Transfusion of brain fluid from young mice improves memory in old mice

https://www.statnews.com/2022/05/11/transfusion-of-young-cerebrospinal-fluid-is-memory-elevating-elixir/

by gmays • 4 years ago

177 148 4 years ago

statnews.com

beached_whale• 4 years ago

I wonder how long until this is a thing some people do; like the blood transfusions from younger/healthy people.

rossdavidh• 4 years ago

My immediate first thought on reading the headline.

thebeardisred• 4 years ago

Apparently you, rossdavidh, and I are all on the same wavelength.

I was imagining Elon and Jeff keeping a stable with the equivalent of vampire "blood bags".

pc86• 4 years ago

I mean there's a Silicon Valley episode where Gavin has a "blood boy."

mcguire• 4 years ago

"We drink elixirs that we refine

From the juices of the dying"

Shriekback, Nemesis, 1985.

NGRhodes• 4 years ago

It's a new market for Jiffylube.

heavyset_go• 4 years ago

It'll always creep me out that medical vampirism is a thing.

ClumsyPilot• 4 years ago

How long untill our billionairs people will be basically like aztec gods demanding human sacrafice for new organs

kornhole• 4 years ago

Russell manages to give a laugh at even the most disturbing topics. Here is is his show about the huge industry of blood extraction. https://youtu.be/82pOL361zUk

reducesuffering• 4 years ago

Russell is using conspiratorial populist fear mongering to pivot into a new career. "Big Pharma Billionare Politician pedophile boogeyman don't want you to know they're coming to get you"

bitwize• 4 years ago

Gavin Belson is going to have a brain boy in his dotage.

zuminator• 4 years ago

Better would be if there's a way to mass produce the fluid in a lab.

SemanticStrengh12• 4 years ago

Btw we can significantly increase blood production via Epo. The question is wether blood from cows/pigs rejuvenate. It could get an industrial scale.

ninesnines7• 4 years ago

this above article is kind of inflammatory, however, this paper is incredibly interesting.

I read it this morning and the concept of changing CSF in order to have an increase in oligodendrocyte progenitor cell proliferation and differentiation is such a creative idea; a lot of the idea has focused on increasing flow in order to move waste, etc with csf. I think this concept that CSF is also acting as an important mechanism to moving factors that will cause up regulation, etc, is very novel.

honestly one of my favourite papers in the last five years, I am obsessed.

mwint• 4 years ago

I'm curious, what is your favorite paper of all time (the specification of 'last five years' sounds like it's not this one?)

ninesnines7• 4 years ago

ah there are a lot of really nice old nature/science neuroscience articles that are really clear! papers were more simple and clear 20 years ago

SemanticStrengh12• 4 years ago

I don't have a favorite but one that stands out is the resuscitation of cryogenized hamsters https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.1956.005...

s1artibartfast6• 4 years ago

Modifying CSF turnover is not particularly novel, but I do think it is generally overlooked. CSF production cycling is greatly reduced in the elderly and and there are a lot of connections to memory diseases such as alzheimers.

A few medical device startups have attacked the problem with promising results. Unfortunately, VC and national funding orgs aren't particularly interested in device based solutions because pills and injections are perpetually 5 years out.

I'm aware of at least one that was able to halt or reverse alzheimers in a 200 patient trial, but folded after they couldnt get funding to move forward.

SemanticStrengh12• 4 years ago

I remember seeing a drug/substance that potentiated the glymphatic system filtration but I just can't find it again, it's been a year..

mleonhard5• 4 years ago

Can you share any more information about the medical device that showed efficacy against Alzheimers in the 200-patient trial?

ninesnines7• 4 years ago

yes yes I know that increasing CSF flow is not that novel (anymore e.g. last couple of years). you can increase it with cerebral blood flow, and you can do this with sleep, respiration, visual stimuli, etc.

however, the ideas of 1) replacing csf from young to older mice and 2) the idea that there are factors in CSF that are being delivered to other areas of the brain and promoting cell proliferation: that's pretty novel.

all of the literature right now points to csf in terms of waste clearance and csf is painted as almost a river that picks up components and moves waste (e.g. amyloid beta) from the periarterial areas in the parenchyma and then out through the perivenous areas into the lymphatic system. and this means that the idea of delivery of promoting factors is really interesting.

vmception2• 4 years ago

Just don't do it to the Eldians.

