From Prison to Programming

https://corecursive.com/prison-programming-with-rick-wolter/

147 116 4 years ago

This is the story of how Rick Wolter learned to program in prison and ultimately became a professional iOS developer.

I figure any story that involves smuggling a python interpreter into prison on a USB stick seems like it might interest people here.

But I think its also an important story because it’s about how software development can be life changing and lift people up out of hard situations.

adamgordonbell2• 4 years ago

Oh, also Rick has some of the most practical advice on learning programming, and transition to a professional dev that I've seen.

     I know it’s not popular to just talk about grinding, the overwork culture is not popular. I get that, this is a different space. You want this shit? You got to grind. You’re going to have to do it on the weekends, you’re going to have to lock in. I’m sure someone’s going to be like, “Oh, no you don’t. I don’t have to. don’t put that pressure on them,” that’s fine. But to me, when you come from a background, especially if you’re a felon, but even if you’re not a felon, you don’t have a college that’s going to give you any kind of signal.

    Everyone talks about the college debt but your local community college isn’t that expensive. And then, that way, maybe you could just cut your work down to 10, 20 hours and then spend the rest of time coding.

    You focus on fundamentals first. Data structures, control flow, that kind of thing and stick to that for a short period of time. Maybe a month, month and a half, just do that basic stuff. It’s not popular, people want to see things on their screen, they want to say they built a thing but you’ve got to get those fundamentals first and there’s so many free options, Coursera, freeCodeCamp. And then, once you get some fundamentals, then you can decide on the platform.

    And once you pick your platform, just focus and stick to it. If you’re building Ruby on Rails, do that every day but make sure you’re building it. Hands on the keyboard, watch a tutorial then do the tutorial again but change some things then try to recreate what you built in the tutorial while not looking, that kind of thing. Because that’s the main thing is getting your skills up.

chrisbrandow• 4 years ago

I have tried to summarize my advice as a mid career person who switched to programming. iOS. Rick has done so more perfectly than I have ever been able to. I highly endorse his comments here.

kodah2• 4 years ago

This is solid advice for anyone coming here without a degree. I say that because it mostly summarizes what I feel made me successful.

daniel-cussen• 4 years ago

So I was talking to a cop, because I do in fact talk to cops all the time, talked about prison, like convicts pretending to be sick for a bit, I told him that's like their vacation. Then escape came up, Marshal Service came up. I told him, dude rather stay right in my cell than being hunted by the Marshal Service.

Dude like Wyatt Earp? The only escape from Wyatt Earp, the only safe harbor, the real place you can go, is stay right where you are, in your cell.

So this is a sick hack, that's exactly what this forum is about.

Hacker News.

jmclnx• 4 years ago

I know a few people who were in prison, some for serious crimes.

Based upon my very unscientific sample, many of these guys were pretty smart. It makes me wonder how their environment in school (peers and/or teachers) along with social pressure put some of them on that path.

I hear if smart people are not engaged in classes, they get bored rather quickly and start doing poorly.

When I was young, I remember many times teachers would focus on the kids having a hard time learning, which is understandable. But some of the smarter kids may decide "why bother" when not given attention they may crave.

soulofmischief2• 4 years ago

For me it had nothing to do with attention... if you let me read my books quietly in class while you're wasting my time with a lecture I can absorb in two minutes at home, we don't have a problem. I'll show up and pass your test.

Most of my teachers understood this and got out of my way. The ones who didn't understand caused me no end of problems in their attempts to force me to conform to expectations I never signed off on. I was the smartest (read: just the most motivated) kid at most of the schools I went to and also among the most frequently written up, punished or suspended.

I had a reputation for getting sent to the office at least once every two weeks, inevitably due to some form of "willful disobedience", which was just me refusing to buckle to any perceived narcissism or institutional coercion foisted upon me. Authority figures either hated that they could not control me, or warmly accepted that if they just left me alone I would pass their stupid tests with flying colors.

It wasn't until my last two years of high school, when I was homeless and attending on my own cognizance, that teachers finally backed the fuck off and realized what they were dealing with. Except a single teacher. My transcripts were illegally altered by a teacher who felt that she had to "win" against me, and ultimately caused me 10 years of economic hardship after high school. I passed every class, had the highest test scores. and she still found a way to rob me of the multiple full-ride scholarship opportunities I had received for several engineering colleges, just to put a boot down on my face one last time on my way out. This was substantial enough to sue the school department over, but when you're homeless and your parents are drug addicts, you don't get these opportunities.

