East German Doping Victims Die 10 to 12 Years Earlier (2018)

https://www.zeit.de/zustimmung?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fsport%2F2018-03%2Fdoping-east-germany-research-harald-freyberger-english%2Fkomplettansicht

by Tomte • 4 years ago

110 53 4 years ago

zeit.de

mpol2• 4 years ago

Original discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17529815

raverbashing2• 4 years ago

Interesting tidbits

On average, victims of East German doping die 10 to 12 years earlier than the rest of the population. And here's another alarming statistic: A victim of East German doping falls ill 2.7 times as often, and for psychological illnesses, we have calculated a factor of 3.2.

That's fair enough

Against this background, calls to legalize performance-enhancing drugs are naïve and irresponsible.

Maybe, but this is a bit of a non-sequitur. Especially as the drugs were given unwillingly and with no consideration to individual conditions (and in excess doses)

It was more of an experiment than anything else.

dav_Oz2• 4 years ago

Yes. One could easily argue the other way.

The magnitude in East Germany was likely unique. Unbeknownst to them, the athletes were given heavy anabolic steroids along with sex and growth hormones, often in extremely high doses. For many of the victims, the consequences have been dramatic, some of which are only appearing now, decades later.

The other thing which is missing in that rather myopic conversation is that after their careers are over most competitive athletes in general have a hard time adjusting to a more "mundane" life which is understandable given that they were training since their childhood to be the best in their respective sport. Money to some extent can bridge that gap but in most sports there isn't much money to be made in the first place. Now give this into the mix of the accumulated harm to the body - at that level you are taking that willingly into account - and some insane overdosing to somehow sustain the damage in a system with unchecked incentives (ideological view), you now have a very clear signal.

In classic bodybuilding where historically virtually all half-openly use/experiment with all kinds of PEDs, one can observe that with time and experience the dosings of e.g. TRT and GH are being finely titrated now. Additionaly because of the more open culture around that topic there is a solid understanding (in the more professional community at least) about the benefits and potential side effects.

Another more serious issue are the effects of extreme weight cutting but I'll leave it at that.

raverbashing2• 4 years ago

Another more serious issue are the effects of extreme weight cutting but I'll leave it at that.

Agree. That is one serious elephant in the room.

atchoo• 4 years ago

there is a solid understanding (in the more professional community at least)

Hmm. I don't know about that. There has been a spate of recent deaths of professional bodybuilders in their 30s and 40s despite more knowledge and health checks.

The problem with PEDs in competitive sports is that in many cases, higher doses mean more results. It pushes competitors and coaches out of what might be safe usage into high risk. Although use is admitted in bodybuilding, the vast doses and number of compounds is something most lie / downplay with only a few whistleblowers sharing real world usage.

Another more serious issue are the effects of extreme weight cutting

Also a PED issue. Some of the Shelby Starne's stacks used in recent deaths of female bodybuilders are insane. Stacking 3 different diuretics, multiple types of stimulant... my god. They looked like they were designed to give people heart attacks.

nradov• 4 years ago

Most performance-enhancing drugs are already legal for prescription use, and in some circumstances can even be used by competitive athletes with an approved therapeutic use exception. But there's really nothing to be gained by allowing every athlete to use such drugs.

https://youtu.be/jAdG-iTilWU

isaacfrond• 4 years ago

Webpage archive:

https://archive.ph/SlmHD

RcouF1uZ4gsC• 4 years ago

On average, victims of East German doping die 10 to 12 years earlier than the rest of the population.

While the comparison with the general population is interesting, I would also like to see a comparison with Olympic athletes in general.

To be an Olympics athlete, even without doping, you have to be an outlier physically. In addition, even without doping, there is an intensive training regimen and specialized diet. There is also ultra competitive environment and high stress of competing in front of the whole world and knowing that a fraction of a second may be all the difference between glory winning the gold medal and the obscurity of 4th place. Finally, there is the whiplash where for a few weeks you are the center of attention and then when the Olympics are over, are more or less forgotten, even if you did win the gold.

This environment is pretty likely to have physical and psychological consequences, even apart from the doping, and it would be interesting to see what they are in comparison to doping.

antman• 4 years ago

And to do that comparison, where will they find an East German Olympic athlete undoped?

samatman3• 4 years ago

This was a more ethnically homogenous era for the German nations.

West Germany is a reasonable control group.

tgv• 4 years ago

Since it's relative to their direct environment, the only major compensation required would be the amount of training, I think. For the rest, you can compare them to athletes (at similar age and career at the time of the doping) all over the world.

mattmcknight• 4 years ago

In general the lifespan effects on East and West German Olympians were more modest than 10 to 12 years, but I found this one article which also found a higher mortality risk for German Olympians in general.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7739809/

smackay• 4 years ago

Female and male US Olympic athletes live 5 years longer than their general population counterparts: a study of 8124 former US Olympians

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/4/206

thesz2• 4 years ago

What about USSR Olympic athletes? Especially before USSR collapse.

Salient words at the very start of the article are "former athletes... suffer from poverty". East German Olympic athletes suffered poverty, which is a risk factor in any part of the world.

That's why I am asking about USSR statistics before USSR collapse - at that time weightlifters were treated very well, much like at US today, if not better.

BLanen• 4 years ago

Yea but the (former) East German population lives a lot healthier than the general US population.

jotm2• 4 years ago

I thought that's common knowledge? The lifespan decrease from effective steroids, I mean.