In all seriousness, I wonder if this can be synthesized. A transport layer for brain conductivity, just replace the fluid. Maybe create an even better fluid than what the young hosts have.

a9h74j• 4 years ago

just replace the fluid

Jiffy Brain franchises on the way.

vmception2• 4 years ago

Imagine the fraudulent upsells.

Llamamoe2• 4 years ago

Not quite the same, but there exists a nootrooic called Cerebrolysin which is made from enzymatically treated pig brain peptides, including all sorts of brain growth factors.

vasco• 4 years ago

I wonder if taking something with brain growth factors makes you more or less likely to suffer from more serious consequences if you have brain trauma. ie Are you more or less likely to have a serious concussion after hitting your head.

1270018080• 4 years ago

Don't let the oligarchs here about this.

dv_dt• 4 years ago

This makes me wonder about transmission of diseases such as prions in that kind of transfusion though. Perhaps better to understand the fundamental process and synthesize the core chemicals involved (if it comes to that).

msie• 4 years ago

It is so frustrating that the end result is years away. I hope that they don’t just look for some equivalent micro drug but perform experiments with the actual growth factor in human test subjects.

pengaru5• 4 years ago

Haven't similar things been observed with blood transfusions of young blood into the elderly, which was then found to actually be unnecessary - even just diluting the blood with something neutral and clean produced similar results.

"The solution to pollution is dilution"

api• 4 years ago

Could it be this simple? Shit just builds up in the blood that the liver and kidneys and stuff are not 100% efficient at removing? So you just need to... get rid of it or dilute it?

I mean that can't possibly be a full solution but could a major "win" on life span or at least health span be as simple as some kind of dialysis session?

Could this also be a hidden mechanism involved in some of that hyperbaric oxygen chamber evidence for life/health extension? Maybe all that oxygen oxidizes and destroys some of this stuff.

pengaru5• 4 years ago

My lay person assumption is it's more complicated than that, just knowing how the body is always conserving resources and adapting to changing conditions. I'd expect the body's natural mechanisms responsible for this to wind down operations the more you intervened on its behalf.

It's obviously the right choice in the elderly/ill, but for a healthy young person maybe it's better to exercise/strengthen the body's natural abilities in these departments. I think one of the arguments for intermittent fasting is to clean up the detritus being kept around for energy sake, via natural mechanisms...

SemanticStrengh12• 4 years ago

It is that simple to some extent, recycling and resource control is a major factor in aging. Targets: Autophagy, senolytics (don't take senolytics), lysosomes, metabolic rate, proteasome,chaperone proteins,amyloids,Lipofuscin.

The best example of stuff literally accumulating macroscopically in your body (besides the impressive images of Lipofuscin) is metals accumulation in bones. They cause a lot of damage, including a major cause of neurodegeneration. They can be removed via chelators.

BTW I would avoid hyperbaric at all cost even if hornesis is a thing. Oxygen is literally the reason we are all slowly dying, we oxidize and implode. But don't refrain from breathing, hypoxia incurs more damage. If you want to prevent oxidation you need Skq1.

bawolff• 4 years ago

I don't understand why dilluting it would work here - either its filterable and it would get filtered regardless (e.g. drinking water would be enough) or it wont be and the dillutant would just be filtered

jasfi• 4 years ago

So drinking more water would be enough?

pengaru5• 4 years ago

This isn't my area of expertise at all.

A personal experience that comes to mind is when my childhood cat developed kidney disease.