This is what an under-stimulated individual with no support structure looks like. And I felt the concerted institutional effort every single step of the way to push me down and grind me into submission, to teach me I was a criminal for thinking for myself. I have a much more tolerant view of many forms of criminal behavior because of this experience and that is no accident.

erdos4d4• 4 years ago

And I felt the concerted institutional effort every single step of the way to push me down and grind me into submission, to teach me I was a criminal for thinking for myself.

I so relate to this. The people who run schools honestly believe that they are the one true way in society and if you aren't square with them, you are literally on a criminal path. You don't believe their values? Complete anti-social. Don't find their facts fun to regurgitate on command? Clearly an idiot. These people really are brainwashed in this way and that kids get forced through that system is a tragedy.

Mezzie• 4 years ago

I've dabbled in "gray" things but never anything that would get me sent to prison (I lack the risk tolerance), but in case, I turned to that kind of work because playing by the rules (at the time) got me nowhere. At the time, I was reliant on Medicaid to manage my progressive illness (MS) and was limited to earning ~1k a month.

Which obviously wasn't enough to live on, so I started bartering and doing work under the table. The safest kind of under the table work is work where if it's discovered, everybody involved would be 'in trouble'. That way everybody has an incentive to Shut The Fuck Up.

If you put smart people into corners, they're going to find ways outside of the system to prosper.

Edit: Also, if you have the right skills, you can make BANK, especially since you don't pay taxes on illicit income. I at one point made ~$100/hr, and I wasn't doing anything illegal.

buf4• 4 years ago

I've also been to prison.

My story is homeless at 20, no friends or family, in debt about $20k and just got out of prison as a convicted felon.

Now I've built 2.5 unicorns, one of which I helped start. Right now, I've started two side projects that are nearing the $1M ARR (combined).

Programming is a great leveler in today's world. I cannot express how lucky I am to have found it early in my life.

I have a great desire to give back, and somehow fix recidivism in the USA, but it feels so unreachable. I've heard that 70M Jobs was shutting down, and I reached out to the owner, but he brushed me off in an email. At some point, I'd like to give it a real shot.

JohnCurran2• 4 years ago

If you want to give back, consider hiring from the organization Rick (subject of the podcast) started - Underdog Devs.

It’s a loosely collected group of mentors and mentees with a small dedicated group of full-time learners on a stipend program

The #1 challenge, by far, faced by the org is hiring and placement into companies for cohort graduates and mentees.

If you’re able, consider posting job listings in the UD slack

https://www.underdogdevs.org/

*I am part of the group as a mentor and its been on the whole an incredibly positive experience

buf4• 4 years ago

I'm in. Just DMed the UD twitter account to get an invite into the slack group.

thrownaway561• 4 years ago

right here... hire convicted felons. go to the nearest prison and work with inmates there that are getting out in a year to teach them programming or whatever position you need filled so when they get out they have a job and the confidence to keep that job.

ravenstine2• 4 years ago

That is an amazing story! I'm glad you made it out and have found a kind of success many ex convicts don't find.

I never went to prison, but similarly, I'm not sure the person I was before my software career would have faired well if programming wasn't an option. It's such a practical skill that not only can be learned for free but is lucrative and opens all sorts of doors for people to be entrepreneurs.

I hate to be one of those "learn to code" people, but sometimes it is hard for me not to evangelize. I'm of the opinion that a successful career in coding doesn't require the kind of genius intelligence that many, including a lot of HNers, think it does. Mindset is way more important than IQ, and writing "good" code isn't even that high of importance most of the time. More people can get into it than they think, and some of them should before the inevitable day that a hypothetical GPT algorithm can do everything a current day mid-level software engineer can.

buf4• 4 years ago

I believe there are fewer and fewer "American Dream" jobs, to where you can start from nothing and emerge financially independent with a decent retirement (e.g. doctors, lawyers, programming).

Convicts really only have a few realistic options

1. Programming 2. Starting their own business

stackbutterflow2• 4 years ago

Being a good enough developer to build a career in this field doesn't require a high IQ but it does require a special kind of mindset as you said.

I also used to think that everyone could learn to code but I came to realize that this mindset can't be learned. Some people maybe discover that they have this mindset later in life and that's why learn to code is still a useful piece of advice because it'll reach them but once you've tapped into the fixed % of the population that do have this mindset you can't expand it more.

