FCC commissioner says government should ban TikTok

https://www.axios.com/2022/11/01/interview-fcc-commissioner-says-government-should-ban-tiktok

by Amorymeltzer • 4 years ago

81 112 4 years ago

emkoemko10• 4 years ago

i agree, plus China doesn't play by the same rules they ban a endless list of sites/apps from outside of China then copy the product to be used and profited from inside China and out..

csdvrx3• 4 years ago

IDK, I'm old school so I think the government shouldn't restrict free speech even when it really doesn't like what said free speech allows.

emkoemko10• 4 years ago

it should protect its companies when a foreign country is ripping them off globally no?

alphabetting• 4 years ago

this is less a free speech issue than a security issue

josephcsible• 4 years ago

Maybe a reciprocity rule is what we need: ban foreign companies from operating in the US whenever an equivalent US company wouldn't be allowed to do the exact same thing in the foreign country.

emkoemko10• 4 years ago

yes exactly, never understood why we allowed this to happen look at how strict they are with even simple business trying to open in China you basically have to give them all your proprietary info before they allow you to partly own your own business in China.. You can't even invest into Chinese stocks... they play by their own rules to benefit them self's and we allow them to do so

csdvrx3• 4 years ago

Civil servant thinks the government should expand its overreach and create new regulations + agencies + jobs for civil servants, even when it goes against the constitution, news at 11.

emkoemko10• 4 years ago

how is it fine that the US allows every Chinese site/app to operate and profit from outside China while China banns everything outside China internally and just copies the banned product to profit from inside and out? we should of never allowed this behaviour

sahila2• 4 years ago

How is it fine that we allow freedom when another country restricts freedom - is that your question? Should we also be against Uighurs like they are in China?

I don't think we should bow down to the lowest denominator and instead still appeal to what's best for all people.

dylan6043• 4 years ago

I love the scene from Silicon Valley for this:

Jared: Jian Yang, are you copying all of those companies?

Jian Yang: Oh, no. <whiteboard behind him shows "New Reddit", "New Snapchat", "New Facebook" etc>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km5XQxRrQvw

whatshisface• 4 years ago

Our government can't ban Chinese companies from selling products, it can only ban its own citizens from buying them.

cool_dude85• 4 years ago

Who's copying who on tiktok? Look at ig now compared to 2-3 years ago.

mc322• 4 years ago

TikTok is the new anodyne entertainment that is worse for youth than stale TV was for previous generations because it encourages harmful behavior. If it were only the time wasting aspect it would not be so bad --the bad part is propagating harmful behavior to unrealized adults, specifically wrong self-help information.

vkou3• 4 years ago

You are making an excellent argument for also banning TV.

A4ET8a8uTh03• 4 years ago

Eh, how is that behavior any different than previous iterations of planking? It is not. The only real difference is that it puts control of a majority of social media young people use in the hands of a foreign power. When FB et al were doing the same thing ( with same access ), it was all great.

I have no love for social media, but that ban starts at home AND if we accept the proposition that TikTok should be banned, we should be doing the same with FB and its derivatives. For the record, I am all for it ( as long as we apply this idiocy evenly and across the board ).

edit: added and across the board

JumpCrisscross3• 4 years ago

only real difference is that it puts control of a majority of social media young people use in the hands of a foreign power

An adversary. Different discussion. National security versus public health / competition. We don't need to justify enforcement on Tik Tok against our lenience with Facebook because they're separate conversations.

To my knowledge, regulators haven't raised anti-trust concerns with Tik Tok the way they have with Facebook. And nobody has taken the public-health mantel when it comes to social media.

nemothekid• 4 years ago

This criticism is valid; however they are not banning TikTok for this reason. Once TikTok is banned that anodyne entertainment will simply just move to Instagram.

dvngnt_• 4 years ago

citation needed

colechristensen3• 4 years ago

Every generation has its hysterics about the thing ruining the children. No matter how much you ban things, teenagers aren’t going to have the mindset of people in their 30s, but for some reason some folks just can’t see this and will keep trying over and over and over. TikTok, Rap, MTV, Rock Music, Jazz, marijuana… etc. etc. etc. are not the reason your teenager doesn’t think like you.

mc322• 4 years ago

Yes and no.

