France's senate votes that large parking lots have to be covered by solar panels

https://electrek.co/2022/11/08/france-require-parking-lots-be-covered-in-solar-panels/

by mfiguiere • 4 years ago

68 50 4 years ago

Wow. So many better, cheaper places to put solar panels than random parking lots.

E.g. next to town out on cheaper land in bulk connected to the grid efficiently with large power substations.

This idea that "Hey! It's flat over here! Lets paste some solar on it!" is not any Engineer's idea. It some kind of green-theatre in my view.

dmitri1981• 4 years ago

How so? Would love to get more info. I would have expected car parks to be a decent place for solar panels. Close to existing infrastructure, easy access, provides shade and no loss of habitat.

abawany• 4 years ago

Exactly. Most airport parking lots charge extra for covered parking - parking lots could continue charging the premium and also make money generating power. Sometimes the free market needs a swift kick up the backside to do the right thing, it seems. (edit: s/Mostly/Most)

JoeAltmaier6• 4 years ago

Close to power substations? Do they scale when you need more? Do we really want to mount our solar panels up on 20' poles? When it requires maintenance, do we shut down the parking lot?

It's clearly not optimal, not nearly.

Folks I know it's sad that every solar project that occurs to the layman, is not always a good idea. But don't blame the messenger.

rapsey• 4 years ago

Covering parking lots requires a scaffolding structure to hold the panels. The cost of this structure is probably higher than the panels.

A much better plan would be mandating all large building roofs to be covered by panels unless unsuitable. You could literally double the amount of panels for the same $$.

All the warehouses, shopping malls, government buildings and factories is a very large amount of space.

ars6• 4 years ago

It only works in places without much snow.

If you need the solar-roof to also support snow load it's way way way too expensive to build.

For places with snow load you either put them on an already strong roof, or on the ground.

alexfromapex• 4 years ago

I like this approach of integration, rather than hoping there's land somewhere remote enough. There's also a lot of loss of efficiency with having the power transferred from land outside of town.

JoeAltmaier6• 4 years ago

Transmission efficiency is negligible.

Look at google maps. Human habitation is a small part of the landscape in many places.

Solar farms are essentially portable - put them wherever they can be scaled, not interfere with existing infrastructure, convenient planned grid connection points at scale, and on and on.

No, this is not an Engineering solution. Folks latch onto this stuff as a sort of 1st-order plan. No, 0th order. With no thought beyond "Hey solar panels are flat; parking lots are flat!"

I reread the article. Seems that this is putting solar development on the public! No mention of govt assistance in buying/installing all this gear.

Are parking lots so profitable, they can support this significant cost? It seems a lazy law written by a lazy senate to get points in the press.

tamcap2• 4 years ago

Then you end up with a problem of clear cutting "useless woods" in order to install solar panels. While I don't think the French solution is flawless, it introduces an interesting dynamic.

Generally, I am against large surface lots (American style). So seeing someone introduce a simple incentive that both a) introduces a limit to their size AND b) offsets some of the blight for larger ones...

I am willing to see how well it works.

ars6• 4 years ago

Generally, I am against large surface lots (American style).

A bit of a tangent, but why? In my city they built a large shopping center without much parking, because that's what we do these days. Especially when the shopping center is basically next door to a large public transport hub.

The shopping center failed and declared bankruptcy after a few years. Main reason? No one went there because of lack of parking. (They did have some paid parking which everyone refused to use for shopping, but was instead used by people going on the public transport.)

jillesvangurp• 4 years ago

The challenge is finding land with owners rich enough to fund putting solar there. A lot of big parking lots are on land controlled by big supermarkets or other retail outlets. So, stimulating those to invest in some solar is not the worst idea. As opposed to some land in the middle of nowhere with no-one with enough of a vested interest to make the necessary investments.

Making it mandatory simply causes these companies to start finding cheaper ways to get it done. And of course they lower their energy cost so it's not a complete write off for them. And parking lots are of course where people charge their EVs. So there's that.

ars6• 4 years ago

with owners rich enough to fund putting solar there

If you need to be rich to fund solar you are doing it wrong.

Solar is meant to actually pay back money, not cost extra.

GuB-42• 4 years ago

In France, if it is flat, there is usually something there you don't want to remove, like buildings, crops, or a forest. It is not like the US where there are huge deserts with plenty of sunlight. Population density is 4 times higher.