It's not to say others are doomed, there are other mindsets that exists for every professions. Maybe some of them can become great PMs or great small business owners or accountants. But coding is out of reach for a large portion of the population just like developers tend to be very poor salespeople and couldn't "learn to sale" if their income relied on it.

alexashka• 4 years ago

I have a great desire to give back, and somehow fix recidivism in the USA, but it feels so unreachable

10% of families account for 66% of criminals [0].

I don't know why people call it recidivism. It's family values.

[0] https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/10/crime-run...

deeg• 4 years ago

Ex-cons have a tough time getting jobs and this can help lead to recidivism. It seems like programming would be a great way to keep felons from going back to prison. Getting paid to WFH on an open source project would be low risk.

paulpauper4• 4 years ago

most people have a tough time getting goods jobs. it's not uncommon for many people to apply some a single mid-salary opening.

lostboomerang4• 4 years ago

Rick Wolter seems to be quite balanced. Read the last paragraph "Life’s Not Fair".

Problem is that some people read his story and thinks. "Oh, so teaching felons programming is a great way to reduce recidivism".

This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard could it be?

When media corporations started laying off journalists in droves a few years later, the journalists did not find "Learn to code" suggestions useful or even funny.

A more general solution to reduce recidivism should probably consist of two initiatives:

1) Educate felons when they're in prison. It doesn't have to be programming. It can be a craft, something academic, programming (if they feel like it) or some other skill. Whatever.

2) Reform the prison system, so inmates are treated as humans. E.g. with private corporations running prisons in the US, they have a strong motivation to create "recurring guests". Contrast this with e.g. prisons in Scandinavia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IepJqxRCZY) that have the lowest rates of recidivism.

We know how to reduce recidivism. It is not an easy "learn to code" exercise. But are the US willing to make the changes necessary to create meaningful impact on the rates of recidivism - or shall we continue to be fed "pull yourself up by the bootstraps! We found one guy who did it, and so can you!" stories?

paulpauper4• 4 years ago

Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. I think instead those miners were offered vocational training, which included coding. This was in 2017.

maybe this is what they were talking about

https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/dev-bootcamp-shuttering...

ejb999• 4 years ago

>Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code.

Then I guess you really didn't look to hard:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/47...

snip:

"During a rally yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden spoke to a crowd in Derry, N.H., a town that many miners call home. He acknowledged the economic setbacks and job insecurity that coal miners face these days, and gave them some advice: learn to code."

RickWolter12• 4 years ago

coincidentally at Underdog Devs we took in some of the students from that failed project. It was called Mined Mines. A few still made it later and became software devs, but the majority didnt work out.

whydoyoucare• 4 years ago

Regarding #2 - while I am all for reforming the US prison system, a direct comparison of US (prison) failure with Scandinavian (prison) success is unfair. It also risks creating misguided reforms, without properly understanding and addressing the social, economic, historical and geographical gaps between the two countries.

lostboomerang4• 4 years ago

You and @KBeyo are absolutely right.

It is two different countries and very different cultures. Just modeling US prisons on Scandinavian ones is not a solution. I could even imagine it making things worse in the short-term (a banal example would be "so the prisoners in Norwegian prisons have access to knives in the kitchen they roam freely, let's try that in San Quentin"...)

But I think we could start looking at the incentives the American prison system creates while also addressing the social issues that seems to be the root of a lot of the challenges. It is not easy and I can imagine it taking a century to solve unfortunately.

KBeyo• 4 years ago

I work with people in prison, or as they are commonly referred to within some circles, justice involved individuals.

The issue here is not skilling these people in trades, it’s really about working on mental health and the underlying reasons why they are in prison. Until those challenges are addressed, these people mostly will not succeed. Many have not experienced much of a « normal » family life or friendships that promote personal growth, or mentorship.

On top of that, when many are released they have nothing. So, imagine trying to stay employed for a week when you have nowhere to live (especially hard to rent a place also when you have a record[1].

Anyway, we might know how to reduce recidivism, but society sure doesn’t seem interested in taking the steps to invest what’s needed.

[1] I recently spoke in front of the Colorado Senate concerning Assembly Bill 99 which will auto-erase the records of non-violent offenders in the state with some outcomes being that they can more easily find employment and rent places to live.

vlovich123• 4 years ago

There should be free transitionary housing on-prem on-site with the prison. You still get free housing and food and you’re not monitored / can come and go as you please. But it gives you a stable address and base of operations from which you build your new life. This isn’t halfway house which are dorms - you literally get your own space.