If we used the logic you used above, then the FDA should not function as it does today and we should allow "snakeoil" and elixirs to be marketed because, you know, people can decide for themselves. [yes I understand the loophole of "herbal medicines"]

Let teenagers publish but don't trend the things that lead to unwitting self-harm.

_chu1• 4 years ago

Rap, MTV, Rock, Jazz, even marijuana wasn't controlled by Communist China

bishnu• 4 years ago

How would this even work? Get it out of the app stores, fine. But presumably the URL would still be accessible? Likewise sideloading it onto Android devices?

derac• 4 years ago

That would decimate engagement, so it accomplishes the goal.

emkoemko10• 4 years ago

just do it like China... this is silly that we allow China to block everything while we are happy to allow them to use our market...

vkou3• 4 years ago

So, the thing about championing free speech and free trade is that you also need to allow speech and trade that doesn't benefit you.

If you're interested in giving up America's commitment to either, that's fine, but I'd like to have some say in what other forms of speech and trade are silly to allow.

dylan6043• 4 years ago

Clearly, the FCC will have to "Build That Wall!!!"

A4ET8a8uTh03• 4 years ago

Well, not to search very far, but OFAC could simply forbid US persons from interacting with TikTok and its subsidiaries. It would send shock waves through the system, but it can be done.

You can then still sideload stuff, but you are immediately in a violation of OFAC. Naturally, I doubt even US government would be stupid enough to open that particular pandora's box.

legitster4• 4 years ago

I would assume TikTok relies on purchasing US based services (server space, ads, etc).

The US issuing the equivalent of "do not honor checks from TikTok, LLC" would be enough to throttle them out of existence in the US.

retrac• 4 years ago

Go after the $ side of it. If it's illegal for US companies to advertise on TikTok, it'll be dead in that market overnight, regardless of app store availability.

InitialBP• 4 years ago

If you removed it from the app stores, a humungous percentage of people would no longer install the app. There will certainly be some tech literate folks who do so, but most people have very little tolerance for technical challenges outside of the norm and would stop at, it's not in the app store anymore.

nicolashahn7• 4 years ago

Maybe. For Android it's very easy to sideload, just share a link for an APK download and then open it. Easy and quick enough for even a TikTok-addled ADD brain to do.

advisedwang2• 4 years ago

As always, remember that there are several FCC commissioners. When you see a headline about one commissioner, you aren't seeing the FCC decide something, you are seeing the politics within the FCC play out.

In fact statements like this typically mean the opinion given is not the overall direction of the FCC, because if it was a majority opinion they wouldn't need to be playing to the media and would just be enacting their will.

teepo2• 4 years ago

Well in this case I don't think the FCC has the authority to block it. They can recommend lawmakers do something.

But this begs the question of if this point of view is based on oversight of the recommendation algorithm, is it limited to those developed by foreign owned platforms?

dontbenebby• 4 years ago

As always, remember that there are several FCC commissioners

Do they vote along party lines too?

I know at the FTC under obama, anything BCP the GOP would oppose.

(It seemed extremely weird since up until that point the people who'd be the most civil had been the libertarians, an awkward alliance since the millenials have all known since middle school that money is just pieces of paper.)

It's a shame the French or whatever decriminalized espionage and renamed it "business intelligence" in the 90s, or we could just start threatening to execute these people for espionage or something when they get too ornery.

kodah• 4 years ago

It can be. The Obama and Trump administrations definitely installed captive individuals. Appointment can, and probably should be, taken away. We don't need an FCC that flies by the whims of an administration. There's a lot of agencies that statement applies to though. The downside of such a take is that agencies are inherently derivative of the powers Congress gives them, so offering the president appointments is really their attempt to balance power between the branches.