On top of parking lot is one of the best place to put solar panels: shade and cover for the cars, easy access to the grid, and it is essentially free space. Probably a bit more expensive than in an open field but not by much.

JoeAltmaier6• 4 years ago

It takes not much room at all to create a solar farm. A section of land perhaps. I see from Google Maps that many plots clear of construction surround Paris for instance, at a distance of a few miles.

mcv2• 4 years ago

Parking lots sound like an excellent place for solar panels to me, because they suddenly serve a second function: keeping the cars cool. On a hot day, people prefer to park in the shade for good reason, and this way, there's plenty of share on the parking lot.

Furthermore, parking lots are easily accessible for construction and maintenance, and it doesn't hurt any other use of the land. It's pretty much perfect. I'd say this is second only to rooftop solar as easy win for solar. And in some cases better than rooftop solar.

chucksta• 4 years ago

Also the added benefit of reducing heat soak for the parking surface too

gumby• 4 years ago

E.g. next to town out on cheaper land in bulk connected to the grid efficiently with large power substations.

Big box shops and malls typically have a close substation already.

JoeAltmaier6• 4 years ago

So there are only half a dozen more significant objections.

No, this is virtue signally at it's finest.

exabrial• 4 years ago

"I expect a large increase in parking lots that hold less than 79 cars." -another hn commenter

mantas• 4 years ago

* less than 80 cars

dang2• 4 years ago

Let's give credit to geocrasher: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33532383

francisofascii• 4 years ago

Well, maybe disincentivizing large parking lots is a good thing.

ethagknight• 4 years ago

I was thinking more along the lines of "My 300 car lot just became 4x 75 car lots!"

But I get it, it's a matter critical national economic security. I cannot think of an easier way for the government to massively ramp up energy resources without comparable ramp up in (government) budget. Offsetting a big chunk of power demand, even if that power isn't always when and where you need it, moves the needle big time.

If you have a large parking lot, you probably have a nearby large power demand, therefore you must throw some panels up ASAP. I would love to see this approach in a smaller format for the US. X sf of taxable retail space requires Y kWs of on-site solar capacity by end of 2023 to avoid an Alternate Energy Resource Fee. Start low, targeting 2% coverage of a typical suburban retail parking lot.

keithnz• 4 years ago

I would expect the government happily reduces the count limit to 70 in response

macinjosh4• 4 years ago

Big win for dogs who get locked in the car too.

ouid• 4 years ago

I think solar cells get pretty hot. They're not very efficient, and they basically have exactly the smallest albedo they can have, so it's a pretty hot thing to make a roof out of. Hopefully they insulate the backsides of them.

omg_ponies• 4 years ago

A vehicle under direct sun will get hotter than if it's under a roof made of solar panels. Insulating the underside of the panels will reduce their lifespan.

twelvedogs• 4 years ago

tin works pretty well and it's a pretty hot thing to make a roof out of, having an air gap between your car and the heat source makes a massive difference rather than it being heated directly

macinjosh4• 4 years ago

I foresee big box stores constructing 4 isolated parking lots, one on each side of the store instead of one big one. The land for each one could even be owned by separate shell corps if needed. That would still be cheaper, less maintenance, and they don't have to worry about customers with tall vehicles.

They should be giving incentives for people to do this not beat them over the head with it.

kranke155• 4 years ago

France is not like the US. Trying to do this will get you in trouble.

macinjosh4• 4 years ago

I never mentioned France nor the US in my comment. Clearly this sort of thing is a trend and will be tried everywhere. That is what I was talking about.

euroderf• 4 years ago

The lengths people will go to to resist doing The Right Thing (TM).

dang2• 4 years ago

Related ongoing thread:

French senate: parking lots for 80 cars must be covered by solar panels - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33532260 - Nov 2022 (97 comments)

ankaAr2• 4 years ago

What about parking lots with buildings on top?

And what about parking lots surrounding by buildings?

6stringmerc• 4 years ago

And what about the MOON? What are we gonna do about parking up there?! There are no rules! Mon dieu zoot alors!

ankaAr2• 4 years ago

I don't know about the moon.

I was thinking about parking lots that are already working and have a building or construction on top, that is not own by the same people. It is called here a garage and very common.

And the other question is about a parking lot surrounded by building that must to cover the lot with solar panels to get few minutes of sunlight.

I don't care about the moon

France's senate votes that large parking lots have to be covered by solar panels

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