I also have wondered whether probation officers have a positive or negative impact overall on recidivism. It feels like forcing people to have an additional stress layer that can send them back to prison on top of everything else isn’t actually helpful.

erdos4d4• 4 years ago

Anyway, we might know how to reduce recidivism, but society sure doesn’t seem interested in taking the steps to invest what’s needed.

The current "justice" system is a huge jobs program all around, and it is predicated on a persistently large mass of criminals who scare the crap out of the public. If they go away, so do cops, lawyers, prison jobs, and all the ancillary positions which feed off them. Society needs to own up to this fact and figure out what to do with all those people, especially the ones who live in rural areas which are completely dependent on prisons. I really feel the economics are what keep mass incarceration going year after year, no matter how many stories get written about it, or how awful everyone agrees it is.

lostboomerang4• 4 years ago

You are right.

I'm sorry my message came a bit across like "Just copy Scandinavia, then everything will be great". Obviously that isn't the case. My point was that there's no easy solution to reduce recidivism, but if we need to start somewhere it might be better to look into incentives created by the current prison system than learning inmates to code.

That doesn't solve the whole cultural view on inmates, the social and psychological problems that placed a lot of them in the prison in the first place, etc. etc. etc.

incone123• 4 years ago

"justice involved individuals"

Do you find prisoners/former prisoners get any benefit from new labels like this?

Timpson Group uses non euphemistic language: "people who have criminal convictions", and proactively hires them.

https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/timpson-foundation/ex-offend...

indymike• 4 years ago

Colorado Senate concerning Assembly Bill 99 which will auto-erase the records of non-violent offenders

Being able to expunge records helps, but if you really want to help people with criminal records re-enter the workforce, you have to fix business liability insurance. Insurers often the ones forcing the issue in hiring practices by rate increase or by clauses that will not cover an ex-offender. A rate increase for a 200 employee company will cost what hiring 3-4 people costs, so everyone wants to help until they find out what the hidden costs are. In Indiana we fixed this, and it is much easier to hire people with records, and did more to help expunging records.

Removing records does not help much when asked "have you ever been convicted" and get caught telling less than the truth. The lie itself is often considered moral turpitude by the employer. Laws that make it ok to lie, never work as expected for anyone.

satysin6• 4 years ago

God I fucking hate the response "learn to code!" to everything.

People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed otherwise humanity will fall. Honestly it is one of the stupidest things I have heard.

Could more [good] programmers be a good thing? Sure, we can always do with more good programmers.

However the truth is we need more of many, many types of people. Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc.

Not everyone wants to be a programming. Not everyone can be a programmer.

Can I teach anyone to write Hello World or a simple number game in Python? Of course, same way I can teacher anyone to track their budget in a basic Excel file.

But I can't take anyone and teach them Excel to be a spreadsheet wizard for the finance department. Believe me I know this from first hand experience :)

What we need is an open, fair and free education system to encourage people of [almost] all ages to do what they are good at and enjoy. We put far too much positive spin on learning to code as if it is the answer to every god damn problem in the world.

paulpauper4• 4 years ago

What if those journalists had instead come out and said that miners are not smart enough to code. They would have gotten even more hate probably by the very same people. So you lose either way.

zozbot2342• 4 years ago

Teachers, doctors, nurses etc. can use code to simplify their jobs and make themselves more productive. Not everyone needs to be a professional coder, but being aware of what code is and how it works should absolutely be a basic skill. No different than reading or math.

RickWolter12• 4 years ago

Obviously not everyone wants to learn to code. I dont think anyone mistakenly believes that.The (possibly overused) advice to learn to code is prevalent because software is prevalent

Ill repeat what ive said elsewhere...It is a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record.

Since starting Underdog Devs Ive seen it over and over. With real commitment its very attainable. We have many success stories which seem like outliers, however they consistently happen.

This isn't something Ive read, its something we've done over and over with mentees. I get that youre tired of that trite bit of advice, but its happening for a lot of people. There are a lot of people who have had their entires life changed through that skill. Definitely not the solution for everyone, but it is the solution for some.

yarpnird• 4 years ago

Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc.

All of which having a criminal record disqualifies one from.

Akronymus2• 4 years ago

People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed otherwise humanity will fall.

Programming is truly fun for a very select group of people. (I count myself as one of those( But even then, as a job it is almost always miserable in some form.