The real root cause is that presidents are often working hand in hand with Congress and who is really shut out is the people because Congress, regardless of the party in power, often does not reflect the will of the people.

Also, kinda odd you're daydreaming about lobbing people's heads off. Maybe don't do that.

RadixDLT• 4 years ago

just in time for vine reboot

teepo2• 4 years ago

So the main issues are leaking private data to Chinese authorities and the risk of foreign manipulation of the recommendation algorithm. -Does this somehow become a blueprint for oversight, in this case Oracle, of these algorithms for other social media platforms? And who wants to trust Oracle to do this?

Ekaros• 4 years ago

I think government should ban Facebook and Twitter to start with. Much bigger problems there.

emkoemko10• 4 years ago

China did like a decade ago but you can use CCP approved social media

notright5• 4 years ago

Only media approved by the Democrat Party is free of hate speech and white nationalism

throw_m239339• 4 years ago

I think government should ban Facebook and Twitter to start with. Much bigger problems there.

Twitter and Facebook are just an extension of the executive branch of the US government.

https://theintercept.com/2022/10/31/social-media-disinformat...

So is Tiktok in relation to the PRC.

In that sense none of these companies are "private, independent companies".

kibwen4• 4 years ago

Just like last time this came up, what actual law is the executive branch accusing TikTok of breaking? I'm no fan of TikTok nor of the CCP and its asymmetric corporate warfare, but the executive branch must not be allowed to invent its own laws.

creato• 4 years ago

Many imports are banned or heavily tariffed at the whim of the executive branch, I don’t see how this is any different.

kibwen4• 4 years ago

Can you give an example? Sanctions against a country or a particular industry are not the same category as "fuck this one company in particular".

Overtonwindow2• 4 years ago

They could put a tariff on TikTok.

JumpCrisscross3• 4 years ago

what actual law is the executive branch accusing TikTok of breaking?

The last time this came up there was none [1]. Commissioner Carr's interview appears to be him asking the Congress for such statute.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TikTok_v._Trump

nicolashahn7• 4 years ago

I think preventing the CCP from accessing private data of American citizens probably falls under normal statecraft actions

kibwen4• 4 years ago

Agreed, and "espionage" is a fine answer, but that raises the question of why they haven't gone as far as explicitly saying "espionage".

ajsnigrutin• 4 years ago

It's funny how when some other country blocks access to eg. facebook, we're immediately talking about how undemocratic that is, how people should protest, etc.

I'm not sure what data exactly tiktok collects, but i'm pretty sure it's not a lot more than what facebook does.

pasquinelli6• 4 years ago

what private data are they getting? the data american citizens publish on tiktok?

bergenty• 4 years ago

It’s from China and involved with the CCP, I think that’s reason enough.

legitster4• 4 years ago

This is a weird example where we are handing our adversaries something, and they are quietly stockpiling it. And we have no idea what they are doing with it, but it's just kind a weirding out our foreign policy experts.

trunnell5• 4 years ago

The executive branch is responsible for foreign policy and national security.

This issue is about a hostile foreign government being in a position to manipulate the internal communications and political debate in the US. So it's more in the realm of foreign policy and national security rather than US corporate law.

(Surprising to see this comment downvoted - why?)

advisedwang2• 4 years ago

The executive branch is responsible for foreign policy and national security.

That doesn't mean they can or should have power to ban any company, communication or program just because of a vague and weak phrase of national security.

By similar logic they should be able to just lock up foreign citizens because they might be doing something nefarious for their states. No --- this is what rights are for, and the rule of law still applies.

HWR_14• 4 years ago

This is not a claim they are breaking the law. This is publicly asking Congress to change the law.

Rapzid• 4 years ago

must not be allowed to invent its own laws

Well actually; Delegation of Legislative Power.

tptacek• 4 years ago

Brendan Carr is the senior Republican FCC commissioner, for whatever that's worth.

abeppu• 4 years ago

I think we should separate the concerns being raised:

- If the FCC is concerned with how user data is handled, great! But instead of ad-hoc bans on specific companies, let's introduce some rules or laws which apply across the board. This both removes the appearance of a targeted and capricious ban on a Chinese company (which this seems like), and set clear rules of the road going forward.