She drank plenty of water, urinated excessively, and her blood still became toxic without regular (~daily) intervention in the form of adding saline to her blood intravenously. Like a light switch she'd resume normal life after the saline bag emptied into her blood, then slowly become ill again in the next 24-48hrs.

bpodgursky• 4 years ago

Well, that doesn't actually remove PFASs that linger forever in your blood, that the kidney can't filter.

But gently cutting your arm open and draining a pint into the sink will do the trick!

candiddevmike• 4 years ago

All the more reason to donate blood.

entangledqubit• 4 years ago

Now I just need to figure out how to donate brain fluid...

noneeeed3• 4 years ago

I believe there are good health reasons to donate. I forget the details, but it stimulates positive processes in the body. I think the effect is marginal, but it's nice to know you get a small personal bonus from doing something nice for other people.

mullingitover• 4 years ago

Actually it was nothing to do with adding/removing blood, the treatment worked with synthetic serum albumin[1].

[1] https://www.lifespan.io/news/recombinant-serum-albumin-incre...

piyh2• 4 years ago

Donate blood and a man can bleed for a day. Donate marrow and a man can bleed for a lifetime.

ninesnines7• 4 years ago

same lab actually!

sudden_dystopia• 4 years ago

The mice boomers will never relinquish their power now.

yalogin• 4 years ago

May be a stupid question but how confident are we that we understand memory in mice? Is memory as humans perceive it the same as what mice perceive it?

ninesnines7• 4 years ago

not a stupid question!

you can classify memory into many different components, and how memory in mice translates into humans is not extremely clear.

we can do experiments that do fear conditioning, or classic conditioning and operant conditioning, but the translation from mice to humans is definitely not clear cut. I think this is one of the biggest weaknesses of the paper actually

SemanticStrengh12• 4 years ago

We do not understand memory of humans nor of mices nor of C.elegans. The question of the neural code is an unsolved problem with close to zero progress. However we don't need to, The regions and deficits in memory processing are highly preserved/correlated between mammals. They are many potent Nootropics for memory, such as Dihexa and prl, those are called hypermnesics. A classical one is choline, found in eggs and overlap with the nicotine impact on intelligence

samstave2• 4 years ago

This is why I want a personal stem-cell account.

I would like an account of various bodily components, grown from my personal stem-cells, for injection / growth / use as I see fit.

My Stem Cells My Choice.

---

(for example, I want to regrow my eyeballs.)

SemanticStrengh12• 4 years ago

My Stem Cells My Choice We need a political movement Strong agree but I'm not aware wether adult stem cells can be grown into whole organs. It's true that e.g the spleen can respawn after ablation so definitely not impossible. Although of course the graal is your sperm, it is a DNA that is 0 years old, you can't make it any younger! Growing fœtuses without brains might be a real possibility and the ultimate medecine breakthrough.

Note that your eyeball metabolism can be significantly rejuvenated, e.g retinalamin often reverse blindness in humans. Or Skq1/visomiten. Glaucoma and macular degeneration are totally solved problems. As for myself I want to shrink my eyeballs (myopia) but this is not pharmacologically doable (because extremely undefunded) although Berberine do very significantly slow the myopia progress.

abduhl• 4 years ago

Finally we have a way for the old to use and take advantage of the future they've stolen from the younger generations over the past two decades.

davesque2• 4 years ago

These kinds of articles give me the creeps. As interesting as the science is, I imagine this also encourages a bunch of silicon valley millionaires and billionaires to essentially become vampires.

NegativeLatency• 4 years ago

Blood boy -> brain boy

aeternum2• 4 years ago

Vampires are unbecoming.

This is why the SV billionaires need to create the metaverse. The matrix had a the right idea, just keep the young plugged in to VR and use machines to do the dirty work.