I encourage people to check it out if its for them, I dont think they should be gaslit into becoming programmers.

Der_Einzige• 4 years ago

Be honest, this whole post could be summed up as "damn I hope the good times could continue for us and I don't want more competition".

WesternWind• 4 years ago

Programming is a pathway to a middle class life for a lot of folks, but not everyone.

But really the issue is that every job should be a pathway to a middle class life.

RickWolter12• 4 years ago

I agree with much of what you said. You've also missed the point if you are referring to the non-profit Underdog Devs, which helps the formerly incarcerated become developers, with your bootstraps comment.

If we could become software devs "by our own bootstraps" there would be no need for an Underdog Devs. Thats the point, support is needed.

Overall I agree with you though, learning to code is not some panacea to cure recidivism. It is however a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record.

Since starting Underdog Devs Ive seen it over and over. With real commitment its very attainable. We have many success stories which seem like outliers, however they consistently happen.

Beltalowda3• 4 years ago

"Life’s Not Fair".

"I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?'

So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03bOrvlAyeQ

are the US willing to make the changes necessary to create meaningful impact on the rates of recidivism - or shall we continue to be fed "pull yourself up by the bootstraps! We found one guy who did it, and so can you!" stories?

I think what the US first needs is a general cultural shift towards crime and criminals. I don't want to generalize too much, but the general attitude is that criminals are barely human monsters, and that every bad thing that happens for the rest of your life is "don't do the crime then!!!111" You know, stuff like this.[1] And don't even get me started on things like "At $249 per day, prison stays leave ex-inmates deep in debt" from last week.[2]

Funny how such an allegedly Christian nation doesn't seem to understand forgiveness. Guess I didn't read the Bible right shrug.

Things are changing, slowly, but there's still a long road ahead.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/08/...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32621642

rufus_foreman2• 4 years ago

> Educate felons when they're in prison

That's dangerous. I know people who went to prison.

We want educated ex-felons, what you might get is educated felons.

> We know how to reduce recidivism

Do we? Again, I know criminals. They're hard core. A guy says he's gonna shoot up meth every day until he dies, he's going to finance that any way he needs to, what is the known way to reduce that recidivism?

throwaway675309• 4 years ago

I legitimately can't tell if this post was written facetiously, what's your alternative? because the alternative of giving them no education is almost a sure fire guarantee that they'll be ill-equipped to be able to get a job with the potential to become a productive member of society.

He's not advocating that we teach lock picking 101 for chr##-sake.

But it's OK because you "know criminals" so naturally that extrapolates to all criminals in perpetuity throughout the universe.

adam_gyroscope• 4 years ago

I’m a mentor for Underdog Devs and love it! Happy to answer any questions.

accnumnplus1• 4 years ago

Religious belief. The way to heaven. Does any other profession have such a high opinion of itself?

remote_phone3• 4 years ago

I think the biggest problem prisons have is that you collect large groups of criminals and let them hang out together. It breeds an even more concentrated form of criminal. Often times minor criminals need to join racist gangs just to survive which Is inhumane.

I think they should all be separated from each other. They should be put in single cells, and given access to as much education as they want, and just basically put on time out for weeks, months, years. Let them chat with their families and understand the hurt they did. Let them meditate on what they want to do with Their lives after. But keep them separated. It makes things safer for guards as well, lowering the tension.

What we are doing now is useless, inhumane, and counterproductive.

lazyasciiart• 4 years ago

Solitary confinement is literally inhumane and drives people to suicide. This is one of the only realistic suggestions I can imagine that would make the US prison system worse.

RickWolter12• 4 years ago

just want to add that you are correct imo. confinement was overall the very worst experience of my 18 years in prison.

remote_phone3• 4 years ago

I didn’t mean solitary confinement. The prisoners can interact with other people during their sentence, just not with others prisoners.

einpoklum• 4 years ago

For me it was the other way around: I went to prison to stop programming. Well, sort of.

When I was drafted (involuntarily) into the Israeli Military, I worked as a programmer. It's much cheaper, you see, to have a programmer who doesn't get paid - assuming you can filter our those teens who are good enough to be able to do the job.

Now, I was only 18 years old. During my military service, my political consciousness developed, and I started thinking about what the Israeli military was doing with the product of my work, and for what purposes. I also became quite critical of the various foreign clients of the technology we were working on. It got to the point where I not only thought what my unit was doing was illegitimate, but in fact, I lost my support for the regime.