- If the FCC is concerned with non-transparent manipulation of political speech or pushing perspectives preferred by foreign governments, that's great! It's a little weird and late to focus on China given that it seems we haven't really addressed the documented Russian interference, but sure. Again, let's have a somewhat more systematic approach than just 'ban TikTok', because of course there will be other avenues.

warbler73• 4 years ago

OK, and then which services are next? A lot.

legitster4• 4 years ago

The whole emergence of TikTok in the US was an almost hilariously slow moving policy crisis. We know it's nefarious, but no one has really figured out a coherent reason of why.

Like, even before it really took off in the states you could read reports of this highly addictive, nefarious platform that the CCP had their fingers all over getting ready to be bottled up and shipped over to the US.

So now that it's here, we've poked and prodded enough to go "yep, that's a Trojan horse all right". But we still don't know what it's for.

Is it meant to push subtle CCP talking points and propaganda? Is this a ruse designed to find and track dissidents? Track rising nascent millennial trends? Lure in important officials to capture or intercept their media habits?

And it could just be a vanity project by high ranking CCP members - showing the West that they can develop technology.

sosodev• 4 years ago

Do we know it's nefarious? I don't think we've seen any proof or as you pointed out we would know why

dontreact• 4 years ago

There have been repeated reports of negative outcomes as a result of TikTok trends. There have been investigations into the amount of information the app collects and it is far beyond what other apps do (all without user consent). The app is clearly highly addictive.

What sorts of proof would convince you that this is an addictive app that is causing harm?

legitster4• 4 years ago

That's the thing - we don't know. But there are some very high level endorsements for the whole thing from within the CCP despite the whole venture being not particularly profitable.

pasquinelli6• 4 years ago

no, "we" certainly do "know" it's nefarious. which isn't to say it actually is. understand that we're in the early stages of a new red scare, so china has gone from an important partner to an adversary to hostile, and now it's the enemy in some circles. so now everything china does is nefarious.

it reminds me of this event: https://www.nytimes.com/1950/08/15/archives/dock-workers-ref...

personally, i don't think there will be much success whipping up a new red scare. people are too checked out. though maybe i'm just hoping.

Overtonwindow2• 4 years ago

This is so asinine. If you ban TikTok, another one will just be created in its place.

Quillbert182• 4 years ago

I think the hope is that the replacement is not Chinese.

trunnell5• 4 years ago

Duh.

No reasonable adult (in any country) would go on the record to propose that a hostile foreign government should run any part of their internal communication infrastructure. It's well documented that all companies in China are beholden to the political whims of the Chinese Communist Party; when national security is at issue, Chinese companies and the Chinese government are one entity, sadly.

I'm squinting skeptically at all the comments here that are confused about this, especially the ones with extra helpings of carefully chosen rhetoric (whatabout-ism, free speech, free markets, etc). There are no "free speech" issues here, ByteDance is a foreign company, not a US person. This is a national security issue.

If you think it's cool to allow TikTok in Western countries, please explain why it would have been fine to allow the Nazis to run the Royal Mail, the US Postal Service, and one third of the broadcasting services in the 1930s. Would that have been a "free speech" or "free market" issue?

The Chinese government has a long way to go to earn the trust of other countries.

See this list of common Chinese propaganda themes to check if they may have already influenced you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_in_China#Common_CCP...

colechristensen3• 4 years ago

Comparing tiktok to the post office circa 1940 is… an odd choice.

Tiktok is more like a foreign power owning playboy and mad magazine. People making dumb videos for a laugh isn’t critical communications infrastructure it’s entertainment. Banning ZTE and Huawei makes sense… but if your culture and infrastructure is so sensitive that Chinese ownership of dumb entertainment is a threat… you’ve really already lost.