Karawebnetwork2• 4 years ago

On the reverse side of the coin, I would love to be able to extend the life of my parents by giving them liquids that my body is able to replenish.

davesque2• 4 years ago

Very good counter point :).

daenz2• 4 years ago

The show Silicon Valley had a small story arc that involved this kind of thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBA0AH-LSbo

black_132• 4 years ago

Aren’t they already ?

lambdasquirrel• 4 years ago

I don't know why it needs to start with Silicon Valley necessarily. Because we're a bunch of socially-awkward people? We just saw the Jeffrey Epstein thing unfold, and who-knows what well-connected old-money/old-power folks were serviced by him and Ghislaine Maxwell. If they could extend their life and get their pickings of young girls, you bet they'd do it.

This old-eating-the-young thing has been going on for time immemorial. It's encoded into our mythology, of Saturn eating his children so that they wouldn't usurp him. And it's not just our (i.e. Western) culture either.

filoeleven• 4 years ago

I don't know why it needs to start with Silicon Valley necessarily. Because we're a bunch of socially-awkward people?

No, It’s because Peter Thiel was (perhaps still is) reportedly interested in it, and that was a big enough story to be eventually lampooned by the comedy show Silicon Valley.

philjohn• 4 years ago

Also the Blood Libel against Jewish people, of which QAnon is just the latest incarnation.

patbwill• 4 years ago

Seems a perfect movie plot: A villain kidnaps children to extract brain fluid looking for the immortality :-(

bigodbiel2• 4 years ago

Q Productions presents!

As conspiracy theory, it predates Trump/Qanon, we’ve had David Icke with his adrenochrome from children sucking reptilian royalties

klyrs• 4 years ago

Turn that to 11; Tad Williams' Otherland is among my favorite reads.

yazaddaruvala• 4 years ago

This is basically the side-plot of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Ascending

bigodbiel2• 4 years ago

Yay another hip SV startup just around the corner!

spacephysics• 4 years ago

In before the AJ people start saying “see?! Adrenochromes!”

Surely this will give more fuel to the conspiratorial fire.

noneeeed3• 4 years ago

Who are the "AJ people"? Is this yet another bunch of conspiracy nutters?

SemanticStrengh12• 4 years ago

See also cerebrolysin in humans. Yes google it. Now.

ahurmazda• 4 years ago

Death is the ultimate equalizer. We take solace in the fact that no matter how rich, brutal, tyrannical, comically-villainous one is, death will surely come for us all.

The day old-gizzards figure out how to sip on young-people juice and live forever, we are truly screwed.

meowface2• 4 years ago

I think it's the exact opposite. The day being old is no longer a disease and a path to inevitable death will be one of the greatest things to ever happen to humanity, now and forever into the future. Especially if you can retain a youthful, healthy brain and body no matter how old you are.

An old tyrannical movie villain dies and a to-be old tyrannical movie villain is born. Billions of people shouldn't be sentenced to death just because the world might be a bit better off if a few people weren't immortal.

dangerlibrary• 4 years ago

Pretty sure the possible world being lamented in the GP comment is not "everyone gets to live forever and stay healthy and youthful" but instead "there exist expensive, parasitic procedures which will allow some rich people to have drastically extended lifespans."

kiba3• 4 years ago

Tyrants aren't even forever even if they never die of old age. After all, tyrants can meet their end through constantly replacing their followers with yes-men to the point of becoming increasingly detached from reality. This may prevent them from noticing certain features of reality such as military incompetence of their force.

solfox• 4 years ago

Death is a beautiful happening that we should not fear so much. It allows growth and transmutation of stagnant ideology.

kiba3• 4 years ago

Death is just a horrible thing that happens. The facts that it come equally for both heroes and villains doesn't change that.

atoav• 4 years ago

Death is just a thing that happens. Whether it is horrible, sad, a relief or a reason to celebrate depends on whom you ask about whose death at which point in time.

The suicide of Hitler certainly was a horrible tragedy to his close family and those who believed into him — for many others it was a reason to celebrate. Similarily death of a young family member can be traumatic to the max, while the death of grandmother which everybody (including herself) already accepted and comes after a live well lived can be even have a certain beauty to it.