So, I quit. The thing is, quitting mandatory military service is a bit more difficult than quitting a civilian job... and in order to quit, I had to go to prison. Or rather, officially, you can't quit, you can only be discharged; and for that to happen you have to resist enough for them to believe they won't get any work out of you, and then they typically discharge you for "inappropriate conduct", or for being determined to have an (inspecific) psychological problem.

RickWolter12• 4 years ago

Hey everyone. My names Rick. Im the person Adam is interviewing. If any of you are interested in learning more about Underdog Devs, please reach out to us on Twitter @RwoltX and @UnderdogDevs or directly to underdogdevs.org

We are always looking for people who would like to get involved

the most common involvement is mentoring and pair programming

we also could use help in other areas...someone to help develop partnerships, admin, and general marketing.

as for donations ... Everything we receive goes directly to the mission. We do not take a dime to pay for any salaries. None of us do. We work as volunteers. Every penny we receive goes to learning resources and to the stipend program to pay the bills of our most gritty who are held back due to their financial situation.

sgt2• 4 years ago

I enjoyed the podcast and also reading your balanced replies on Hacker News. It seems like you're not easily offended and you've had enough experience to understand why people take other (extreme) views.

RickWolter12• 4 years ago

thanks. I try.

agumonkey• 4 years ago

I found you so optimistic in tone about your path, the randomness, the unfairness.. it was very strange to me, I'm so quickly angry.

Good luck for the rest

kazinator4• 4 years ago

Oh yeah, that's gonna bring status to our profession!

Can you imagine "Prison to District Attorney". Or "Prison to Chief of Staff of Hospital".

z3c02• 4 years ago

No, because - as a programmer - I have the humility to admit that this job requires neither the stress management, the moral complexity, the social responsibility, nor the interpersonal skills that the jobs you've listed require.

I think our profession needs less gatekeeping, not more.

kazinator4• 4 years ago

You only speak for yourself, and not very well.

Less gatekeeping? Sure, bring on more women, ... and convicted sex offenders. Diversity is the fabric of the modern workplace!

PeterStuer• 4 years ago

Prison to lawyer happens though.

Beltalowda3• 4 years ago

Oh yeah, that's gonna bring status to our profession!

Who cares?

So what is your plan for former convicts? Have them in prison their entire lives? Only give them the shittiest of jobs for the rest of their lives? Send them to Australia? Outer space?

All other things being equal, I'd rather have a former convict motivated to make the best of things than some privileged middle-class millennial who thinks the world owes them everything.

kazinator4• 4 years ago

How about becoming cops? Since existing police officers are already exposed to criminals (and not even "nice", reformed ones), they (and their families) shouldn't mind so much.

Anyway, that wasn't my point; my point is that this kind of article is harmful to our profession, not the fact that the ex cons found something to work at that they like.

Just maybe keep the past under wraps. I don't want to know. If I find out, I'm getting the hell out.

Yes, sure, "anyone can code"; I get it. Or, maybe not anyone, but a person with the right cognitive aptitudes regardless of their background.

anon33559872• 4 years ago

(Long time member, but anon for this one, sry)

I'll bite. True story.

This company hired a young guy. Extremely likable dude. (100% female, if that matters) HR loves him, not likes, loves him. Undenyably charming chap. He's hired in a technical position despite having no real education in IT or Computer Science, nor any previous experience.

Turns out he was involved in a fairly recent murder case, did pre-arrest and out on bail. Never mentioned any of it on his CV/application. Things only suface when his trial and subsequent post conviction jailtime comes up.

So, he hired a few other guys to break in and rob an elderly person, who had under his charms confided in him she had a safe full of shinies. Not just hired, he drove them to the site to commit the robbery. They end up killing the eldery woman during the breakin/robbery. The safe turned out to be a fancifull story the granny told the guy.

Murder wasn't solved, but his hired hands start balckmailing him, threathning to rat him out (he was a waiter in a place the elderly woman fequented, where he charmed her). As the blackmail progresses, he sees no way out and walks to the police to cut a deal.

Trial happens, he gets convicted with a light sentence because of ''çooperation'', and after not too long here he is back at the company. HR sends out feelers to the employees (it's a small company of around 50 employees), but it is clear they're still 100% charmed and the whole thing is just to see who would quit once they hired him back so they can prepare.

Now for the kicker: While he was at the company before the trial, and before the company had any idea of his past, he had pitched a SaaS market platform scheme for 'services to the elderly', involving a full database of sensitive info on elderly persons living alone at home.