If tiktok as foreign spyware is a problem, ban the mechanisms of surveillance, everyone does it and it’s not only a problem when China is in control of the data.

trunnell5• 4 years ago

People underestimate the power of TikTok to influence opinion.

Strangely, TikTok makes up a large part of the "information diet" for a lot of people. It's tough to find a great analog from 1930, but I think the postal service analogy is in the ballpark.

kevinventullo2• 4 years ago

My TikTok feed is mostly stand up comics and absurd sketches from American 20-somethings. I think characterizing TT as “internal communication infrastructure” is a massive stretch.

That said, I could see the argument that what TT chooses to censor or uprank is a kind of soft power that could influence American attitudes over time. But I’m not sure this is any more significant than say, Chinese influence on what Disney chooses to include or not include in their films.

trunnell5• 4 years ago

Right - it's complicated and nuanced. Some Disney censorship is probably benign, right? This is the argument made by the crowd urging inaction.

Consider the recent example of John Cena, an actor in the "Fast and Furious" franchise, apologizing to China for calling Taiwan a country. Is that apology good, bad, or irrelevant? Probably irrelevant by itself, I'd say.

But what about China's ability to coerce John Cena into making that apology? This is more akin to the problem you might see on TikTok. Influential people that others look up to parroting Chinese propaganda, wittingly or unwittingly.

It doesn't require much imagination to see the problem. If China secretly coerced 10 famous actors to say, "the US should leave Taiwan to China," and those videos had >100 million views in the US, that could be a very successful influence operation. TikTok could be a means of distribution for that kind of thing.

Workaccount22• 4 years ago

I can't wait until China invades Taiwan and their is a statistically significant shift of gen-z support for Chinese imperialism, or more likely, support of american isolationism.

pasquinelli6• 4 years ago

or more likely, support of american isolationism.

we can only hope.

pasquinelli6• 4 years ago

No reasonable adult (in any country) would go on the record to propose that a hostile foreign government should run their internal communication infrastructure.

frankly, calling tiktok internal communications infrastructure is idiotic.

bern44442• 4 years ago

Couldn't agree more.

Lots of responses about 'I only see funny comedians' or 'Tik Tok is only about dumb entertaining videos', etc.

This misses the forest through the trees. The dumb videos are the mechanism through which a foreign and often hostile world power is able to create a profile on millions of americans and learn everything about them.

All this data is fed back into other Chinese government groups and organizations which leverage it to determine how to best spread divisiveness, propaganda, misinformation and more through all the other platforms (FB, Twitter, News, etc).

The funny videos is the honey pot trap to collect all the data to create profiles, it may or may not be the primary way the Chinese government then uses that information to influence or nudge people but it informs and empowers all of that.

Also, TikTok's algorithm is specific and targeted. Just because your feed is only funny videos doesn't mean everyone else's are too. Even if everyone in your 'group' sees the same funny videos, there are many other groups that have entirely different feeds and many other variants.

This has nothing to do with free speech, no one is saying you can't say this but not that on TikTok. This is about the existence and allowance of it in the first place. Plenty of other forums for the speech.

I wonder how people would react to this issue if TikTok had come from Iran or North Korea rather than China.

trunnell5• 4 years ago

You're right, this is probably the main problem (rather than the ability to change the content on TikTok.)

So you're implying that their future influence operations could be enhanced and better targeted by using profile-level viewing history on TikTok, similar to how Cambridge Analytica used FB profile data to target political advertising?

archagon• 4 years ago

How do you ban TikTok if they broke no law? If they’re kicked off all the app stores, they’ll just live on the web. If they’re not allowed to do business in the US, they’ll serve content for free, if their aim is indeed data gathering.

xnx• 4 years ago

This guy's personal campaign against TikTok has had at least 13 posts on HN already: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=tru...

elforce002• 4 years ago

This will be a God send for Facebook. Reels will thrive if TikTok gets banned.

If they're going to ban TikTok, why stop there? Just purge it from app/play stores globally and problem solved.

FCC commissioner says government should ban TikTok

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