Death is not that simple.

inglor_cz2• 4 years ago

For me, death is not the main problem, but the long, drawn out period of slowly coming apart definitely is. I would very much prefer not to spend last 15 years of my life crippled from multiple degenerative diseases of old age.

Most of the longevity research is trying to stretch healthspan. Stretching lifespan as such is a nice side effect.

We aren't likely to live forever anyway.

noneeeed3• 4 years ago

Having watched my mum, and now my dad decline in old age I couldn't agree more.

I don't like the idea of dying, but the slow slide into immobile sinility is positively terrifying.

I'm in my 40s. I've resolved to look after my health not to live longer, but to extend my health for as long as possible. I'm determined to stay active, mobile and socially/intelectually engaged for as long as I can, partly for my self, but also for my kids.

kiba3• 4 years ago

Living longer is entangled with living healthier anyway.

hulitu2• 4 years ago

A criminal is still a criminal even after death.

space_fountain• 4 years ago

Huge worry for me as well. Let me remind everyone that aging is mostly about entropy, the exact same thing that causes an engine to inevitably wear out and break down happening to you and just like an engine fixing can't ever be as simple as just applying on procedure to all engines, because a million different things can go wrong, and there are a billion different unique people each with slightly different ways to break down. We're starting to go down a road of designer medicine and it seems very possible to me that some day we'll live in a world that a billionaire willing to spend millions a year can solve their aging. Employ a team of researchers to figure out what's breaking and put it right, but that the average person never will be

jamal-kumar• 4 years ago

not content with our blood and feces, now boomers are after our cerebrospinal fluid

tomcam• 4 years ago

Me to my kid: So, did you have a good day?

My kid: Sure, pops, why?

Me：Well, I have a little favor to ask…

strangattractor• 4 years ago

Science has proved once again that we can cure MICE of just about anything. Maybe if we would let them experiment on us we get better human results.

ntoskrnl2• 4 years ago

Unless you're volunteering to let scientists poke at your brain, mice are the best option we have. https://www.yourgenome.org/facts/why-use-the-mouse-in-resear...

savant_penguin• 4 years ago

Funnily enough, some people volunteered to test/develop (I don't recall which) the COVID vaccine but were turned down

briga• 4 years ago

Isn't memory also improved by novelty? For instance, your memories before and after a major life event (say, a surgery) are likely going to be more vivid than your memories around an average day (say, day 4000 sitting in a cage). This makes evolutionary sense--novel events should take up more of your limited memory resources than events you've encountered thousands of times before. It also makes me wonder about the methodology behind this paper.

ada1981• 4 years ago

Andrenochrome?

natly• 4 years ago

On the other hand, just being able to rest whenever you need and get enough sleep and have time for exersize and great food (which rich people have) is already a huge competitive advantage. So a similar effect as this would produce is definitely already happening.

daenz2• 4 years ago

There's a number of comments here poking fun at the "conspiracy theory" aspect of this. Do people really believe it is a "crazy idea" that ultra rich amoral people would fund research into controversial life and health extension, even at the expense at younger people?

black_132• 4 years ago

Jeff will be harvesting the cerebrospinal fluid of his interns

01100011• 4 years ago

I don't have access to the paper but Dr. Charles Brenner seems to think that the study was inadequate: https://twitter.com/CharlesMBrenner/status/15248703642489528...

If you're interested in aging topics, he did a recent debate with Dr. Aubrey de Grey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJIvp_J-kzM

monkeycantype2• 4 years ago

Imagine if it turns out that 30 mls a month of blood loss for a few decades is the reason women live longer than man

google234123• 4 years ago

I doubt it's so simple.

monkeycantype2• 4 years ago

So do I but the idea is amusing

dqpb• 4 years ago

Next YC batch - Uber for youth fluids

fijiaarone• 4 years ago

Zombies around the world are excited by the potential benefits.

Transfusion of brain fluid from young mice improves memory in old mice

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