After his (very) short jail sentence, he is hired back by the company on the same scheme.

Now I've always been an open minded person. I think people can change (infrequently mind you, but possible). But there seem to be too many notes here to not call it a symphony. I have worked with charming psychopaths in the past as has anyone who has been in this business for some time, and you do get better at spotting certain things.

Your thoughts?

RickWolter12• 4 years ago

I have worked with charming psychopaths in the past as has anyone who has been in this business for some time, and you do get better at spotting certain things.

how many charming psychopaths have you worked with ? And what have you spotted? I seriously laughed out loud when I read that.

what is the point in your comment? To try and discredit me? what for? to harm underdog devs?

you cant expect me to take that analogy serious...you compare someone who actively seeks to cause harm with someone who made a terrible choice as a teenager, hasn't been in trouble in over 20 years, and spends his free time helping people for free?

Theres no way you can be serious. you know what I think....I think youre full of shit. I think you made that story up and I think you have some personal issue with me or underdog devs. Probably why youre using a burner.

at least you think im charming so theres that

jrz8133• 4 years ago

"Yes they still work here after everything we already know. What do we do?"

anon33559872• 4 years ago

@RickWolter This has nothing to do with your story. I do not think I said anything to state or even imply imply that. It was not an 'analogy', not an attempt to 'discredit' neither you nor the organization. I have/had respect for both you and underdog devs, the work you have put in and the goals of the org. I do admit that the way you responded has not increased that respect to put it mildly. It certainly was not ''charming''. But hey, we all have our bad days I guess.

As to 'What is the point in your comment?'

I posted the experiences because it was/is a truly troubling situation for many at the company. Since this topic came up in general, thought I'd ask for advice from what I assumed people with more experience in these matters. Apparently, that is assumed bad faith. Isn't it sad that we have come to this where we can no longer can have questions or discussions? 'I think youre full of shit. I think you made that story up and I think you have some personal issue with me or underdog devs'? Seriously? I had never heard of you or underdog devs before this post.

I use a 'burner' because if I used my real account it would be very easy to find out the company and people directly involved, and that is not what I want.

And yes, you will find psychopaths in business. I don't think it is possible to have a full carreer without running into a few. And no matter how preparared you are, the best ones will fool you, sometimes even for considerable time. My advice there would be, if you see them decloack on others, do not assume they will not on you.

I feel realy sad you took this so wrong. I guess the net realy has no place for good faith inquiry anymore.

Beltalowda3• 4 years ago

I think the parallels between your story and Rick's story are few; the only one I see is that they both spent some time in prison.

Rick was a stupid 17-year old kid who did a stupid thing, and ended up being hired as a software dev two decades later in his late 30s after growing out of his stupidness as many stupid kids do.

Your guy committed a calculated crime very recently as an adult, and generally seems like a conman and a bit of a twat from your description.

This is one of those things where the specifics just make a world of difference. "Spent time in prison" just isn't detailed enough to make any sort of judgement one way or the other.

AlbertCory2• 4 years ago

I see that Rick is on the thread and says he's not a psychopath, and I have no reason to doubt him.

However: anyone who thinks "rehabilitation" is the answer for all felons is full of it ([1], [2]). If they are actually psychopaths, therapy is just finishing school for them. It teaches them how to fake normal human emotions better. It gives them a better vocabulary for fooling therapists.

You need someone like Mr. Anon who can spot these con artists and see through their BS.

[1] https://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/topic1931...

[2] https://psychopathyis.org/stats/

anon19222• 4 years ago

Not all prison sentences are the same. I am in a trial case for possession of illegal pornography (yes, that..). My name came out in the media on the day of my arrest, and society has already concluded the trial years before it is scheduled to take place. Lost the tech-related job, had to move out, lost all social interactions, etc. I've had severe mental health issues and a very difficult past so I had always been searching for therapy without much success, but that made it even harder.

On the plus side, all these years I've put to some use in learning that if nobody can help you with therapy you can still build it back up yourself. Pick from all the toolsets of DBT, CBT, read with a critical mind zen or buddhist writings, use the time to figure out what healing and coping are and how to put it in practice at every moment, and moment-to-moment. And I've only done all of that because when all things fell apart a couple people still stood by me and I figured I couldn't trust myself a whole lot more than I could trust their hearts, so I put in the work.