When making the decision voluntarily, you trade years of life for better quality of life. Which is a tradeoff many people would accept.

cafard• 4 years ago

Better quality of life for yourself, or for the GDR sports administration?

cgh• 4 years ago

There’s little evidence that modest courses of anabolic steroids lead to shortened lifespans. Millions of men are on legally-prescribed steroids right now, although we call it “trt”. The East Germans were in relatively unique circumstances, likely comparable or even beyond modern professional bodybuilding dosages, which are in turn way beyond what any professional athlete would take.

From the article:

“Freyberger: The magnitude in East Germany was likely unique. Unbeknownst to them, the athletes were given heavy anabolic steroids along with sex and growth hormones, often in extremely high doses. For many of the victims, the consequences have been dramatic, some of which are only appearing now, decades later.”

wolverine8764• 4 years ago

When making the decision voluntarily, you trade years of life for better quality of life.

If you are well-informed about the decision. Most are not, and realistically will not understand the costs and benefits. That's why we don't let companies sell dangrous things freely.

Which is a tradeoff many people would accept.

I'm not sure what that means. What tradeoff would many accept? It depends on the benefit and the cost. Of course people would take eliminating excruciating chronic back pain at the cost of losing a day of life, but they would not take eliminating hangnails at the cost of losing 10 years.

I'm sure you know that; my point is, what are you actually saying?

StevePerkins• 4 years ago

I'm very surprised that you're being downvoted here, or lead on frivolous logical goose chases by replies.

Everyone... just make-believe that we're talking about recreational drugs. Rather than a class of drugs that you and your social cohort do NOT take to get high, or to self-medicate your self-diagnosed mental health disorders. Perhaps that thought experiment will help?

jotm2• 4 years ago

I was actually wondering if this is not common knowledge. People getting Testosterone Replacement Therapy are warned about the negative effects including a shorter lifespan. Bodybuilders using steroids know about it. ~10 years is a common figure.

That people who were (involuntarily) given high doses die early is not a surprise. Outside sports, steroids do have their place, even with such a seemingly serious drawback.

But yeah, articles like these are used to drive fear and bans for a lot of drugs. Then they wonder why so many people fall for homeopathy. Because they can't get anything else, that's why.

carapace• 4 years ago

Help what?

OP is likely getting downvoted because the East German doping victims weren't "accepting a tradeoff", eh?

mensetmanusman• 4 years ago

I grew up watching Mutant League cartoons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutant_League

It probably altered my view on doping.

Because so much money is involved in sports, I think we should legalize it even knowing that it has these health effects.

People volunteering to test performance enhancement will improve our understanding of human biology. If everyone knows they kill you, people will search for versions that do not over time and will be able to weigh risk/reward.

a4isms4• 4 years ago

It's not "people volunteering" to test performance enhancing drugs in sport any more than it's "people volunteering" to test the effects of concussion on the brain in contact sports.

It's a perverse set of incentives designed to exploit the underclass into becoming celebrity gladiators for the entertainment of the masses. It is a free choice and so on, but let's not pretend it is a randomized sample of humans in a double-blind study conducted with ethical oversight.

rowanG0773• 4 years ago

I just looked up the demographic of professional atheletes: https://www.zippia.com/professional-athlete-jobs/demographic...

The amount of college graduates is SIGNIFICANTLY higher for them then the average US population. You can't really make the argument that they are an exploited underclass when they are one of the best paid and educated in the country.

treeman793• 4 years ago

My daughters were involved at a national sports level for awhile. We had enough trouble with people trying to game the system with age.

Imagine a 10 year girl competing against another 10 year maxed to the extreme on steroids.

anon23anon• 4 years ago

10 year olds doing gymnastics doping might not be super common but you better believe it's in the. high school locker room for sports like football.

wolverine8764• 4 years ago

I always wonder: How does a parent talk to their 10 year old about things like cheating, hypercompetitive, badly behaving adults, where things are completely unfair and even abusive?

a4isms4• 4 years ago

An absolute must-read on the subject of exploitation and outright abuse in elite "women's" gymnastics and figure-skating:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Girls_in_Pretty_Boxes

coldtea• 4 years ago

People volunteering to test performance enhancement will improve our understanding of human biology.

That's more Mengele than a sports ethic though...

Sports are not test-labs...

jonp888• 4 years ago

Volunteering has nothing to do with it, either back then or nowadays in Russia.

They are ordered by their coaches to take the drugs, and if they refuse orders from their coach their elite sporting career is over.

knbknb• 4 years ago

The East German staff (team directors and doctors) probably didn't really know which dosis of Doping Medication was the right one for the performance enhancing treatments.

The substances were newly discovered, and in the 1970s/80 nobody on Earth has ever used that human growth hormone on children or young adults. So, I guess the medical staff simply, systematically, tried a whole range of concentrations on their athletes. Those who then performed best in training were promoted to the Olympic team. Those who received too little were removed from the national team.

And those who received too high concentrations? They had their adolescent bodies messed up, but were simply neglected afterwards. A very cynical program indeed.

0des• 4 years ago

HGH has been used for much longer than you give it credit for to address a myriad of growth issues. What the difference is now we have lab derived recombinant HGH rather than that of the cadavers they used to be extracted from.

LAGH is rather new, and Im excited to see where it goes and how it affects treatments of those who want to minimize the frequency of administering it.

East German Doping Victims Die 10 to 12 Years Earlier (2018)

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