to operating cost to performance. I voted for the bond - but wow - hsr folks seem like a bunch of scammers at this point.

I think hyperloop was primarily motivated by his hated of HSR - his many complaints well documented- basically for the insane cost he felt it would end up at - something better could be done or tried

TaylorAlexander3• 4 years ago

The first Japanese Shinkansen train went over budget by 100%, but nobody remembers that anymore. Instead they talk about how wonderful the Shinkansen trains are.

Interstate I-69 costs more than CA HSR, has been plagued with problems, and has been under construction for more than 30 years and yet you don’t see the frothing negative coverage of that like you do CA HSR because in our country cars are normal and trains are the weird things we need to scrutinize to death.

This video is some nice coverage of this:

https://youtu.be/PwNthD-LRTQ

Robotbeat7• 4 years ago

Specifically, hatred for how terrible the CA HSR project was and frustration with traffic, not HSR in general.

cycomanic3• 4 years ago

The CA HSR is over budget, but we know at least that HSR is technologically possible in contrast to hyperloop (in fact there are many voices which say it's fundamentally not possible). So if the hsr folks are scammers what does that make the people proposing hyperloop?

largepeepee• 4 years ago

Is there a reason that he would do that since the HSR directly pulls cars off the highway and relieves congestion?

Do you have a link to him talking about the hyperloop X HSR cancellation discussion?

dragonwriter2• 4 years ago

Is there a reason that he would do that since the HSR directly pulls cars off the highway and relieves congestion?

Because he sells cars, so reducing demand for them is contrary to his interests (even if you believe his PR that he only is in the car business to develop tech abd raise money for Mars, losing the income stream hurts those interests.)

Do you have a link to him talking about the hyperloop X HSR cancellation discussion?

Its from communications with his biographer, and recorded in the biography:

https://twitter.com/parismarx/status/1167410460125097990?t=o...

schiffern4• 4 years ago

Musk has admitted

Can we cool it with the loaded language? What's wrong with "Musk said"?

Even at the time, in Musk's introduction he mentioned the massively delayed and over-budget (and slowest in the world and the most expensive per mile!) California HSR. There was never any attempt to hide his opposition, so it's no secret to 'admit.'

Musk was also open and honest about the fact that that he didn't know if Hyperloop would work, but that we should at least try to invent new and better technology over this worst-in-the-world status quo. I'm surprised to find disagreement on Hacker News of all places.

runarberg6• 4 years ago

I think most here on HN agree that ideas are cheap. I mean I have an old school project from 7th grade where I came up with the iPhone in the mid 90s, that’s how cheap ideas are. Hyperloop was never more then an idea (and not even a novel idea), and Elon Musk never took it further. So giving him any credit for it as an attempted invention is still giving him too much. Now that we know the reason for this idea, I think we can safely call it sinister.

oefrha2• 4 years ago

Officials had started planning for a street-level rail connection between booming Ontario International Airport and a commuter train station 4 miles away, with an estimated cost north of $1 billion.

Tangential but this is crazy. A cursory search tells me high speed rail cost US $17-21m per km in China and US $25-39m per km in Europe in 2014, according to World Bank.[1]

[1] https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2014/07/10/c...

photochemsyn2• 4 years ago

I'd guess that's a classic case of economies of scale, although inflated property costs and government corruption could also be playing a role. However, compare to China(wiki):

"The HSR network reached just under 38,000 km (24,000 mi) in total length by the end of 2020. The HSR building boom continues with the HSR network set to reach 70,000 km (43,000 mi) in 2035."

At that scale, costs per km would be expected to drop off on a steep curve, due to economies of scale, distribution of initial investment costs over more km of rail, etc.

masonic2• 4 years ago

... and China's more ruthless powers of Eminent Domain to acquire land

Matthias247• 4 years ago

It might not be fully comparable, since most kilometers of high speed rail will be on the countryside and not in the city. The construction costs in city centers are always much higher. E.g. "Stuttgart 21" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21) which is about redoing railway in the Stuttgart area is also in the billion € range, despite being less than 60km (> 150M€/km) - and the majority of the 10B€ for that will probably be spent on the less than 10km of tracks inside the city.

That said the Ontario cost certainly still feels high.

The ongoing construction of the new broadway extension for Vancouvers skytrain system is even more costly. They are also building around 4 miles, and the estimated cost is 3 billion CAD (https://www.infrastructurebc.com/projects/projects-under-con...).

kentonv• 4 years ago

US building costs are high, but I don't think this is a fair comparison. Ontario, California is part of the Los Angeles metro area. Building a new railway inside any already-developed metro area is obviously going to cost much more than building a railway in the open countryside. The cost also likely includes the stations at either end.

scythe2• 4 years ago

In Fort Lauderdale, Democratic Mayor Dean Trantalis is pointing to the availability of the funding as he tries to sell the public on a $100 million pair of Boring-built tunnels that would ferry beachgoers back and forth from downtown. Mr. Trantalis said that he was awe-struck by Boring’s Las Vegas project, which he toured last year.
North Miami Beach officials want to use federal infrastructure money to pay Boring for a tunnel project to reduce traffic.

You can't build underground in South Florida! It's a literal version of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swampland_in_Florida

cozzyd3• 4 years ago

Musk can use his submarine.

cozzyd3• 4 years ago

Recommended video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfVdge8DhB4

xracy2• 4 years ago

woooo CityNerd win.

theYipster• 4 years ago

Well, sir, there’s nothing on earth like a bonafide, electrified, six-car…

photochemsyn2• 4 years ago

America's infrastructure development programs are pretty pathetic compared to China's:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China

I'm not sure why Musk is the focus of this article either - isn't Warren Buffet & Berkshire-Hathaway the primary railroad owner in the USA today? Not exactly interested in upgrading the infrastructure or QoS on their own dime, are they?

asdff2• 4 years ago

@dang Is Algolia search delayed? Both this thread and the dupe at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33777962 don't show up in the search, with filters set to 1 week, sort set to popularity, and with trying the search terms "Musk" "Musk's" or "Boring"

Musk’s Boring Company Ghosts Cities Across America

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