Doesn't exactly matter though, because prison will hit like a truck even though I was socially sentenced years ago, and pretty much every single program I've ever heard of for people "from prison" would use murder as the paramount example, but nobody will touch my kind of conviction with a ten foot pole.

All the sexual offenders I've been in group therapy with were either leaning on secrecy (jobs that don't do background checks, their names having remained undisclosed to the public, etc) or they were at the end of their rope. I have a couple people in my life who love me and am thankful for their help, but I very much suspect I'll fall in the latter category when justice officially passes over me.

erdos4d4• 4 years ago

I don't know your case, but getting your whole life shitcanned for having illegal porn seems crazy to me. Can you start a business and work behind that? I've never once looked into who founded any company I've hired for anything, ever. I doubt anyone else does either. An idea.

anon19222• 4 years ago

I'll keep that in mind, thanks. I just happen to have a name that, as far as I've been able to tell for decades, uniquely identifies me in the world (due to unusual spellings). And after many years of a very slow crawl through the justice system without the job, I have long lost any kind of savings (and would be homeless if not for the support of a couple people around me).

The top google results for my name - even with a usual expected typo I get, lands on articles online from the day of the arrest. Only reporting on the arrest itself, therefore not declaring the guilt, but it hardly matters to any reader or automated tools that copy those articles over and over again on random blogs. It's a terrifying ride going forward, no matter how much I figure out healing and therapeutic tools.

benkarst• 4 years ago

Or if you make TC, from 'from programming to prison'.

badrabbit• 4 years ago

Question: Without a CS degree background can you still work as a programmer with just knowing the languages? Do companies require something else like a bootcamp leetcode?

ChrisMarshallNY• 4 years ago

I have a G.E.D. A bit of redneck tech school. The rest is OJT, seminars, nights and weekends, and side work. Lots of volunteer work.

Worked for me.

I can also relate to the topic. I work daily with many folks that have had to rebuild their lives; as both victim and victimizer.

Tough room. Many of the folks you try to help aren't gonna make it. Some will try to take you down with them (not always the criminals, either. Some of the victims get fairly primal, as well). Learning to balance and hold your boundaries is key. Don't get punked, but also, don't let the punks stop you.

Long story. Get your hanky. Things have turned out OK, in the long run.

I salute and support Mr. Wolter, and wish him all the luck in the world.

RickWolter12• 4 years ago

without a doubt

Joel_Mckay• 4 years ago

While some may think life is unfair, the fact remains that recidivism rates are high. No one wants to be a cautionary tale for being complicit with a sensitive area of a business. The reason prisons don’t like people freely using computers/phones, is many prisoners feel justified in blackmailing other inmates families and scamming the public.

Some may get away with breaking rules even while serving a sentence, but that same lack of impulse control is what keeps people poor. The world does not change, and people must adapt to the reality of their situation.

amelius• 4 years ago

Reminds me of the author of ReiserFS, where the story went in the opposite direction.

r00tanon• 4 years ago

I can only go by my experience in that a passion for making computers do things was the seed. From there it drove a desire to learn more. I don't think most people can sustain the desire without that. It really should be about feeding the innate talents. Could I make a living playing music? No. It's not a one size fits all thing.

ROTMetro• 4 years ago

https://www.unicor.gov/DataConversionVideo.aspx

Guys, we're good. Just look at the opportunity the government provides prison slaves, I mean inmates. Don't forget in the Feds you are required to work, or you will be shipped to a higher classification facility and receive Diesel Therapy(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_therapy ).

Unicor, the Federal Government's slave labor auction site.

USA 13the Amendment to the Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

AlbertCory2• 4 years ago

I'm not in any way, shape, or form comparing veterans to felons. If anything, vets are favored rather than disfavored for hiring. This is strictly about "learn to code."

I did a podcast where I interviewed vets or their spouses: https://operationcode.org/podcast

Many of them were, or are, in 4-year degree programs, but some went to code schools. Some had technical careers in the military, but not all. Very few were actually in combat, but nearly all were deployed.

I found that there was very little I could teach them about programming. They already knew everything and most had jobs. One worked at Google, last I heard.

So yeah: why not prisoners, assuming they're not psychopaths just trying to amplify their evil-doing abilities?

kazinator4• 4 years ago

I'd ideally like to be able to quit when an employer starts hiring criminals, and get the full compensation package, as if I'd been laid off, and the freedom to tell the truth about it in interviews.

From Prison to Programming

Related Stories